Entered an open show yesterday with my pup in an AVNSC class and was pleased enough to get 2nd place with her until I came out of the ring.  The judge from the previous breed had been watching and said that the judging was a disgrace as I'd been beaten not by the dog but by the face who was a well known champ show judge.   I'm not happy and it's a pity this sort of thing can't be stamped out by the KC.

No it shouldn't be accepted but to look on the bright side another judge must hve thought highly of your dog, so hopefully at other shows other judges judging your pup will think the same.

It happens, not often, but unfortunately without real proof there's nothing that you can do about it.

Hi Sarahl.

at any show we "pays our money, takes our chance" ;)   Ringside judging - even by another judge - rarely concurs with the opinion of the person who we paid to give an assessment of our dogs!  Particularly at an Open Show I'd view the ringside comments even less importantly as many of the judges at them are trainees and have much less all round judging experience than for eg those judging the Variety classes, Groups & BIS.

Well done on getting 2nd place with your youngster - yes, another judge may have put you 1st but then again yet another may have had you 3rd, 4th or unplaced ;)

Enjoy your showing for what it is and remember it is not nearly as corrupt as some would have us believe!

Good luck, Teri

I agree with Teri -the thing is, you can't KNOW for certain that the judge placed the other dog first for no other reason than that he or she preferred it. :) Judges have very different opinions at times. :)

I agree with the others. Unless the judge outside the ring has actually put hands on your dog and is able to compare it with the other one how can they possibly say what they did. Mind you, I'd take a note of their name and find out where they are judging next, as you never know.... ;)

It may be the person making the comment had their own agenda - maybe hated the person that beat you. The judge who gave you a 2nd must have liked your dog, but liked the other better. No 2 judges agree, its all too easy to make comments outide the ring - often they are best ignored.

I have to agree with Teri, odd occassions I have left the ring and been told I was 'robbed' of a place lol....I shrug, smile and think, next time :)

But on the other hand I do know why my girl Xanthe is beaten into 2nd everytime a certain dog is in the ring ....the judge who placed 1st place told me although Xanthe was better conformation... (he also made both dogs run again and decided that they we equally as good as each other,) he placed the dog 1st over her.... because he like his head AND he shows his little socks off, flutters his big black eyelashes and demands the place.... judge simply said to me " I had to place him" :) I know Xanthe is the better of the two.... they are litter mates and I own and bred them both.... but if both in the ring together, its hands down Ollie wins.....he's just a tart :D

I have to say well done on you 2nd place, simply smile and think.... next time ;)

Don't get me wrong, I was more than pleased to get 2nd with my little horror.  I didn't watch the winning dog move as she went just before me, and it was only until I came out of the ring and was told that it did not move well and shied away from the judge and won because of the face etc that it started to annoy me.  It certainly won't stop me showing but it makes me so angry that it does happen and anyone who says that facey judging doesn't occur is either a face themselves or has a very blinkered view of the show world.  I expect it in champ shows but would have thought open shows were a lot fairer - obviously not.  But, fortunately there are a lot of very honest judges around and it is the dishonest (maybe lacking in confidence) facey judges who lose out in the future as people won't go under them again.    Rant over!!

Oh yes, btw, Kayc - not getting at you or anyone in particular and thanks for your congrats.

>and anyone who says that facey judging doesn't occur is either a face themselves or has a very blinkered view of the show world.

I'm sorry sarahl, but attitudes like that are exactly the ones which ruin the reputation and enjoyment of this hobby for everyone - more particularly those just starting out.

There are weak judges just as there are incompetent judges - they are however very much in a minority.  What is growing at an alrming rate of knots is poor sportsmanship and the inability to accept decisions graciously :(   There has and always will be a *ringside judging panel* that think they know better - the cry of "facey judging" is the usual cop out when they don't win.   Rarely are they as aware of their own dogs' short comings as they are of everyone elses!

regards, Teri
a tad ticked off with the ongoing negativity in the show scene :rolleyes:

I'm sorry I disagree.  For example, a couple I know and met at the show on sunday who have been showing for a long while said they are getting very fed up with the dishonest judging these days and that it is getting a lot worse than it used to be.  Also, please tell me why a champ show judge told some friends of mine that you have to be in the breed for a number of years to get your face known before you start getting placed?   And I'm sure it isn't confined to my breed.  I have no problem getting beaten by a good dog so it is not sour grapes.

I've no idea why a judge would be so cynical as to say that, because it simply isn't true. I've seen total unknowns get high places at their first show - if their dog is good enough!!! ;) ;)

I've also seen the same thing happen which is why I said there are also a lot of honest judges around.

Yep, a couple I sold a dog to took it to it's first all breed open show at two years old (had only entered the club open a few months earlier and not doen well), and took their class, BOB and RBIS.  The judge was Stuart Mallard doing the group and BIS.

They then went to the club champ show where they were secodn under a scandinavian judge who would have penalised for the dog being rather tall.

They went to their first allb reed champ show,a dn got the CC and BOB.

They got their secodn CC the next year and the third th year after.

they either stand at the top of the class or the bottom, as he is the kidn of dog that some judges wil love but others definately won't as he is at one end of the acceptable scale in the breed, so will not appeal to those who prefer dogs at the other end of the standard.

Now you gets ome dogs that appeal more universaly being middle of the road in type/size whatever and these do well under more judges.

Do you believe everything random ring side folks tell you?   Personally as I pay for the opinion of the judge on the day it matters not to me whether 1, 10 or 20 people are up in arms to say what they would have done - should they ever reach the dizzy heights of warranting my dog under them then I'll find out what they think ;)

If you prefer to believe that well known, long term, highly established breeders win only by face then there's little I or anyone else can say to deter you.  IMO such breeders/exhibitors win because they have the ability to consistantly breed and select the best exhibits and have the experience to handle them to perfection :)   We should strive to emulate them rather than begrudge them :rolleyes:

Ill-advised mutterings, inexperience and poor sportsmanship are not, unfortunately confined to one or even a handful of breeds.  More's the pity.

Well said Teri. A gracious loser is a far more attractive person than a triumphant winner.

The current faces were all newcomers at some point, and some very recently.  The owner of that top winning Gian Schnauzer for example.

I have been in my breed now 14 years and didn't have a top winner until 2001.  Now we have had a couple of high profile nice wins, would that make me a face when I win?  I took me 3 generations of breeding and my fourth dog before I had one god enough to win consistently.  Her daughter has recently become a champion, yet she didn't even place in her class at Crufts and was fourth in her class the two times before getting her title.

Does this mean the judges were wrong, or was my bitch not quite at her best or the ones that beat her were just more what the judge was looking for and on form at those shows.

If a newcomer has a good dog and they learn to show it to it's best advantage they will win.  Sometimes it takes them longer than someone who is longer established as usually their handling and presentation skills are not so well honed.  Another advantage many successful exhibitors have is being god at knowing which judges are likely to appreciate their dogs, and also keeping their dog at the peak of fitness, and seldom taking a dog to a show unless it is just right.

But we must remember that most faces do have a high quality dog in the ring (they wouldn't be seen with less) so there dog must of been at least equal quality! :)

I'm sorry but in the majority I think that judges place without looking at faces.  I would also say that face judging does happen but not that much.  I have seen dogs with incorrect coats movement etc. in different breeds win though but this is more of a rarity.

I was told with two of my Pom's that two top Pom people would take them in and make them up.  I would not let them and with one got nowhere but the other one I did manage to get two res. cc's until his showing career ended due to a chronic ear infection that caused his movement to go bad!  Such a shame as he was only two and still had time to do well!

Don't forget though you only see from the outside of a ring.  You do not get to see the dogs mouths, nor get to feel over the dog, a coat can hide a multiple of sins!!

I have a SWD who is absolutely gorgeous and a Spanish Champion but due to him being allowed to dive for bricks etc. since being a puppy his teeth are chipped and were quite discoloured when I first got him, I've managed to get them a lot whiter I presume due to his change of diet etc. but his teeth do let him down.  I'm always getting people ringside saying I'd been robbed when I'm thrown out but I always explain to them that his teeth are his downfall and I know this.  I won't be letting any of my dogs pick up bricks :d :d

Ok i no this does happen but the top breeders generally are bound to have nice dogs, you pay the price and take a change, you always take the best dog home with you, sometimes dogs are better to go over than they actually look from the outside of the ring, i no one of our bitches has suprised a few judges on going over recentally as shes now filled out andgrown up a lot. Dont be hard on yourself, leave the ring head heald high and dont slag anything off at a show, you never no your next judge could be standing behind you listening to what your saying!
Fiona