Hello,
I have got a 16 week BC pup. He is very boisterous and quite full of himself just like most pups :rolleyes:. Anyway, we have been going to puppy classes with him. Last week we had a different instructor to normal, she tried to look into his mouth which I was not too sure about as he is teething but she said it would be fine. He snapped at her so she grabbed his lead and said "shall I rag him?". I told her very firmly no, it would not achieve anything and that I would deal with him. I told him off and he allowed me to look into his mouth. By the end of the night as I was not too happy with his behaviour I got three different people to look at him which went fine.

This week when our usual trainer returned, she had heard about his behaviour, he barked at another dog so she told him off and he bit at mid air towards her (kind of stoppy child saying don't you tell me off!). She then came over and tried to pull him about by his lead. I told her that I was not happy with her telling him off like that and that I only wanted me to tell him off (and not by pulling his lead). She said that the puppy had to be told off by different peolple not just me so that if he turned on me and attacked me then he would be able to be told off by somebody else??

I don't agree with her methods at all. I have only got 1 week of puppy classes left and after that we will be in a class with a better trainer. Other than this he is the perfect pup and by far the best in the class!!

Am I right? Is he just being a puppy? Should I let her tell him off?
GG

Hi GG. Not impressed with this trainer to be honest. When bobs was teething quite badly and was obviously sore, I left his mouth alone. Also, yes puppies need to learn what they can and can't do but this trainer is coming on way too heavy handed. If you're not comfortable with it then give it a miss next week. You have a lovely dog in Echo, you've done it right with him so stick with your gut feeling about the new pup. He's come from a good home, so your okay there. Yes all dogs are different, some people have their views on how a puppy should be treated but go with your instinct. Firm but fair is the best way to go. This pupy is sixteen weeks, just got used to his lead, learning about being handled, socialising with other dogs and people etc. It's a lot to take in for the little guy, don't let this trainer undo the good you have done. As for being obedient for others, yes I agree, but if your dog was to turn on you (like that would happen) I would doubt that it would listen to anyone else. Also this is a 16 week pup that you are building a bond with and training, let alone anyone else.
Remember it's your pup, do it your way and take advice from people your happy with in the way they are with their dogs.

You are correct.  I would be very worried about staying with the club if they allow trainers to do that sort of thing. It is rubbish to tell you that someone else need to correct him incase he turned on you :rolleyes:

However, you need to stamp out unwanted behaviour while he is that age,  I would put the puppy into the flat position (down, but on his side).  Not roughly, but firmly and hold him there until he stops struggling, don't speak to him, then gently release him and gently stroke him if he behaves. Everytime he does something like biting or snapping put him back.  Be careful not to over use this position, it is not for normal puppy naughty behaviour, but the serious stuff.

Hi there

I would certainly not be happy with somebody behaving like that with one of my dogs.  Your puppy is still a baby and, as such, will go through a series of behaviours in which he will test what he can - and can't get away with.  Reward based training is by far the best way to train your puppy and I am sure you recognise that.  How would they feel if their mouth was sore and somebody started prodding about in it.  He is still very young so he reacted the only way he knows how - with his mouth.  He will also still be mouthing which of course you will be training him not to do.  Terrible that a trainer wouldn't recognise this!!!  Then for the original trainer to start hauling him about on the lead is absolutely shocking and what she said about the dog needing to be told off by lots of other people in case it attacked you.  Well, that just beggers belief!!  A load of old rubbish if you ask me!!  It never ceases to amaze me the type of people that hold training classes and get away with taking people's money.  Puppy classes are just about learning the basics and, while it is right and proper that your dog should let you check his mouth, ears, feet etc., at this age you can't really expect anything more than him letting you do it.  KC Bronze good citizen only has the owner checking the dog's mouth.  Other people checking it doesn't come in until much later on in silver!!!  Even then, your dog will have grown up a bit and have learned to trust people.  He won't learn to trust people if people start treating him like that;  you could end up with a dog that is frightened.  They should be ashamed of themselves.

I would stick to my guns and actually not go to the last class as a form of protest.  Don't expect too much of your puppy at this age but obviously don;t encourage him to play bite etc., and teach him bite inhibition.  Good puppy books tell you how to do this, you don;t need some inexperienced trainer advising you otherwise.  I am sure there are plenty of trainers around that behave like this and I suppose its jsut the luck of the draw who you get.  That is the reason I always advise people to visit a class first before enrolling.  That way they can see that all the puppies are waggy tailed and how the trainers relate to the owners.  Poor you.

Kind regards
Annie

Hello,
I am glad that you all seem to agree with me. I have never had this trainer before this 6 week course and I won't be having her again . When we move up to bronze class the trainer is much better and really nice with the dogs :-).

I have been using the method described by sandrah and it does work with him. he also gets lots of positive reinforcement with treats and playing.

I have just been to ringcraft training and he was perfect (another trainer). He looked over my puppy but not the mouth and he (puppy) was really good.

My puppy is a really happy chappy and I don't want to spoil it :-D

Thanks
GG

There is wonderful information and advice on bite inhibition on this site. 

http://www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/berner1/bitestop.htm

Personally I would never put and hold any dog or pup into the flat position (domination) - especially for snapping.  Pretty soon the pup will anticipate what you're going to do, if its a timid pup he'll hit the deck or try to hide, if he's bolshier he's likely to either run or fight back :rolleyes:

When dealing with really bad behaviour I've found 'time out' really effective at this age (and older)  if you've got a good relationship with your pup then the worst thing (in his little mind) is to be away from you ;) so a few minutes in another room with no attention or toys (still able to see you tho) is enough to let him know something isn't acceptable.  True, he may be in and out like a yo-yo some days but if you respond with a loud 'ouch' and put him in another room he'll soon get the message and you won't spoil your relationship ;)

regards
dill

I don't think the poster was talking about bite inhibition.  This puppy was snapping at other people and dogs when at classes. 

In a 16 week old pup this has got to be nipped in the bud quickly.  I certainly wouldn't recommend the flat position for normal puppy mouthing.

I don't see it as domination, it is very calming for a young puppy and the quiet praise afterward is rewarding.

I too wouldn't physically make a puppy adopt a submissive pose - if the pup needs to be put there then he's being dominated /  bullied / whatever you choose to call it. It's only effective if the pup chooses that position. The OP's pup was only snapping at the trainer when she did things he wasn't happy with, and he was forced to defend himself. To use more physical force would IMO be counter-productive. :(

At that age a loud "OUCH!" followed by a calm "Nooooo, gently" is far more effective.

Perhaps I have been around Border Collies too long.  Unfortunately I have seen too many pups allowed to get away with this behaviour and later on the owners regretted it big time.  With a Border Collie, snapping needs to be addressed quickly, as a breed they will be only too happy to carry on with this type of behaviour as the norm.

Doing what the trainer did is physical force and I certainly would not tolerate it.  Placing your puppy on it's side while it calms down is not.  A submissive pose is putting the puppy on its back and holding it there, I am not suggesting that. 

Teaching bite inhibition towards you at home is entirely different to what the poster is describing.

Anyway, that is my view and not one I would give if the breed was different.

Um....

HOW exactlyl do you 'place your puppy on it's side while it calms down' WITHOUT physical force??

Come and try that with mine, both now and when he was 16 weeks old and full of beans, full of feistyness and 'you say that but i say NO BARK BARK BARK'....

I never pinned him down, i did occasionally restrain him in my arms until he stopped but thats ENTIRELY  a different thing (and was necessary for his safety at the time).

I can tell you though, there was definately never any option of  'placing' him anywhere, had i wanted to lie him down flat and have him stay there id have had to sit on him, and that is most definately, physical force.

Whehter you call it pinning down or placing them on their side, or alpha rolling, it all boils down to a VERY loud and scary message of domination from the owner and given the OP's dog is air snapping in defence, i think upping the ante with MORE confrontation and MORE force will simply breed more defensive or even aggressive behaviour.

Em

What does she mean???  *She said that the puppy had to be told off by different people not just me so that if he turned on me and attacked me then he would be able to be told off by somebody else??*

Is she mad, you did say you had a 16 week BC, not a deranged rabid wolf??

ruuuuunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!

What I'd suggest is that you take a little time each day to go over him and handle him - paws, tail, back, sides, legs, head, ears etc and mouth and make it very pleasant. It may be a good idea to have a treat pot with something very smelly in it - liver, chicken etc and each time you touch part of him ie a toe on his paw, say "good!" and give him a treat. Then the next toe, give him a treat, (make sure the treats are tiny or you will have a porky pup :P )...

If he is at all nervous, don't do it all at once, start small and build up, a little every day.

After a few days, he will know what to expect (I also say "paw, mouth, ears, tail" etc) and you can then let a person he trusts do it, then gradually go onto other people maybe other dog owners (ensure they will follow your requests so that  you remain in control though and it goes without saying, avoid anyone rough.

Over time the treat pot can disappear and you can reward with one or two treats from your pocket or a toy instead. Eventually you should find he stays still and accepts and even enjoyts this handling :)

Lindsay
x

In a 16 week old pup the pup needs to be treated like a pup.  In the litter snapping and biting would lead to a loud yelp and play being stopped and the pup would be left alone.  If the mother was to tell off the pup then this would be done very quickly - a quick growl or grumble is usually enough.  Speaking sharply to the pup and taking it out of the situation (all fun stops) is more than enough at this age.  Don't forget that many pups are likely to nip at this age as they haven't all learned bite inhibition.  In actual fact it's good that they nip and mouth so they can learn (be taught ;) ) to be really gentle with their often very strong jaws and teeth.  This is the best way of ensuring the dog will never bite someone badly - any bite would automatically be inhibited ;)   The dog that never learns bite inhibition is the one more likely to bite badly later on.

I have taught him bite inhibition very well as he is quite a cuddly boy and it leads to him chewing on my arm which I stopped quite early on. He allows me to go over him thoughrly and I give him lots of treats and play for it.;-) He allows everybody else to look at him but I don't let them (except in the problem situation where I made a mistake) to look at his mouth as he is quite sore. He allows me to gently look into his mouth so that I can keep an eye on his teeth and if he has tried to snap (which he did at first) then I told him a firm no and then he let me.
We have had a wonderful day today as we took him to a companion dog show and lots of people said hello to him and he was really good.
I am sure that his snaping incident was (hopefully) a one off and that he will not turn into a rabid wolf :-D :-D Maybe a gummy bear !! ;-)
GG

So pleased to hear this, puppy training classes are supposed to be fun, social events to help puppy and owner learn some valuable lessons in a nice friendly atmosphere, what you described was nothing more than bullying and the trainer dominating the pup, this is not the way to train, I have never nor will ever train a pup that way, so don't expect others to do so.

Your pup is a pup and will learn everything through praise and reward, training is supposed to be fun for dog and owner and gives so many rewards.

You already know what is good training and what is bad it is how it makes you feel.

Enjoy your pup and hope you find someone more patient. Above all else have fun. :-)