Hello, I just wanted some more advice on my new puppy and 2 yr old bitch. I started a thread about her being a great big wimp and letting him take food out of her mouth (I cant find the thread to add to it) but anyway, you all told me this was normal behaviour. So I am generally very happy about how they are getting along, the older bitch, Amber lets him snuggle up to her now and very often starts the play sessions, she still gets lots of time and attention on her own so seems quite happy. My query is with the pup (14(ish) weeks, he is a rescue so we not entirely sure) however, as I fully expected he likes to play by biting at Amber, pulling on her ears and anywhere he can, but after a while he seems to get really carried away and kind of goes for her...they will go from happily rolling about together, with about the same amount of mouthing at each other, then Alfie (pup) will suddenly start really snapping at her and making that horrible snarling noise as he leaps at her neck and face, really loudly yapping and snapping at her...Is this still part of playing? he definitely changes from the normal mouthing type of play that we see most of the time with them, its after a while he just seems to suddenly change and start the growling and snapping. I am experienced with dogs, but have always owned big gentle softies and have never seen or heard this type of play before. As I write this I know that it sounds like the puppy just getting excited, but when I see it, he sounds so viscious and I know if we were out and another dog did this type of thing to her I would think "what a snappy little bugger" and probably avoid it from then on. Now obviously I know he is still such a baby, and probably totally normal for a puppy to do this but I just want some reassurance really, I so desperately want them to have a good relationship, and Ive never owned 2 dogs at once before so never really experienced this. When he gets to this stage, I can see that Amber is uncomfortable as she tries to get away from him, and my husband kind of shouts to stop play. They both then settle until next time.

So what I want to know is what should be done when he gets carried away like this, clearly Amber wants to get away from him, so do we hold back the squirming puppy until Amber gets to the safety of her bed...or do we just break up play by distracting them with something else, OR do we do nothing, stop worrying and let them get on with it? (hoping that Amber will actually tell him herself that she is not happy when he turns into Cujo?)

Any advice would be appreciated!

Our girl has never told a pup off until at the least 14months of age (slow maturing breed), when it does get too overbearing(you can just see it in her eyes) i remove her from the pup asap, theres play and theres play when it gets too much shes taken away.

Its worked very well for us and the telling off has come once the pup has reached some level of maturity and can understand the consequences of their actions at such a young age they don't so we feel its best to remove both from a situation that maybe at risk of esculating.

Any time that your adult dog wants to get away and have some peace and quiet, she should be able to.  Being forced to spend every day with a puppy is about the equivalent of people being forced to spend every day with a toddler - enough to drive even the sanest person mad

I wouldn't worry too much about your puppy - this just sounds like play fighting, although particularly intense.  Don't forget that your puppy is more comfortable with your adult dog and more familiar with her than with any other dog now, and just because he tries to play with her like this, doesn't mean he will try to play with other dogs like this. 

If your adult dog keeps ignoring him and trying to get away when he becomes like this, he will very quickly learn that it's not rewarding to behave in this way - because everyone ignores him and the dog he wants to play with, leaves.  So he will probably stop doing it pretty soon anyway.

The most important thing is to make sure your adult dog can go somewhere to get some peace and quiet away from him, whenever she wants to.

I know it sounds worrying when you hear all the vocal noise and nipping, draggings etc, but again it is normal puppy behaviour, pups can play extremely aggressively, pups of the same age who grow up in a litter together will drag each other around by the ears and spend most of the day tearing into each other, so an adult dog is well able and capable of tolerating the bites and nips and ear tugging, their coat and skin can easily withstand the playfighting, it may not be our choice of play, but this is how dogs play and grow up together.

Some pups are much more aggressive in play than others, just like our own children, (which is why young children and pups should never be left alone) however as already said, your older dog needs time out from the pup, an older dog should tell the pup where to go when it has had enough, otherwise you need to step in, take over from the play yourself with a tug rope or training games and as suggested by onetwothree there should always be a place for your older dog and also the pup to seek solitude and time alone from each other.

Some pups are just more dominant than others in play, it is nothing to worry about as long as your older dog is not distressed, she is taking it on the chin just like we do with our own children, your older dog is being a great role model, a nice passive older dog will teach the younger to act the same way when mature, your pup will learn an awful lot from her.

Thanks again for all your help. We definitely make sure that Amber has time away from the pup when she wants it, she spends a lot of time during the day in the garden with her 'dad' doing the gardening while the pup is happy to be inside with me. Im suprised, actually at how the puppy seems to not actually bother and pester her throughout the day, it is normally Amber that grabs the toy to start the play, it is just whilst they are playing that Alfie seems to get carried away. So I will make sure that when Alfie gets to this stage and I can see that Amber has had enough that I will get involved and make sure she can get up on to the sofa (the pup cant reach her there!) and have a rest. The pup is very good in the fact that when Amber does get up on the sofa, Alfie is happy to chase around toys on his own or play with us and doesnt bother her. It was just his style of play when he gets going that was worrying me, but like Onetwothree has said, Im sure he will soon learn that Amber wants to end it when he gets like that anyway. Thanks for reassuring me again!

Hi Shannon

I have noticed that there is a distinct difference in how the males play, compared to bitches. Ours is a real 'boy' thinks he's a regular fine young turk

Although China will tell him in no uncertain terms now if it has gone too far, I will intervene with a 'that's enough' (especially when they are both going overboard) and stop play. I've always had two dogs, and have always had to do this and interrupt a kind of 'tears before bedtime' scenario! It's not a bad thing anyway for you to call time out when YOU want play to stop. If you need to engage Alfie in play yourself fine. If you can encourage him (and her) to relax and settle when asked, maybe with a chew, so much the better. My girl is 31/2 and the laddo is 15 months. I've noticed that she engages him in play at least as often as he starts it. If I'm honest, she's the one that gets rougher than him now. However, as I said before, as a youngster he could do anything, and did. The times I caught him wearing a 'beard' of her tail hair, ripped out as she went past him is beyond counting. I was sure I would have a long coat GSD with a whippet tail

Just make sure that Amber gets her time out when she needs it. She is clearly quite happy with the pup if she is initiating play with him.

Kat