Hello everyone! (be patient with me this is my first post!)

Our 3 months old Golden Retriever was weighed at the vet last week, 6.6Kgs (we've had her since the 17/6/06). The shop we bought her from gave us the incorrect amount of dry food to give her per meal 100/150grs (she was only 2 months & 3 weeks).

The food packaging recommendation for her weight is 195grs per day (65grs per meal - Science Plan, puppy, large breed).

The shop apologized and advised us to reduce her food accordingly and that there should be no side effect. Well they were wrong now she has started eating her poos and poos everywhere when she was good at going in her little potty area before.

I have increased her food to 100g per meal (3 times a day - 6.30am, 12:15pm, 4:30pm - but I think she is still eating her poos!!!)

Any advice would be welcomed and also how do I found out if she is under/over weight? I can't find a good growth chart for guidance anywhere! Has anyone got a good link?

Thank you.

Dogs are far too individual to say specifically.  Even within a breed there are differences in liveliness and metabolism.  It is apparant, though, from the majority of posts on here that manufacturers estimates are generally way over what any dog will require but beyond that it is trial and error I am afraid. If your puppy is growing nicely and has a covering that allows the ribs to be felt but not seen when standing straight and pooing firm poos you are not far off.  Eating poo has no end of possible causes as a use of the search facility will show, not the least of them being curiosity and habit which is best tackled in a youngster of accompanying them into the garden when they are toileting and removing the poo the moment it is done until the cycle is over.

Hi

First off, welcome! :) Secondly, you bought your puppy from a pet shop?? Im afraid that's probably the worst mistake you ever could have done..... There are a million reasons not to. Done is done and we'll have to hope now your girl will stay healthy.

I have had Golden Retrievers for 25 years, and there are several people on here that breed them (I breed another breed, very different, but still have 2 Goldens), and to me, 6.6 kgs for a 12 week old pup sounds very little -I'd expect her to weigh MORE. I would totally disregard whatever the food packaging says, those amounts are guidelines only and are seldom suitable for most dogs as no two are the same -a lot of the time the amounts stated are too high.  (This is where a nice proper breeder would have come in handy for a start as you would have had somebody to   tell you what amounts she was used to being fed on.)

Feed her 4 meals a day (personally I think at 12 weeks she is a bit too young for 3 and the last meal is much too early in the day -I'd give the last one around 8 pm at the earliest, more likely 9 or 10. I have pups at the moment and they are fed 8.30 am, 12.30 pm, 6 pm and 10.30 pm) and adjust the amount to what seems to suit her. Golden puppies this age should be chubby. My smallest ever Golden weighed 5.5 kg at 8 weeks, my largest 11 kg at 8 weeks. Has she been wormed regularly?

Eating the poo is very common in pups, especially in pups that have ben kept in conditions where they cannot toilet AWAY from their sleeping area when young (typical of puppies from puppy farms, which is what pet shops pups are) -it doesn't have to have anything to do with the food as such. How often does she poo? Once after every meal is perfectly normal in a young pup, and a few times in between too. :) How are you going about toilet training her?

Agree with everything about the post above.  6.6kgs is too small and shops are not the place to buy puppies.  That said, follow the advice above and if you have any problems come back to the board for more advice, because I cannot see you getting it from the shop. Hope everything goes well.  You can turn this around following sound advice.
Also, has she been health checked at you Vets, by now she should have completed her full course of vaccinations.

You could contact the breed club nearest you for advice or Golden Retriever rescue, with any problems you may have due to the pups poor start in life.

If this is any help, we also have a golden puppy and got her when she 8 weeks, 1 day old.  We took her to the vets the following day to get checked over etc and she weighed 6.7 kg then.

Kerri x

To original poster:
Are you sure that your pup is that old. I have heard a load of stories of people buying their pets from pet shops and being told that they are 8 weeks but when taken to the vets they are more like 6 weeks. This would account for the low weight.
Just a thought

All good advice....

There is another reason pups eat poo, well there are several. One is that its seen as being a high value item (puppy sniffs it, owner runs in, all excited and whisks it away, dog thinks 'ahHA... this is good stuff' and in an effort to keep it, will eat it), another is to dispose of the evidence where a dog is punished for the presence of poo so gets rid of it... (some dogs hide it instead of eating it).....

And yet another is that the food is too rich, it comes out the other end with a fairly high calorie content and probably has a lot of sugars and fats left in it so to a dog... especially a hungry dog.... thats gonna be pretty tasty.

Em

Thank you (this is a test :rolleyes: - not sure where to click for my second post!!!)

Dear all!!

Thank you very much for your input I am obviously a little worried now but I would like to clarify a few things/confusions.

We purchased her from [Admin: URL snipped]. I will request written confirmation from them of her birth date, weight and her feeding details prior to being sold to us. They were very helpful, provided us with lots of info (incl. one month free insurance) and micro chipped our puppy. If they have mislead us in anyway I can promise you that I will deal with them.

Amber is growing nicely and has a covering that allows the ribs to be felt but not seen when standing straight and her poos are nice and firm. Maybe she had a poor start in life but I can promise you that we will do our best to overturn the situation although if you could see Amber no one could say that she's an unhappy/under fed dog. She is full of energy, has settled down from day one (even after her first scorching hot journey in the car for 1h30 - not a squeak, good as gold). She appears to love us to bits and we have plenty of love to give back (she has a little wee each time she sees us first thing in the morning and when we come back from work/shop etc.. excitement I guess!!)

From day 1 she had - 3 meals a day 100-150g per meal for 12 days (did not always finished but we had no eating poos problems). I was worried about OVER FEEDING her so you can understand my surprise when I am reading that she is underweight. Her food was reduced only from the 28th after the shop confirmed that it was the right thing to do. However I have re-increased her food to 100g per meal on Sat. 1st July. So hopefully the poo eating will stop. If manufacturers estimates are generally way over what any dog will require (195g) and I am given her (300g+) a day how can I be under feeding her?

We take her to her designated "potty" area, stay with her and pick up each poo (after each meal, when we come home, after a nap or when she goes around in a circle). We do not leave her poos lying around but my daughter's only been doing this for a little while so we've had a few mishaps. Note she has only been eating her poos since 30th (2 days after reducing her food). We know that she wasn't eating her poos before because we had plenty to pick up after work/school (2-3).

I was told to feed her 3 times a day but never after 7pm. Amber has no problem going to the toilet as she has a whole garden to herself away from her sleeping area. I will add a new post shortly re: SLEEPING AREA (will probably need your advice again you lovely people - please don't get mad at me if you think it's a bad idea - do a search on SLEEPING AREA if you want to help/advise me).

Wormed 19th of the month, Flea treatment 3rd of the month. She had her last vaccination on the 24th June (we were told to wait 2 weeks before taking her out in public places, which is why we have not been taking her on walks yet but she is lucky to have a garden while she waits). The Vet gave her a check up and weighed her and said that she looked healthy (I will check with her again on 8/7/06 to see if she can clarify this age mystery before increasing her food to 4 meals a day).

Saturday will be her first day out in the real world on a leash - should be interesting - she still thinks the leash is a toy even though we have been practicing walkies in the garden).

Thank you again to you all, you have given me plenty to think about.
Bye bye from Amber and family x

Lets put ti another way you love your puppy right?

Now if she was a really good example of her breed, you had shown or worked her and did well, had her hip scored, eye tested etc, and then decided to have a litter from her. 

You go to the time and trouble to research the best boy in the country (maybe overseas) in your and experts opinion designed to hopefully produce the best puppies ever.

Would you then sell the pups to a retail outlet who would then sell them to anyone with the money?

Or would you agonise over choosing just the right homes for your precious pups into whom you had poured time, money knowledge and love.  Would you not want to know where they were and how they are doing.

Breeders (those worthy of that description) would never dream of selling pups in this way.  the only ones that would are those who view puppies as a product.  Those who do this will be looking at the bottom line minimum input for maximum profit.

Breeding dogs properly is rarely profitable.

I suggest you look at the links below which explain things better.

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeder.html
http://st15.startlogic.com/~justonel/breeder.html
http://www.dogplay.com/Breeding/index.html

Now we just need to make sure you make the best of a bad start and I strongly advise you keep Insurance current on your pup, as this breed, especially bred purely commercially as yours has obviously been may be predisposed to a number of health issues.  The main ones being Hip and Elbow Dysplasia and possibly eye defects.  Also the best of temperaments and character is unlikely to have been a top priority for her breeder, so the most careful training and socialisation will give the best chance of success.

Noticed they can't even SPELL the breeds they sell.........

Thank you for your advice Brainless!

We have made our mistake and there is nothing we can do to change that. We could never look at our puppy's debut as a bad start (we can only hope that she didn't suffer 2 much) it was a very special day for our 11 year old daughter and us. We will indeed learn to live with our mistake and look after her health as we would have even if she came from a good breeder (insurance already sorted out with... oupss better not say the name!)

Sadly learning about GOOD breeders now will not change the fact that Amber was purchased from a shop (which was recommended to us by one of my husband's work colleague - we will indeed have words!!). I contacted the shop again today to find out if our puppy comes from a medium (25kgs) range or larger breed and requested details of her parents but they point blank refuse to say/help. I will continue to investigate and we have also contacted puppywatch for advice.

I've been on the www.hillspet.co.uk info page re feeding/weight and it appears that Amber should be approx. 9kgs. at 3 months (if she's a medium breed). As she was 6.6kgs 2 weeks ago hopefully she should be around 8kgs now (will find out on Sat. at the vet).

I am so sorry but I have never heard of puppy farming until it was too late. Why aren't there any adverts on TV just like the ones raising money for the RSPCA? If they were less people would made the mistake we did.

Now I do understand your anger.

Regarding her temperament/character all I can say is that she is loving, playful, relax, does not bark like mad for no reason (even when the neighbours chat to us over the fence), she doesn't panic and enjoys her showers... I know it is a bit early to say but let's hope that it doesn't change...

We'll continue seeking advice everywhere we can. Thank you again!!

I don't think anyone thinks your puppies bad start began when she met you and her daughter :) far from it.  I am interested in what you say about not enough publicity about the dangers of buying from puppy farmers, have you never noted the adage "always see the mother when buying a puppy".  Not critising you at all if you haven't :) but I always felt that was pretty well put about these days by various animal welfare agencies and I am finding it a bit disappointing that perhaps only those of us that already know these things notice these bits of information.  Or perhaps you saw it and didn't really appreciate what they were getting at for instance if it just meant "then you will know what puppy will look like"  Just curious and I think the information may be helpful to those who work to spread the the word.

Don't know if you have noticed Isabel, but the 'warnings' in the newspapers, mags etc seem to be getting smaller in font size, and pushed out of the way in a lot of the free ads papers.... In one local one you need a magnifying glass as well as the new reading glasses ( they take some getting used to ;) ) Maybe they dont like the fact people read these, and it maybe puts the puppy farmers off that advertise with them :( 

Trouble is, a lot of people look for things they want off the net, and if you don't know about breeding, these places look ideal! Well cared for and bred puppies, fully vaccinated, caring breeders, 12mths return (at some) with a money back guarentee or exchange with others.....the expert advice of qualified pet shop owners, and the cracker...VET checked puppies and premises. Well, if a vet has checked them all, and visits reg, they MUST be good, musnt they? After all, they are health checked. Can so eaisly see how innocent people can be tempted to buy. Pet shops should not be selling puppies, kittens, or anything live to my mind.

OP, just carry on as you are with the puppy, lots of love, training, interaction with other dogs and people once the jabs are sorted. There are some here who know the breed intimatly, so any advice ...ask...:)

Yes her bad start is not your doing, your the one picking up the pieces, and the sad fact is that people only get a dog every 10 to 15 years it is easy for such bad breeders to find a market.

What you now need to do is to try to lessen any disadvantages the pup is saddled with by it's breeding.

Chances are it will not have had any socialisation so this aspect is now vital.

Cleanliness is natural for pups, but those kept in cramped unsanitary conditions learn  not to mind being dirty, so housebreaking can take longer.

Check the Small print in the Insurance and if it does not have true for life cover change it.

Pet Plan, and Pinnacle definitely do for life policies and there are others too.

You could do worse than purchase a book called the Perfect Puppy by Gwen Bailey, and also have a look at her website for training tips and possibly for training classes (you will need them as much or more than the puppy) :D
http://www.puppyschool.co.uk/

Just remember any perceived anger is not aimed at you or your family or the poor puppy, just the kind of puppy producers and retailers who take advantage of people who haven't realised that this is no way to breed, rear and sell pups who are destined to become family members.  It is the way that food is produced.

Hello Isabel,

have you never noted the adage "always see the mother when buying a puppy".

What is an adage? (a badge or advert? sorry about my ignorance). And would this have appeared on TV or in newspapers?

If I've seen it than obviously it didn't click. There should be more warnings on TV, Animal Planets, Kids Channels, Vets, Dog food packaging (I've been going to Sainsburys for 15 years and if there was something in the "PET" section we would have seen it cause we've always had fishes.

I am still so upset about this!! My main concern right now is our puppy but if I can be of any help or sign a online/email petition or whatever to make people more aware then I would happily forward it to all my contacts.

It's a slogan.  I thought it was in fairly common currency but I guess I am looking at it from the angle of someone already in the know :)

insurance already sorted out with... oupss better not say the name!

Do make sure that it's one that gives life long cover.  Many, if you make a claim, will exclude the condition next year or stop paying when a certain cost limit is reached.  You need backup having bought from such a source.

"if she's a medium breed"

Er, IF she's a Goldie, she's a large breed.

Of course, if she doesn't even have papers, you've no way of knowing exactly what she is.  The reason she is so small could well be because she's not even a full pedigree Goldie. 

If you are feeding her Hills, I think that's one good reason she could be eating her own poos.  Hills is not a good quality food, but is flogged by vets who are on commission.  I'd try a change of food to something like Arden Grange or James Wellbeloved and see if it continues. 

  Jumps up and down arms waving ....to try Arden grange :D add a bit of mince too, raw of course ;) build the pup up! :D :D

Hello,
This is what the "expert" operator at Hill's Plan online support told me. She said she is MEDIUM based on her current 6.6Kgs weight for a 3 months old Golden Retriever and stated that she will probably end up a 25Kg adult. Thanks for confirming what we thought was right from begining :-)

This is what the "expert" operator at Hill's Plan online support told me. She said she is MEDIUM based on her current 6.6Kgs weight for a 3 months old Golden Retriever and stated that she will probably end up a 25Kg adult.

Line, I see where yore coming from, but my Golden who was the smallest I've had who was 5.5 kgs at 8 weeks ended up as 25 kgs. A Golden isn't meant to be a medium sized breed, so my earlier point was that either she is younger than the shop said, which is quite possible, or she's unusually small or she's not purebred. I still wouldn't worry about weighing/measuring food etc, as long as you feed her what keeps her in good condition it shouldn't really matter how little or much it is. :) It can vary so much from pup to pup. You can have 2 dogs of the same size and same breed, age and sex and they may still not need the same amount of food.

I agree, irrespective of where they are on anybodies charts or guidelines better to feed to eye and individual growth patterns.

Oh Dear! Guess what our Vet sells!!!
We will gradually change her food to Arden Grange or Wellbeloved asap (eventhough she seem to have stopped eating her poos since we increased her food by introducing 4th feed at 10pm).
Thanks.

I've been on the www.hillspet.co.uk info page re feeding/weight and it appears that Amber should be approx. 9kgs. at 3 months (if she's a medium breed). As she was 6.6kgs 2 weeks ago hopefully she should be around 8kgs now (will find out on Sat. at the vet).

A Golden Retriever is a large breed, not medium -size is determined by the breed. Adult height for a Golden bitch is 51 to 56 cms, and normal weight 25-35 kg approx.

Please don't think that any anger is pointed at you.  Any anger is directde at the puppy farmers who have no regard for our beloved breeds.  I too have made the same mistake as you but now 'campaign' to try to bring this sad situation to other less knowledgeable people. I loved my puppy farmed girl even with all her problems, so enjoy.

Hi Amber and Family!
First and foremost welcome!! :D hope you enjoy your time here (its Hive of amazing infomation!!)
  I'm afraid (and please dont think Im being 'sniffy' ;) ) that by putting up the link to shop you purchased your little one, your (inadvertently, I know) advertising them..and Im sure you can appreciate that all things considered its not really the best way to acquire a puppy.Its probably too late now for you to edit your post, so Ive taken the liberty of flagging it up to the forum Admin to edit it.Just so you dont get confused when it disapears!!
Good luck with your new little bundle of energy! sounds like she's found a nice caring home.
(you can take her out in a bag, or your arms..the sooner they get to acquaint themselves with the World and socialise, the better!! :D )

Thank you very much HUSKYGAL for flagging me and thank you ADMIN for removing the link so quickly!! Sorry about this, I simply didn't think!!!

Hi

It does sound like you are trying to do your very best for your puppy :) , but the place you got her from made my stomach turn.  Those pups will all have originated in puppy farms. No responsible breeder would EVER supply a pet shop. Here is one link to read more:  http://www.puppywatch.org.uk  Beware, it will probably make you cry.

One huge problem you have is that you can be 100 % certain that your puppy's parents are not hip scored, elbow scored and eye tested, and as such you could end up with very serious problems later in life. Puppy farmers only breed to make money, they don't care about health, any bitch that can produce pups will do so until she no longer can cope. Sorry to sound harsh, I'm not having a go at you at all, but people need educating about this serious problem, and the first step to stop puppy farming is to never buy puppies from pet shops. If nobody buys the pups, there will be no market for them.  I bet you even paid more than you would from a responsible breeder. I have a young Golden whose father is a full Champion, his parents are hip scored with below breed average scores, elbow scored, eye tested and heart ested, he came tattooed, KC registered, insured, 3 large carrier bags full of stuff such as food, lead, toys, brush, comb etc, a contract, 30 pages worth of personally written instructions, and advice and life long support and friendship from the breeder. He cost me £550.

Like others have mentioned, I would guess your pup is probably younger than they said due to her low weight. Perhaps only 8 weeks. I'm sure you're doing fine with the amounts :) but you do need to feed her 4 times a day and definitely after 7 pm -it will be a far too long a break with no food otherwise. Compare it to babies who have to be fed during the night to start with.  Yes some people, like the shop, say not to feed too late -that is in an attempt to have an empty stomach at bed time so there will be no accidnets during the night, but it's not a good way to do it and not fair on the pup.

Pups are normally wormed at 3, 5, 7, 9 and 11 weeks of age, and you need to make sure it is with a wormer from the vet and not pet shop bought ones as the over the counter wormers are seldom effetive. But youv'e seen the vet so I'm sure you got the right stuff from them. :)

I'd totally disregard anything the shop says, chances are you will not get the truth anyway as they won't know, and any papers are VERY unlikely to be correct.  You've found a great place to ask questions. :) The Golden Retriever Club's website has plenty of good advice too, and you can always phone any of their committee membrs for help and advice too.

http://www.thegoldenretrieverclub.co.uk  Click on "Puppy news" for info.

You can start carrying her around outdoors after the first vacciantion to get her used to different places, noises etc -as long as she isn't on the ground or meeting other dogs that is fine, and the sooner socialisation starts the better. Once fully vaccinated she can have 5 minutes of walk per months of life, i.e. 3 months of age equals no more than 15 minutes of walk. Goldens aren't fully grown until at least 18 months old and soft puppy bones can be damaged when still growing, so it is important not to over exercise, but you need to get out and about all the same.  See if you can find a good puppy class to enrol in, where they train with positive methods, lots of treats and praise.

Good luck!

I saw the link earlier and unfortunately as Goldmali says they only purchase puppies in to sell, they do not breed and they don't care about health checks and the like they are there purely for profit.  I made the same mistake myself many years ago and learned from my mistake ( I ended up with a bad temperament dog). You certainly would be better off listening to people on this forum than contacting the shop as they really don't care about your concerns (been there, done that, got the T-shirt).  One thing for sure you can love her, which is more than she would have received,  and you can certainly get her in a better condition. Goldmali is right though, she must be socialized as soon and as much as possible, because puppies bred from these environments can cause you awful problems.  Good luck and keep in touch.
Alison

Going back to the issue of your dogs weight and diet... she doesnt sound underweight to me, she sounds fine.

Ignore what is said about how much a pup should weigh at what age, aside from the fact that all puppies are different and will put on weight at different rates, yours SOUNDS fine, she isnt fat, she isnt scrawny, so thats all good.

Bearing in mind her unknown origins, she may not be 100% GR, or she may be, but be bred from a rather small line... somethign ive seen a lot in pups coming from the two well known North West based puppy shops (think Samoyeds that look more like german spitz, tiny yorkies, cockers the same size as small jrt's etc)....

Her poo eating may well be that she is used to more food and is hungry- or it may be that her food is just too tasty second time round, which would hint that it contains things that are not being digested fully.

Have a search on here about the many kinds of foods and also the barf or raw feeding method, theres somethign to suit everyone.

Again bearing in mind her background, she now needs the best possible of everything - keep her lean for a start, if other dog walkers say shes a bit slim then in fact she is probably FINE (because most people are used to fat dogs unfortunately), if she has poor hips and elbows then keeping her lean will be the best for her.

Keep her exercise restricted - no galloping up and down stairs, or endless haring about with other dogs, limited on lead walking, you can exercise her brain by doing lots of little training sessions (look up clicker training and reward based training on here and on the net)...limiting her exercise in this way until she is fully grown (increase it gradually as she ggrows) will also minimise stress on the joints.

Get her out and about socialising now... never mind about the vaccinations, yes theres a risk, but if you stay sensible, dont put her on the floor in an area frequented by a lot of unknown dogs etc, but carry her around, get her meeting people, dogs you know to be haelthy, buses, cars, noisy roads, everything and anything you can think of, and make it REALLY rewarding for her, you can really limit future problems.

When she is safe to go out and meet other dogs, get her off lead asap, she will still want to be near you whilst shes small so take advantage of that to teach her a solid recall NOW - and also teach her how to meet other dogs nicely.

Em

>When she is safe to go out and meet other dogs, get her off lead asap, she will still want to be near you whilst shes small so take advantage of that to teach her a solid recall NOW - and also teach her how to meet other dogs nicely<

I so strongly agree with this statement! I start all of my dogs on off lead walks from the very beginning,and thats the way they have stayed into adulthood. Dogs that have been made to stay on the lead for their first 12-18mths of life are so much harder to get to recall than the dog who has always been off lead. Being off lead is no big deal to these dogs who are used to it,they dont seem to feel the need to bolt off as soon as that lead is un-attached,like the dogs who are always restricted on walks.

As for the hills food,i agree with the others in that it is not a decent food,there are so many better options out there for you to choose from.You pay through the nose for hills food and yet the ingredients used are far from quality.The ingredients do not justify the price tag :(

Here are but a few foods you may want to consider-

JWB-http://www.wellbeloved.co.uk

Arden Grange-http://www.ardengrange.com

Wafcol salmon&potato- http://www.wafcol.co.uk

Berrimans- http://www.berrimans.net

Naturediet-http://www.naturediet.net

I don't have a growth chart as such, but we have a 3 month old Golden Retriever who is 27 1/2lbs which is just over 12 kgs.   We visited the vet for his one and only puppy vaccine on Tuesday of this week and she thought he was the right weight for his frame.   So even though your puppy seems to be small for her age the best thing would be to go to the vet and get her checked out thorougly - they'll be able to advise and also advise on food etc.  Females are usually slightly smaller than males too!
Maria