Hi Everyone
I know there has been topics about titre testing before, but I wondered if anyone could give me their opinion whether to titre test or use homeopathic nosodes?   We have an 8 week old Golden Retriever and obviously are reluctant to vaccinate after our 3 year old Golden retriever died after his booster in March.

If we opt for nosodes are we then supposed to titre test as well or not?

I know you can't advise me but your opinions would be appreciated!

Thanks
Maria

You can't titre test for nosodes, I don't think.

It's a shame the titre testing thread was locked, because I feel we all only began to explore the subject before it was closed down.

You might want to explore certain other options - some people do decide not to vaccinate at all.  In which case you have to accept that your dog will be at risk if it comes into contact with any diseases - although you will avoid the risk of vaccinosis. 

Others decide only to give puppy jabs and then no boosters.  This way you would minimise the risk of vaccinosis, and your dog would probably also have some protection from disease - in the US certain well respected vets believe that a dog, vaccinated as a pup and receiving the last jab after 12 wks old, would be protected for 7-9 yrs from the 3 major diseases, well beyond the length of time the drug has been tested for.  Therefore, to receive protection from disease for potentially this long, you may decide it's worth having just the puppy jabs (as long as the 2nd jab is given after 12-14 weeks, so it's not blocked by maternal antibodies).  Christine has useful links on this option.

Others decide puppy jabs and first year booster only. 

I haven't quite decided what to do, but I think I will stay away from either extreme of either not vaccinating at all, or boosting every year. 

I'd suggest you scroll down and read the links people have posted in the "titre testing" thread as they will help you to decide.

some people do decide not to vaccinate at all.  In which case you have to accept that your dog will be at risk if it comes into contact with any diseases - although you will avoid the risk of vaccinosis

Not if you accept unscientifcally proven homeopathy:rolleyes:, and your dog's immune system can cope with invasion and develop it's own immunity, which is what it does when the disease in introduced to the body by vaccination.

Val, I'd have to say that I agree with this link which Christine posted on the locked thread:  http://www.caberfeidh.com/VaxNone.htm

This writer, although clearly someone who doesn't vaccinate, points out herself that you should be prepared for your dogs to catch diseases if you don't vaccinate.  She states that, if you are prepared for that to happen, and to deal with the consequences, then you are ready to not vaccinate.  If you are not prepared, you're not ready.

Have to say that I agree with her.

I `ll tell you how *prepared* I was :)

The pups dam was the pup who`d had parvo & then bloat after her first vax, (she did have another vax for distemper & adno at 7mths? also got some skin reaction from that) but no other vax in her life, nor had she ever had worming products or flea products & raw fed from 9mths of age.

She had the Juliette de Bairacli supplements thu out whelp & I followed her natural feeding, care regime, for the pups I had in her pup supplement as well. I bought a comprehensive homeopathy kit & made sure it contained everything for whelping dam & pups. I already had quite a few books on rearing, homeopthay etc. I got the parvaid from Holland as couldn`t get if from US, what a prob that was to get! I bought my own c/silver machine, figured as I used to buy it from UK would be cheaper to have the machine & make it myself & then was a good enough time to invest in one! I was in contact with experienced breeders who don`t vax by pc & one by phone.

Not vaxing is not about just not *doing* anything. I had supported my girls body the best I could thu out her whelp. She had 10 pups in just over 2hrs by the way, the easiest & cleanest whelp I`ve ever seen. All pups were of an even size, no runt, 5 boys 5 girls :) We had a prob when they were about 3wks old, the girls were sucking the boys w**lies & made them sore, I treated them with h/pathy but got the vet just to make sure. She didn`t have a prob with what I was giving them :) I had them all fecal tested several times & all clear.

No pups got ill except 1 at age about 5mths. It was a w/end & our phone was broke  (sounded like it was ringing to them but in the house it wasn`t!!) but the owners called my vet & took him straight to his clinic. He was kept in for 2 nights & on a drip & treated as if for parvo & others but tests came back negative. They don`t know what he had but he was bouncing around & full of beans after 2 days. Vet told me he kept him in for the 2nd night just to be safe :) Thats the only illness any of them have had upto now & they are 2yrs old :) My adult dogs have not been ill since I`ve taken the natural rearing way either :)

I also follow classical h/pathy, which means I don`t give nosodes, I don`t treat prophylactically. I would only use if I know there was an outbreak of anything or at first symptoms of something :)

Of greatest importance to me is the dogs diet & the nourishment they need, followed closely by fresh air, exercise & keeping their minds as well as bodies active.

So you see Maria, theres a lot more to not vaxing & h/pathy :)

ps we also have goats, as well as OH always wanting them & to to try keep our field down I wanted fresh goat milk for the pups & with the 10 pups she had I`m so glad we had them as we sure needed it :D :D

Haven't read the link 123 (too early in the morning for me!) but couldn't you also say that anyone who vaccinates should be prepared for a possibly severe vaccine reaction otherwise they shouldn't vaccinate?

Yes, definitely - either way there is a risk.  Probably there are some dogs who might react to a jab, and some dogs who might catch a disease.  We have no way of knowing in advance, which our dogs are more at risk of.  So you just take a chance, I think.  But I do think that if you're going to not vaccinate, like Christine has outlined here, there's a hell of a lot to think about and plan for and learn about, to be prepared, homeopathically, to deal with disease.  And, if you are going to vaccinate, you should also be aware of the research in the US about how long vaccines work for and the risks over vaccinating more often than usual and the option of titre testing.  (Rather than just boosting every year, regardless.)

It not so much looking for risk that advances us, after all I think we all understand that there are risks with either option, but rather the probabilities of those risks so that the risk/benefit can be evaluated.  This of course is exactly what is done whenever a drug is licenced.
I don't think we have seen much evidence that titre testing is of great value in this, certainly if we must always look to American views on this ;) it is worth noting their veterinary association does not regard them as valuable.

>>>It not so much looking for risk that advances us, after all I think we all understand that there are risks with either option,but rather the probabilities of those risks so that the risk/benefit can be evaluated.  This of course is exactly what is done whenever a drug is licenced.<<<

One of the facts that is known, but maybe not public knowledge, is siblings of animals that have had an adverse reaction are then at known greater risk to having an adverse reaction. Risks do have to be evaluated & everyone should be aware of those riskd & what the alternative options are :)

>>I don't think we have seen much evidence that titre testing is of great value <<

Just you, thinking again Isabel. You can`t get much more evidence than that titres are used to evalute DOI in vaccines, it is the official test in the UK to determine rabies & every other country on the planet USA included! :)

Yes you are right Christine, they did do a titre test on Spangler after he had his rabies jabs to get his passport, so if it's acceptable by the customs in all the European countries for the rabies vaccine, it stands to reason that they give a true reading!

Yep they do it on all the dogs for pet passport M & if it isn`t at a certain level the dog has to be vaxed again & the process is started all over.

Its what vax manufacturers use when testing vax, they do a titre on the animal to see if vax has taken then regularly to see when antibodies wane, if animals still have antibodues etc etc. Titre testing is used to determine all those things.

I don`t know how Isabel thinks we`d know all those things without it.

>I don`t know how Isabel thinks we`d know all those things without it

By exposing to disease and observing for clinical signs.

>>By exposing to disease and observing for clinical signs.<<

No not good enough Isabel. That only proves they`ve caught a disease & vax is ineffective. Won`t prove DOI.

>they`ve caught a disease & vax is ineffective.

Surely that is the information they are seeking.

>>Surely that is the information they are seeking<<

No, thats not all the information they seeking to know, you wouldn`t have to be a scientist to know a dogs caught a disease would you & if caught after vaccination that the vax itself didn`t work :rolleyes:

How do they know duration of immunity from a vax, how do they know when maternal antibodies wane????????

>if caught after vaccination that the vax itself didn`t work

No but you would need to see that happen in a trial to have the evidence as oppose to hearsay for instance.  If it does happen the trials can also tell you the probability of it happening.

>How do they know duration of immunity from a vax

By running trials on a decent number of dogs, ie at least 1000, at varying periods after vaccination, pretty straightforward stuff really.

>how do they know when maternal antibodies wane????????

Don't know how you can reliably, but at least you can rule out whether it is an issue when vaccinating by trialing in the same way as above.

I can only say again it is understanding the probabilites that matters :)

That is titre testing to determine present immunity not as a predictor as to future immunity.  You are not permitted to titre test instead of boostering at the appopriate time for the Rabies requirement of the PPS.  I think I have already posted the American Veterinary Medical Association had to say on the subject of testing so hardly my thoughts :)

And I can only say again. The scientisits know how long antibodies circulate for, there is no predicting about it.
Its how they know & can say how long a vax gives duration of immunity for.

>>You are not permitted to titre test instead of boostering at the appopriate time for the Rabies<<<

Rabies lasts for 3yrs absolute minimum, they know this because of titre tests being done before the vax was licensed, its how it was proved!

As you see from my other posts there are other means of determining miniumum length of immunity.  Titre testing may have played a part but clearly the Americans do not regard it as sufficiently reliable as a complete research tool.

>Rabies lasts for 3yrs absolute minimum, they know this because of titre tests being done before the vax was licensed, its how it was proved!

Whatever the period that has been determined by research my comments about titre testing not being able to predict beyond that period remains pertinent as does my comment that you are not permitted to titre test rather than booster for rabies in the PPS.

Did I not see in one of your posts Isabel that you didn't follow the Americans as you are in the UK?
I maybe wrong and excuse me if I am!
Maria

I certainly don't follow the Americans :D  We have a perfectly capable British veterinary governing body to advise us.

Yet you seem happy to quote their research when it suits your purpose Isabel.

If you look at my first mention of them, together with the wink, you would appreciate why :)  Actually it is not their research but their policy I am quoting.  Not that I don't regard their research as any less valuable that any other countries just that it is not more than something to add to the evidence available :)

On the subject of rabies jabs, my pet hate is when people tell me that they give the rabies jab every year, because some European countries require it to be given annually.  This is despite the fact that DEFRA have confirmed that you only need abide by the laws of your country, even if you're a visitor in another country with your dog.  That's what the Pet Passport "agreement" is all about.  So now there are lots of doggies out there and lots of misinformed vets and customers who are giving them this powerful rabies jab annually instead of 3 yearly, just because they are worried about the laws of some of the countries they might travel to (which don't affect them anyway).

I agree - something else vets/drug manufactuerers need to get their acts together about!  I think the whole point in this is that most pet owners are misinformed by lots of vets, not all but quite a lot!   Our old vet (not in age) was a prime example of this!

It would be fantastic if legislation could be passed to titre every animal to establish which vaccine was needed and when, and not able to vaccinate without the levels being known!  If the drug manufacturers offered this to all vets, I'm sure they would take it up.  And who cares if it cost a little bit more as long as our pets were safe?

Maria

ps: oh and thanks for your info on socialising too!

>And who cares if it cost a little bit more as long as our pets were safe?

So only comparatively well-off people should be allowed dogs? A tad harsh, I think. :(

Interestingly 123, a friend of mine will shortly be titre testing her dog who has never been vaccinated but has been given nosodes.  Her vet thinks it is a waste of time but if the tests come back that the dog has sufficient antibodies, it will be intriguing won't it?

That'd certainly be interesting, because it opens up so many questions! The dog could have been exposed to disease and has fortunately only had a mild attack, just being a bit 'off-colour' for a while; that vaccination is unnecessary; or that titre-testing can give false positives .... Let us know the results, won't you?

As has been mentioned many times before, antibodies are only part of the immune system.  Memory cells can't be tested yet anyway..............

Will just add that another breeder who stopped vaccinating (uses nosodes) 6 years ago, had kennel cough (not personally!) last year.  Out of her 12 dogs, the 4 who hadn't been vaccinated didn't cough at all but the other 8 all needed veterinary treatment.

I titre test before I vaccinate puppies & my BC's titre levels did need boosting(he was 13 weeks) one month after his vax he was titre tested & the levels showed the vaccinnations(no lepto BTW)had worked, 6 months later another titre test showed virtually the same levels & he is now in line with my other dogs for titre tesing. The others are also given Nosodes

BTW I know a lady who doesn't vaccinate(had mega immune problems in past relating to vaccinations with various dogs going back nearly 30 years)Her dogs are titre tested & all show good levels They only get nosodes

Does homeopathy stimulate the immune system or the immune response?  If it's the immune system, then titre testing will not reveal anything apart from if the dog had recent exposure?

If a homeopathic treated dog did have recent exposure and has circulating antibodies which are then detected by a titre test, then it is quite possible the treatment prevented him from succumbing to the disease?  Am I thinking among the right lines......? 

As Val says nothing scientifically proven, in fact much evidence has been scientifically produced that it doesn't work, gallingly, often at the expense of the NHS.  As opinions have been sought :) this chap's article sums up just about every thing I would like to say about homoeopathy.

Probably going to regret this but out of interest, what's your explanation for dogs which have never been vaccinated having high levels of immunity Isabel?

Exposure to disease I would have said but I have never actually known a dog with high levels of immunity without vaccination so the matter is hearsay to me anyway.

Isabel
So do you titre test to establish their levels of immunity?   If so, how often do you titre every year or every 3 years?
Maria

No I have my dogs vaccinated as per the British Veterinary Associations policy.  The period of immunity assured by the manufacturers on some vaccines is 1 year and 3 years on others but none are assured for longer so if your dog was adequately covered at 1 year or 3 years repectively (as you would expect) you cannot leave it a further 3 years because there is no assurance offered that the cover will remain adequate beyond that, if you do not booster at that point.  You might take a chance and leave it a year, as suggested by labs selling these tests, but really there are no assurances offered that it will last even that long.

Hi Isabel
But if you don't titre how would you know whether the dogs have immunity or not.  You did say you hadn't known a dog with immunity that hadn't been vaccinated, I just wondered how you would know this if you don't titre? 
Maria

Perhaps I could have worded it better :)  I don't know any dogs that are not vaccinated so, therefore, cannot know any that are not vaccinated but have high immunity.
I cannot be 100% sure that my vaccinated dogs have full immunity but by following the BVA's policy I am taking the option that they recommend as being the most likely to afford them cover.

I see thanks for clarifying that!

You do ask em don`t you S! :rolleyes: :D :D

Here you are, some more for you to read :D

http://www.homeopathic.com/articles/intro/immune_system.php

Her dogs are titre tested & all show good levels They only get nosodes

Sounds like my friend's vet may be wrong when he says she is wasting money MM!

Well I do know there have been no parvo, distemper etc near my friend before the dogs were tested & she had some puppies titre tested before they had met any dogs other than her own

She had a bitch who was vaccine damaged in the 1970's

How can she know they had no contamination at all.  Litters have been infected with disease without them or the dam leaving the house so we know other sources of contamination are possible.

so we know other sources of contamination are possible. Like what ?

You have no knowledge of these dogs nor where they live nor how they are raised or the breeder so this comnment How can she know they had no contamination at all. is presuming she knows nothing about what her bitches & puppies come into contact with, :rolleyes: without "insider"knowledge of them

Hi Moonmaiden
I've contacted a vet about titre testing Jasper and his opinion was that we shouldn't do this until he is 16 weeks old, does this sound about right or can we do it sooner?  We would then have to wait another 2 weeks for the results I believe, making him 18 weeks before we can take him out and about  - I'm also concerned about getting him socialised!!

Hi Maria
I can understand your concern about socialising - such an important part of Jaspar's development.
I know that even at this young age he's probably no lightweight but if you can manage to carry him down to the local shops it'll give him the opportunity of experiencing the wider world and all its sights and sounds.  If it's too far to walk, maybe take him in the car and sit on a bench with him - knowing how cute he is I'm sure he'll get plenty of attention :) 

Hi tyby
I think that's what I'll start doing, and yes he should get lots of attention with his cuteness!!
Maria

Did they say why 16 weeks if this is to allow the maternal immunity to wane I would expect them not to vaccinate any dog before this age

Yes, it was to do with the maternal immunity!   The vet did say vaccination is best started at 8 weeks which I know isn't safe, that's why I questioned his timings on titres!
Maria