I went to the Cheshire show yesterday and although my puppy was giving me a really hard time in the ring, the judge was lovely.   I would probably say one of the kindest and most sympathetic judges I have come across and it makes such a nice change.  

sarah

ooh who was it.  I have met quite a few top names that are lovely to show puppies under, being very patient yet still efficient.

It was Patricia Wells (Kortebin) - I believe she has Bassetts.

Ahh what a shame I didn't get to see you.  I was there both days, boy it was funny weather yesterday bright sunshine in-between the 2 second downpours.  Really enjoyed my two days although tired out today!

Its lovely when you have a judge like that.  At our club show we were judged by Di Arrowsmith and she was fantastic, very gentle and kind - so much so my puppy thought he would lick her face and act the goat but non the less he had a great experience - wish there were more judges like her

Yes, definitely and I wonder if female judges are more gentle than men.   The judge at Rasha'a first champ show this year (mentioning no names, this time) was a very rough male judge.  He was very very firm with every dog on the table and a lot of puppies were shying away from him.

Don't be too sure that women are more gentle than men! :( I had one of my bitches at a judges' assessment day and one female judge, who was a bit unstable on her legs, lost her balance and only stopped herself falling by grabbing my girl's lead and pulling herself up! If that had happened to a puppy I have no doubt it would never have gone in the ring again.

your poor bitch.  And as you say, just as well it wasn't a puppy.

Gosh, your poor dog!

Our experience is that both male and female judges can be good or poor.

We show 2 Newfoundlands, one black and one Landseer and I must say that Mr Piggott who recently judged them at 3 Counties and Mr Burrows who judged them at Border Union where excellent.

They came across as really caring about the breed, having the best interests of the dogs at heart and that is especially so for Mr Piggott who made both my boys feel at home, handled them gently and even had time to give them a bit of a cheeky tickle as he asked me to re-join the line up.

We are fairly inexperienced at showing, but the vast majority have been excellent.

The only poor ones we have come across have been the ones that have been far too old to judge.

It is unfortunate, but age does come to us all, and in the judging world it is generally the very old and inferm who are asked to judge due to tradition or long serrvice to the cause and time and time again I have found them rude, rough with the dogs and wholly inconsistent with there decisions.

I do believe that like most professions judges should have a retirement age for Championship judging say 60 and for Open shows slightly longer say 65.

That would also ensure new blood is brought through the qualifications for judging and the showing world remains vibrant and appealing to new people.

regards

Julie  

Trouble with that is that it often takes that long to get to become judges.

Trouble with that is that it often takes that long to get to become judges

And quite rightly so IMO Barbara.  One thing that really bugs me is the "instant judges" that seem to be so prevalent in the showing world now.  Win a couple of classes and maybe a BOB at open level and people think they have all the knowledge to stand in the middle of the ring and sort out the merits of other people's dogs. 

Even the JDP seminars they have now are full of loopholes.  I know several people who do the hound group ones who put the dogs in the order that they've been told to by the owners purely to get a credit - then get in the ring and do something completely different because a) they had to it differently in the exam because so-and-so was assessing them and b) because they have no clue about the breed they've just got a distinction in!

IMO judges should serve their apprenticeship for a good few years.  After all - who wants the opinion of someone who's not proved themselves by producing quality dogs for many years?

Debs

Agree entirely.

It is sad when someone has worked their way up to judge a breed the hard way like a friend of mine and they are in their late 70's by the time they give CC's so don't get asked because of their age.

Or breed specialists who have no interest in judging anything but their own breeds sitting on a list for years and years not getting appointments when people who have much less knowledge of the breed get to do us too frequently just because they can be used to do other breeds at the show.

Don't get me wrong I believe in a  balance of specialist and all rounder, but I don't want the same specialist coming around every 18 months to two years when we have under utilised specialists.

In our breed with small number of new exhibits coming along and a long show life (you will be showing the same dog until at least early veteran), you don't want the same judges opinion more than say twice when it was a pup/junior and then when mature.

Breed specialists have to run around the country doing small entries to get the numbers, then they may get a non CC ch show or breed club open, and they finally get to do CC's.  Then what happens, some may only get an appointment every five years.

A Friend of mine not getting any younger with over 50 years in the breed hasn't judged since 2001 (as of course CC judges are discouraged from taking on Open show appointments in their breed), and she is not alone.

I think it would be a good idea that all CC judges had the year of their last CC appointment listed against their name on breed club and KC lists, so that it was obviousa who hadn't judged for a while.

That is the very trouble with the dog showing world in the UK today.

There are far too many people with old fashioned views who will not move with the times and as such alienate the younger generation.

A woman can sail round the world in her 20's and she is a hero.

A mechanic and identify a fault at the roadside and get you going again in minutes with one of the most technical devices we use today and we take it for granted (Car!!)

Your computer crashes and a youngster turns up and sorts it out

If you are unfortunately enough to visit your bank manager, solicitor or doctor you note he or she is more than likely in there thirties or forties.

You take your dog to the vet and are encouraged by the very experienced Lady or Gentleman under 60 who will do all they can to give your pet a future.

These are just some very basic examples of the many people who have vast experience in their chosen field and really do make a difference to the World that we live in today.

Unfortunately many still in the UK breed, show and kennel societies believe that you must have 50 years experience before you can even have the nerve to judge at a Championship Show.

Until this narrow minded vision changes, the dog world will not reach its potential and dog ownership will continue to decline.

regards

Julie

Thing is in most of the examples you have sited the people will have started their training straight from Uni or after 'A' levels.

The vast majority of people who aren't born into a doggy family come to the hobby close to retirement or when their kids are older, often not until their thirties or forties, so then it will take them say 10 years just to get the hang of their breeding/showing and another as many to become proficient enough to judge at championship level, especially if they are not a pushy person.

I am in my forties, and if it was not for my disability would only consider myself competent enough to start on a judging career now.  As it is I won't be going down that road.

Conversely there have been young people that have grown up in dogs that are judging now.  Will be showing under just such a young lady next week, I believe she is 24 and hopefully will not be long before she is able to give CC's.

Both her mother and Grandmother are deeply involved with dogs, and until she left home so was she in Junior handling and the breed ring handling.  Of course she has had to give up having dogs of her own being a young professional person pursuing a career.  So even such as she and some of the young people on this board will have to put off their careers in dogs, be it exhibiting, breeding or judging.

There are far too many people with old fashioned views who will not move with the times and as such alienate the younger generation

It's not a case of moving with the times.  It's a case of realising that judging dogs is not an exact science.  Even with our breed standards everuthing is open to interpretation.  There is no substitute for experience in the dog showing world.  The views one might hold strongly when we're young may change as we get older and this is something we all have to accept. 

There's a lot being done to educate younger judges - seminars - exams - breed specific training days - but I still mainatain that there is nothing more valid than living with quality dogs day in day out.  Until one has the experience in breeding and showing you cannot be a decent judge. 

If you start judging now for the first time then in 10 or 20 years time you might be giving tickets.  That's not a very long time span when you think that you, as a judge awarding CCs, will have a hand in shaping the future of a breed.

Debs

It might be relevant to point out that your not in  your dotage either debs.

It might be relevant to point out that your not in  your dotage either debs

LOL! True, I am in my 40s - I still consider that to be young. :d  It took me 8 years from judging my first breed classes til I gave CCs for the first time in '99.  That is a very short space of time - however I had been showing successfully (Champions, group winners, etc) since '79 and had fulfilled all the criteria which the KC and Breed Club demanded at the time with regards to numbers judged and stud book entries, etc.

There are some fairly young judges who have gone on the fast track and quite rightly so - they've spent their entire life in dogs and have amassed years of experience by a reasonably young age.  I think our youngest all rounder (to judge BIS at an all breeds Ch show) is in his 40s (I hope he'll forgive me if I got his age wrong LOL) but behind him is a lifetime of living with the highest quality dogs.  He has experience.

Debs

Exactly   and that is the point most people come into dogs later when their lives are settled, they have a home and family etc, so therefore aren't going to be judging until later if they didn't start in dogs until their thirties and forties.

It is the experience not the age.

>There are far too many people with old fashioned views who will not move with the times

What, like the ones who are trying desperately to keep their loved breeds close to the original breed standard, and not press to change the standard to fit today's (sometimes) carelessly-bred dogs?

These are just some very basic examples of the many people who have vast experience in their chosen field and really do make a difference to the World that we live in today.

I would argue the point that experience comes with time.  Sometimes they lack experience but have the qualifications to get a job.  Doesn't mean they're any good at it.....

Of course there are some very good judges who are young, but on the whole I still think that experience comes with time involved in your chosen field and not exams or qualifications.

Debs

>vast experience in their chosen field

As the saying goes, 'An ounce of experience is worth a pound of book-learning'. And experience only comes with time. The roadside mechanic, for example, (who often simply tows your car to the nearest garage) has very little experience ...