A friend has an 8 month old Golden Retriever who has been diagnosed with a cartlidge problem and the vet says he needs key hole surgery.
Has anyone had any experience of this?

1) How successful is the surgery?
2) is it something a normal vet could do or is it best to go to an orthopeadic vet?
3) how long would the dog take to recover after the surgery?

(Bearing in mind he is very bouncy boy)

Is this a problem that could right itself in time with complete rest?

Maria

It depends entirely on what key hole surgery is planned.  It can vary from just a diagnostic look, to flushing through with fluids to remove any debris from cartilage damage to actual repair of the damage.  Why don't they ask their vet?

I would imagine they have already asked the vet Isabel and are now just after opinions from people who have had similar surgery for their dogs - isn't that what message boards are all about?  I agree that maybe more specific info as to scope of surgery is required.

I don't know about dogs but I was told by my orthopaedic surgeons that they don't like to mess about too much with knees unless it's really necessary.

Have they seen a specialist as they will be able to give you more indepth details?

I don't know about dogs but I was told by my orthopaedic surgeons that they don't like to mess about too much with knees unless it's really necessary.

My sentiments too - I've suggested they see a specialist as it is just their vet they have seen - I did stress they needed a second opinion before operating!

Don't you think a vet would be able to answer these specific questions entirely satisfactorily?  It would appear from many posts we read here that, inexplicable, people frequently don't ask their vets questions for a variety of reasons, possibly sometimes the vet is responsible for the lack of communication :) but reading between the lines not always.  In fact without knowing the dogs history, general health, understanding of the severity of the condition etc I really can't see how any poster on here can possibly answer anything but question 2.  My answer to that would be yes, many vets have a great deal of experience in simple procedures of this type but again that particular vet would have to be asked regarding the extent of his particular experience.

Don't you think a vet would be able to answer these specific questions entirely satisfactorily?

I'm sure he/she could Isabel but that doesn't stop anyone asking for other people's experiences does it?  If it did, this board would be pretty empty.

>Don't you think a vet would be able to answer these specific questions entirely satisfactorily?

Depends on the vet Isabel, different vets give different answers....

Maria, my work colleague had a young lab with a cartilage problem but they treated it with drugs and diet.  The cartilage was soft and sluchy and was'nt forming properly.  She couldn't be more specific, I'm afraid.  According to their vet, surgery isn't always successful and he prefers not to go down that route.  The dog is 3 and a half year old now and is still going strong.  In fact, recent check-ups show the joints have improved greatly.  Her OH deals with the vet so she wasn't able to give me the full details of drugs used etc.  Don't know if this helps any, it might be worth suggesting to your friend if she is unsure to get a second opinion maybe?   

I agree with both Spender and Annie - my friends have obviously seen the vet, but not all vets are capable of orthopeadic surgery, which I found out to Spangler's detriment when he had his luxating patella operated on - but I won't go into that it's taking it off the subject.

Thanks for the info about your friends lab Spender, I'll pass the info on - in fact it is just as I thought, that surgery isn't always successful!

And YES I do want other peoples opinions as Annie quite rightly pointed out that's what the message board is all about!

Maria 

Experiences of what?  We don't even know the condition, let alone the severity or the dog's previous history.  Perhaps when Maria gives us a little more detail others can have a reasonable stab at it although obviously they will never be able to do so as assuredly as a vet that has actually examined the dog and has full access to it's history.
You are right anybody is entitled to give an opinion and others are equally entitled to ask the rationale behind it.  Mine is, ask the vet and I believe I have offered a reasonable rationale for doing so.:)

Experiences of what?

Maybe if you can't understand Isabel you shouldn't try to answer - just a thought!

However  I do value your opinion about asking the vet, which they have already done!

Experiences of what condition?  We don't know what the dog is suffering from.  Arthroscopies are given for a range of conditions sometimes just as a diagnostic tool to determine the condition.  I haven't tried to answer the questions, that is my point :)

I haven't tried to answer the questions, that is my point 

Glad to see that you sometimes take advice from others then!

Sorry, who else was advising we shouldn't try to answer these?  I though I had come to that conclusion myself.........................and unilaterally so far :)
That's not to say there are not several people here I would be happy to take advise from :)

I WOULDNT LET MY VET DOIT  IF THEY NOT SPECLIST IN THAT FEILD, I WOULD WANTA REFERRED TO A SPECLIST VET THAT KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING

From one Teri to another (well, nearly ;) ) that would be my view too regardless of whether being done as a diagnostic procedure or repair.

regards, Teri

I think if you live within easy distance of a veterinary hospital you may find the local vets far less experienced that in areas where general vets are doing much of this work but I certainly don't think it unreasonable to ask a vet what his experience amounts to.

True but then a GP wouldn't do this procedure on a human patient, a specialist would - as in specialist in that area of surgery - (OH has had it done for repair) so I don't see why a specialist is not better sought in the case of our animals for intricate procedures.

I have a preference for a specialist route for anything other than routine, run of the mill diagnosis / treatments etc  - it may not be of the same import to everyone else or even possible on practical grounds for every one of course :)

regards, Teri

A GP wouldn't perform a Total Abdominal Hysterectomy either but vets do, unlike GPs vets all qualify as veterinary surgeons in the UK.  As I say if you live close to a specialist centre it makes sense to use it but in other areas of the country it is not unreasonable to find vets doing these ops regularly enough to be regarding as proficient. 

Each to their own Isabel - as I've said it is my preference, but I'm fully understanding of others' views. 

I am fortunate to live close to a nationally acclaimed facility but have travelled to other specialist centres in the UK which are better recognised in other specialist areas and procedures.  Obviously there are some GP clinics where a number of procedures away from the norm may well be dealt with in sufficient number to warrant full confidence but IMO specialist surgical areas are for just that, specialists :)

regards, Teri

>I have a preference for a specialist route for anything other than routine, run of the mill diagnosis / treatments etc 

Me too Teri :-)

Arthroscopies are very common in humans but don't really know if they are out of the norm for dogs.  I suppose that is another question to ask the vet together with the number of similar cases they operate on annually :)

I would definitely want to see a specialist for this before making any decisions, especially for such a young dog.

Sorry,

apology accepted

My 8 month lab has just had an operation on her elbow to remove some of her cartlidge (OCD) and remove cartlidge fragments that had calcified to bone and were in the elbow joint.  Im not sure if it was keyhole or not but her wound was about 4cms long with six stiches?  I beleive the operation was successful and I think my Vet is classed as a Specialist anyway as he is one of the partners in a large animal hospital in our area (Chine House) As for recovery .... well she stayed at the Vets and came home the mext morning bandaged from top to toe but even then with hardly a limp!!! five days later the bandage was off and five more days the stiches were removed.  All along we had to keep her quiet as possible and just short walks on the lead.  Now 2 weeks later we are walking for half an hour twice a day and swimming too.  All going well up to now and I was so glad we went ahead with the operation. At 8 months it was recommended as the dog is still growing and the cartlidge will heal better.  Leave it too long and it may be too late. Also I have glucosimine from the Vets (large dog ones) which are expensive but good (Thank goodness for Insurance)
Hope all goes well if your friend goes ahead

Hi Maria

These are my experiences - I hope they will help your friend.

I have a golden retriever who was diagnosed with FCP/OCD at about 6 months.  I was referred to an orthopaedic specialist who recommended an arthroscopy, which is a keyhole procedure.  During this procedure they can see the damage, remove any loose fragments of bone and cut away any bone that they think may be a problem in the future.  I was told that following the procedure he would need a minimum of 6 weeks and a maximum of 12 weeks cage rest.  During this he would be able to start initially with just going outside on the lead to the loo, then in the first couple of weeks ten minutes on lead 4-6 times daily, increasing to 15 minutes 4-6 times daily at 5 weeks post-op.  Apart from this it would be strict cage rest.

I was very anti having this done, especially as my vet said he had seen some cases where they had gone through all this and still been bad, and in one particular case a young dog had gone through all the cage rest and been put to sleep at the end of it.  The specialist though said there were very few failures when the owners followed the cage rest routine.  I was convinced by the specialist to have the arthroscopy done and in fact there were no fragments to remove so he only needed two weeks cage rest.  I have to say I was incredibly concerned about the cage rest, but he coped really well, especially as he had my other 3 bouncing around.  Stuffed kongs are very good!

I know of the older school of breeder who think that rest itself is a cure - it has to be complete rest, including no racing around the garden with other dogs.

From my experience, Campbell has improved with very, very limited lead exercise - I walked him for about 5 minutes on lead a day for months, hydrotherapy, cartrophen injections which can help the cartilage, and glucosamine and chondroitin supplements, with Rimadyl when necessary.  He is now 14 months old and has arthritis in both elbows but can now do a decent on-lead walk and I let him off once a week for a little while.  I have every sympathy with your friend as I found the whole thing really traumatic; my vet told me that if it was his dog and the arthroscopy showed a lot of damage he would have him put to sleep. 

Best wishes

As far as complicated ops go, and advice as to if they are needed at all, I would certainly want my dog refered to someone who specialises in that field. There the dog can be assessed as to how the condition affects it in paticular, and taking in its full medical history, enviroment, general health etc a plan of action can be made for that specific dog. This by a specialist that has studied this paticular condition in depth, has gained the experience fom other dogs he will have treated and also from what he has learned from other specialists in that field whilst training. He may be able to suggest other measures of treatment to try before resorting to an operation. A general surgeon will not have had that specific training.

Whilst I would be happy for a vet to operate on general things, and obviously something that needs a lifesaving operation NOW, with something specific that is complicated I would want a second opinion, and have time to discuss all the options and success rates, and everything else regarding the operation, before I made my decision. And I would want someone experienced in this paticular proceedure to perform it. With things like this, this is why vets specialise.

Its good to get others imput too, those have have had this type of op, or one similar to it, to see how they coped with after care, any complications they had which can be used to ask questions of the specialist, and to see how the dog progressed long term. Someone once asked here about their bitch, which had puro, if she really needed a spay. That person was worried sick the dog would die under the op and really needed reassurance from those that had knowledge of this condition as to their experience. They were directed to pyro sites, to read about the condition, and given advice from those that had had bitches with this condition, and how they dealt with it. That made the poster feel more confident that they were doing the right thing for their dog. With the wealth of experience on here, this is just what this sort of board is for, reassurance, advice based on experience, personal opinions, but never to replace vetinary knowledge, which Iv never seen anyone do.

>never to replace vetinary knowledge, which Iv never seen anyone do.

I've definitely seen it, but it certainly seems to be confined to the Feeding forum.

We all have our own thoughts on feeding, vets and us alike. If a certain food does not suit a dog, as the owner we are the best judge of that. I had a colitus sufferer who could only eat bolied rice and chicken when poorly, when I tried him on prescription diets  they didnt work. I tried other foods, but he only did well on Eukanuba regular (this was a few years ago) so thats what he had, and I wouldnt have let him eat anything else, no matter what any vet said. When Eukanuba started to put wheat in the food, which I didnt know of, back it came. A friend who was selling Oscars told me to check the bag, which is how i found out. I put him onto Arden grange classic adult, and once again a good tummy. I would have physically fought anyone who tried to change it. Vets tend to have a certain companies prescrition food, and if that works for the dog, fine, but if no improvement then I would feed something else. Once again, these forums are good in that others may have had a similar condition and can give their advice, regardless of if that conflicts with the vet. I would imagine a vastly experienced breeder would do the same if a vet prescribed to a puppy owner a food which the breeder knows wont suit, and that breeder will advise what they use, and if they feel necessary, not to feed the prescription diet at all! Nor to keep chopping and changing.

The only thing that worries me with nameless, faceless internet forums, is that anyone could advise anything without knowing what they are talking about. In here, the posters that are regulars and experienced, together with the moderators and admin, would soon sort out a poster like that. This is the only concern I would have with advice sharing.

My comment regarding not to take the vets advice was aimed at health really, a bit blinkerd :D so I take your point re that ;)

Thinking on, another topic vets and dog owners really disagree on is docking. Another topic, but sjows that dog owners/breeders can and do dispute the vets advice. Not that I know enough about either to voice any opinion, just stating a point. :D

I`d get a second opinion from otho specialist :)

Thanks for all your replies, it does help to know someone has experienced the same thing or similar.  My friends are going to an orthopeadic specialist - and I'll update with his progress.
Thanks again I do appreciate your posts.
Maria  

Best of Luck to your friend and her pup, Maria, I hope everything goes well. :-)

Good luck to them Maria.........I look forward to the updates! :)

Calmstorm please see my thread "vets again."

Hi Lillith, no need to hide hun, if that was meant for me :D No, not feeling its personal, you can say what you like (well, almost.......:D) and I'll try to answer as best I can. Just serve slowly, coz my tennis is a bit past its sell by date ;)

I cant access the post you left for me. Im hoping that, by clarifying the points you raised I can answer without getting the post locked. I certainly, along with others, want to see how the dog the OP posted about gets on. :)

here goes........My comment of 'no matter what any vet said', taken out of context of the post sounds very conceited. and as if my vet didnt support me. clearing that point now. my vet (now retired) was the most fantastic person to walk on this earth, I love him to bits, he's been like a Dad to me, watched me grow up from a fiesty 22 yr old, to marriage kids etc. and talks to my kids as if they are his grandkids! Contrary to my posts, with him I would trust my animals and have him do absolutly any surgery, examination, whatever. I would only have considered a specialist if he said so, then I wouldnt be happy, coz he wouldnt be doing it. He could diagnose anything from a chat with you, the dogs state and any symptoms showing. he'd do the tests, but the treatment was already under way, by the time the resuts came back the dog was well or on the way there. he just 'knew'. People came from miles and miles away to see him. totally dedicated man. Heart of gold. Old school. He fully supported my feeding, being of the opinion that if it works, why change? However, had a vet tried to stop me feeding that food, I would have told them where to go.

However, having been with animals all my life, I know from much experience that some vets are quite useless. As in all professions, there are those that can do on paper, and in a controlled manner, but cannot do when left alone. Thats life, and a human failing. I could quote many occasions where things have been vastly wrong, but it would fill to much space. I can also say that I have been exceptionally lucky to work at places where vets have been fantastic, and open to teaching if you are willing to learn, and hungry for that knowledge as I was. So, Im most certainly not anti vet :D

When I said vets tend to sell a certain prescription food, I wasnt actually refering to any paticular brand. The word certain was used rather than name half a dozen brands, and didnt specifically refer to one brand.

Breeders always seem to know what they are talking about, and if they have used a brand of food that they KNOW upsets their dogs, then I hardly think they would recommend a puppy be fed on it. breeders seem to be damn knowledgable of bringing up their breed, and once a vet has eliminated all medical reasons for a dog being poorly, then why pay a fortune for an expensive canned dog food, that contains goodness knows what, when chicken and rice are just as good, if not better, cheaper too probably! :P I'm not saying a vet would give something if they knew it would cause a problem, but many will ignore the fact that this brand of food upsets that certain breed. Or maybe even an ingrediant in that tin disagrees with it. What amazes me is why some vets are against natural feeding......Why? I wouldnt expect vets to keep supplies of frozen or dry food, thats for the dog food suppliers. In fact, i dont know why vets sell dog food at all. Its like an endorsment for that brand.

I have had vets try to tell me, in the past, not necessarily with dogs but including them, that certain foods are not good, should change to this one because its better..........that sort of thing. Despite the fact that it was working for a paticular condition.

I think thats all.............:D :D..........Please let this run admin, Im not offended, dont think anyone else is, if Lilleth wants to discuss my points made in public Im fine about it, as Im sure she is :D

Whoops, just read some of the other posts in answer to the question posed to me. Lets not carry this on in public then, I have answered the question, feel free to PM if you want to personally know more. TC :)

Thank you Calmstorm, with the background filled in, the comments don't seem quite so pointed.  I was quite upset by the replies from others yesterday, but your patient explanations have really cheered me up and given me back my faith in the forum!  :-)

Do you know that veterinary surgeons don't receive specific training in arthroscopies?  I don't either but I expect the patients vet will be able to confirm if they have or they haven't. I wonder what operations veterinary surgeons do have the requisite qualifications for?  I would have classed arthroscopy as general in humans, they certainly do them in the day care unit of our local general hospital and it seems to me the average vet may well do considerable orthopaedic work both planned and trauma.  If people prefer to take their dog of to an orthopaedic specialist that is fine but I don't think we should say the general vet has not been trained to do it or has no experience unless we actually know that to be true.

Whether he has or not, it is still likely that a specialist will have more training/experience since he/she has chosen to specialise in that field.

No doubt and that might well be why people choose that route :)  I am just questioning whether we know that this is a complicated operation, expecially when we don't even know anymore than an arthroscopy will be performed or whether a general vets receive training to conduct such surgery given that they are veterinary surgeons not physicians :)

Its not simply the surgery that is the point here. It is the treatment for whatever ails, the advice that can be given by someone specialised in that field. if and what treatment is required. A specialist will be totally up to date in all knowledge and aspects of this paticular field, whereas a general vet will have a great number of issues to keep up with, never mind the heavy load of day to day work, night time call outs etc, and if its his business, the actual running of it.

Just because someone has a piece of paper to say they are qualified, no matter how much hard work has gone into it, this does not mean they are specialised in every aspect, thats impossible, and with any type of tricky surgery I would want a person who specialises in that. Who is already an experienced vet, but has branched out in a certain respect. I wouldnt want a bone surgeon doing a my heart by pass if I needed one. If a human suffers with a blood disorder, an orthopaedic doctor will not treat them for it. A doctor specialising in blood does. he dosent mend broken bones.....but all are qualified before specialising.:D

The equipment a vet hospital have will correspond with their specialist needs, and be up to date, a vet practise cant possibly be expected to carry all the specialist equipment a large hospital can. My comments are general, not confined to the OP. However, in this case, there is obviously a problem which could be serious, and the dog owner needs not just the explority exam but advice on the future treatment and possible furthur operations for the dog, and advice for long term. Should it be the case that the explority exam could cause a problem if a mistake is made, then I would certainly want someone experienced doing it. And its far better, imo, to have continuity of care and treatment, and a specialist review of an explority exam. So, for all the reasons i have said, I would ask for a referal, and take it from there.

keep smiling....its so lovely and sunny :)

I'm all for specialists in areas where it is appropriate what I am querying is how much knowedge do people have to suggest an athroscopy is not amongst the operations that the veterinary surgeon has been trained to perform or indeed corrective treatment of cartilage.
Vets have the highest entrance requirement of any course you can name before training for many years in medicine and surgery.  Whilst they obviously cannot claim to be expert at it all I think we can expect them, like any other professional educated to that level, to appreciate the requirements and their own limitations.  We do not question the ability of other professionals to use their knowledge, training and judgement as to when it is appropriate to seek opinion so I can't understand why we do with this with vets.

Do all vets know their limitations though. :) They may well train for many years before qualifying, but it is also a fact that vets make mistakes, no matter how well qualified. Human nature, no one is perfect. ;) If I were to go off topic, I could quote examples. If a proceedure is going to cause damage if poorly done, then I prefer a specialist. If the proceedure of exploration is to be diagnosed I would want it to be by the specialist that will perform the operation, or any furthur treatment that he/she would be thought necessary. Continuity of treatment. I am not doubting the ability of the OPs friends vet, but I would think no vet would mind a second opinion from a person specialised in their field, nor mind that this paticular treatment be carried out there. At the end of the day, we are paying the bill, and if we want a specialist, so be it.

Whilst you may not be able to understand why a dog owner would prefer a specialist, many others obviously do, myself included, and offer their advice as guidance, not actually expecting the person to take that advice just because they said it, but simply as a 'this is what I would do', or 'this is what I did.' There are also a lot of people who do question the abilities of profesionals to do a proceedure correctly. I could quote examples, but would be going off topic to do so. Again :D

I have not said I cannot understand why people want specialists.  If fact I can well understand it when they read the internet ;)

  What's the internet got to do with specialists? 

Nothing :) But it has gone a lot way towards people mistrusting professionals to make appropriate chooses on their behalf.  Whether you regard that as a good thing or bad............

Sorry, I don't quite get this.  How has the internet gone a long way towards people mistrusting professionals to make choices; specialists are professionals, are they not?

Yes, so are veterinary surgeons.  In the past they were the professionals trusted to make the appropriate decision as to whether a case warranted referral. 

Not assisting the OP so locked.