Hi Guys

Sorry if i ramble but i am really upset over something that happened this morning. Alfie my gsd who is now almost 2 yrs old is an amazing boy, really obedient, people and dog friendly, perfect doggy manners etc and has never been a problem so i can't believe that i am typing this asking for help.

On our walk this morning (on lead) , we were walking along a narrow footpath when i saw a school boy approaching on his bike, the pathway was wide enough for him to pass by but only just so i moved to one side and put Alfie in a sit, he was facing me and had his back to the boy.What happened next i am in complete shock about. The boy passed and thanked me for moving and then said to me 'cool dog'! and before i could say anything he stroked Alfie on the head and then it happened. Alfie looked at me, seemed to realise that it wasn't me touching him and flew at this boy, it all seemed to be in slow motion but what happened was he managed to grab hold of the boys sleeve and he shook really fiercely, there was no noise to speak of and it was over in a flash.

Obviously i apologised hugely to the little boy and asked if he was ok and checked his arm etc etc, he wasn't hurt, there wasn't a mark on his arm but i think that was pure luck to be honest.

I have no idea why this happened but i am so upset. The only thing i can think of and i may be clutching at straws here is that some of the local kids were teasing Alfie a couple of weeks ago through the garden fence and it got to the point where i had to address the issue with the parents of these kids. This boy wasn't involved in the teasing although he did look familiar.

I am so worried and was shaking all the way home as to what could have happened and i feel so sorry for the boy, who remarkably shrugged it off and went on his way, but what now?

He was at the vets on Friday so i know there is nothing physically wrong with him and to be honest this is completely out of character, he has never shown any signs of aggression ever.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated?

Poor you, I can understand you being so upset. How is Alfie, has he been ok since? Although this was an awful experience for you both you must remember that the boy was ok, this time. You must'nt punish yourself over this as that wont help anyone but if you focus on the positive, at least you know to be extra careful in similar situatuions, particularly involving children.

Im no expert in behavioural situations but I thought I would reply to give you a little support. Although im not the expert, I do know that your boy will take his lead from you in the future (pardon the pun) so its important that you try not to seem nervous in these situations. Otherwise he could pick up on this and react in order to 'protect' you. It sounds to me like you did everything correctly and therefore you cant blame yourself.

Could Alfie have been frightened? You said he was in a sit and he had his back to the boy. Maybe he found it a little disconcerting that he knew it wasnt you touching him and wasnt sure who it was. Im really not sure of the answer but this was just a thought. Im sure someone far more qualified will be along to answer your question shortly.

Best of Luck x

Hi Caroline

Thanks for your reply and for trying to reassure me, i must admit this has been on my mind all day. Alfie was fine afterwards, infact it was as if nothing had happened afterwards. I did wonder about him being frightened as he had his back to the boy and couldn't see him, i also wondered if maybe the pedal of the bike caught him as he went passed and he reacted to this. The reason i had him facing me was that i didn't want to frighten the boy at all, Alfie is a HUGE shepherd (52 kgs) and very dark and other kids have made comments in the past about him  looking scary so i thought if he was looking at me then the boy might feel more comfortable about passing us in such a tight space. I know what you mean about him taking the lead from me but i think i would die if this were ever to happen again. He is lying at my feet looking up at me with his big brown eyes as if butter wouldn't melt.

it may well be that alfie was disconcerted by having his back to the boy and also, if the pedal did catch him, it might well have startled him enough to behave in this out of character way. only i still remember the day that our gentle old family dog (brought up with children all his life) suddenly lunged at one of next door's small children who, it turned out, had gone to say hello carrying a small pair of blunt scissors he was using to "help" his father cut the lawn. it turned out that as he put his arm around ruggs he'd accidentally jabbed them into the dog's side and ruggs wasn't best pleased with what he saw as an unexpected attack on him.

I think without seeing it, but going on what you've said, Alfie was surprised but also unfortunately associated this child with the teasing.

I was discussing this issue recently with someone else on another forum; her dog had been teased a lot and started barking and lunging at children, it also
got into next door's garden and ended up nipping the children who had been teasing him.

I hope that the teasing has stopped, this poor nice child got  a fright due to I would imagine, the other children teasing Alfie. What an awful thing to happen, it must have been really upsetting, and not your fault. What I would do is talk to the boy next time you see him and explain what you think happened (but I'd not take a chance and let him touch Alfie).

Also make sure that children get NO chance to tease your dog - ensure this cannot happen whilst you are out, and also that if you are not at home all the time, kids don't come past the house teasing ormakinig a noise as school ends. Don't let Alfie get into any situations where children annoy him or he feels threatened by them.

Do you know anyone with children? If so actively ensure your dog starts to associate them with pleasant things, iti's called classical conditioning, if you are ever near children, give him tasty treats and toys and games and stop it  when the children go. When you are sure, over time, (months rather than days or weeks) allow sensible children you know to drop him titbits. They must only approach him sideways and speak to him and move calmy and not try to pat him. Eventually children may pat him (if you want this, I personally am alwasy a bit wary in case the children are not dog friendly, so i only allow those i trust to stroke my dog) and ensure they do it on his chest, not on his head as most dogs dislike] this anyway.

Are you sure he is OK with bikes and not worried by them?

Just a fw thoughts but if you are at all unsure, do get in a reputable experienced behaviourist to help you :)

Hi Lindsay

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Firstly, yes i am sure he is ok with bikes, i often take him for walks with my own children on their bikes and we spent a lot of time socialising him to all things that moved as a previous shepherd of ours had been a real car/bike/jogger chaser.

As for the kids teasing him, i had no idea it was going on until my neighbour told me about it and then one day by chance i was off sick and heard some kids out the back saying' lets go wind up that alsation' so i looked out to see what was happening and they were poking sticks through my gate at Alfie. I am hoping that this has stopped now as i have gone to great lengths , replacing old gate, putting up blinds at back window etc and also spoken to their parents about it.

I was dreading taking Alfie for a walk this afternoon so made sure i was really calm before we set off and avoided school time feeling much more positive.

i think it was just the shock of it all and the fact that it was so out of character for him to act like this but i will make sure i enlist the help of some dog friendly kids to over come this.

It's not out of character for any dog to react to potential attackers.  The teasing by children must have been going on for quite a while and unfortunately unless it's stops Alfie will always be wary and potentially aggressive.  Is Alfie outside by himself when no one is at home?  If kids are bent on teasing your dog they will find a way if they know that they are not going to be caught, unfortunately.

When you put Alfie in the sit, facing you and not the approaching child, unfortunately what you did was set him up for acting as he did.   He is much more likely to act in a defensive mode if you cut off one of his senses - sight of the approaching child - then if he is fully aware of his surroundings.  I suspect it was also a signal to him that you were stressed and that may have fed into his reaction. 

I am really sorry about this situation, it's a tough one to undo when you're dealing with other people's children.

Hi Cairnmania

Yes, the more i thought about it, i agree that i should have had him facing the child so that he could see what was going on. As for the teasing, it has been going on for about 3 weeks as that is when the kids moved in, their garden backs onto ours.

Neither of my dogs are ever allowed outside when i am not home, they are confined to the house. After speaking to the kids involved (and their parents) it seems that what they were doing was calling both my dogs to the fence and then when they got there they were poking sticks through or throwing stones at the fence, screaming and running away, they got away with this for so long without me realising because our garden is quite large with lots of trees at the bottom, this is Alfie's favourite place to lie as it is so shady. It seems that they also got friends to do this whilst in their garden. Unfortunately my chat with the parents has fallen on deaf ears as they have not stopped so i have now fenced off an area so that they cannot see Alfie and he can't see them or get close to them. I am so angry as the parents were not in the least concerned, they seemed to think it was perfectly acceptable

To make matters worse, on our walk this morning we saw the kids in question waiting at the bus stop, we were on the other side of the road but when Alfie saw them he raised his hackles, growled and lunged. It seems i am going to have a lot of work ahead at me to undo the damage and i am so upset for him.

Our other dog has not been bothered by this at all but Alfie has always been a really sensitive boy and i just hope i can help him through this.

Unfortunately my chat with the parents has fallen on deaf ears as they have not stopped so i have now fenced off an area so that they cannot see Alfie and he can't see them or get close to them. I am so angry as the parents were not in the least concerned, they seemed to think it was perfectly acceptable

To make matters worse, on our walk this morning we saw the kids in question waiting at the bus stop, we were on the other side of the road but when Alfie saw them he raised his hackles, growled and lunged. It seems i am going to have a lot of work ahead at me to undo the damage and i am so upset for him.

There's not much to say to that, I feel very upset on your behalf;  what annoys me is if Alfie ever hurt them, their parents would be the first to complain :rolleyes:

If you use classical conditioning you may still be able to help him (Alfie that is) but be aware, he may still hate "those" kids for ever even if he does get to like others.

Do keep us updated and feel free to come on here for support any time :)

It may help you feel more confident too if you invest in a good behaviourist for support in your training (try www.apbc.org.uk)

Lindsay
x

We have kids like that round here, the parents let them do as they please as long as they aren't bothering them. The latest is the ones nextdoor have bought a trampoline and every kid in the neighbourhood is jumping up and down on it all weekend and well after I have gone to bed each weekday night,the dogs start barking because they can see kids heads appearing above the height of the garage,any privacy from new fences I put up a couple of years ago has gone. I am also finding bones etc in the garden and having to remove them from my pups mouth before she chokes. Stones were being fired by catapault at my dogs last summer and the police came round and confiscated them and gave the parent who had bought them, not just for his own but 4 more kids, a good telling off.

I hope you get your dog to settle down soon.

I hope things go well, it's such a shame that he got teased and not his fault or yours.

Do be careful, (goes without saying!!) and take it slowly, I know you know this but don't put dog or kids at risk and if you are at all concerned,
get him used to a comfy muzzle (not a bad idea anyway as some vets can be scared of GSDs ...!) ;)

Lindsay
x

Hi,
By teasing him what do you mean? If there was any contact with your dog? or things thrown at him,
I would have it loged at the Local police station, also telling them that you have tried to have a word with there parents.
It must have been a lot of teasing constantly if this is the reaction the dog has given and it is out of charactor.
I would have had a solicitors letter go to the familys conserned if it was that bad.
As if he ever bits or you was not there, the poor dog would have to take the consequences.
But!! also the weather is very hot and muggy, for us, I hate to think how ratty we would fell with a fur coat on.

Hi Denese

From what i can gather it was lots of noise and calling him to the fence and then when he got there they were screaming really loudly and running away. We have a 6ft fence so they couldn't actually touch him but apparently they poked a stick through one of the slats and although they say they never touched him with it i am not sure. It seems that after talking to the parents, the kids stopped doing this after Alfie jumped up at the fence and managed to get his paws over the top and the kids thought he was going to get at them ! The parents seemed more annoyed at this than what their own kids were up to:rolleyes:.

I did think about reporting it to the police but wasn't sure how seriously they would take it.

Alfie came in the car with me whilst i dropped my own kids off this morning and he was watching some local kids (in the distance) so i kept praising him as he watched them and giving him liver cake (his favourite) for not responding to them. I know we have got a long way to go and i am giving some serious thought to Lindsays suggestion of getting him a comfy muzzle.

It just makes my blood boil when i think how this has affected him.

When i told the parents how upset he was, they laughed and said 'what that bloody big brute, he's hardly a chihauha (sp) is he??!! as if teasing him is ok because he is a big dog and can take it

Hi,
I think! I would still be inclined to log it with the police, the local comunity police officer could probly have a word with them, it would make all the diffrence, it is called covering your back.
GSD have already got a bad name, so it would be ease to point a finger.
Think about it, you can say you are concerned how far the children will go, and you would like it loged that you have also tryed to have a word with the parents.