Some of you will remember I had some problems with my 8 month old EBT x Lhasa apso bitch puepa.

Barking and growling at strangers, snarling if a stranger tried to touch her.
She would randomly decide someone looked suspicious and would go mad.

She has always been aloof with strangers, worse with adults than children. She gets on very well with the family. In fact she is the most docile, quite loving dog with the family. The got worse with strangers after her first season had finished.

Then one day when I was out side my house talking to a neighbour, some kids came over and started to tease puepa. I told them to leave her alone. And one ran over to try and touch puepa and she snapped.
It was at that point I decided that enough was enough and we needed to address the problem. She had never been physical before.

She was checked out at vets who gave her the all clear for physical discomfort.
I then got in contact with a friend who does some dog training. She felt puepas body language look very submissive when she barked at strangers. Almost like she was afraid rather than actively seeking out the person to bark at them.

We progressed a bit further and then I was asked what puepa was like when she walked by someone else, instead f me.

I did not know because no one else does anything with my dogs.

So she arranged to take puepa out on her own with out me to see if there was a difference in her behaviour.

Puepa met many strangers on the walk but was not interested at all. In fact she was relaxed was very happy.

Again I took her on the same route with trainer and as soon as we saw someone puepa started to bark and growl.

It would appear that puepas behaviour is consistent with a dog who is being over protective of there owner.
My friend doesn't think puepa really wants to act the way she is doing. But she feels she has to protect me when I go out and almost forces her self to ward off strangers.

This would make sense as when she barks at the strangers her tail is clamped down between her legs her ears are flat back and she avoids eye contact.

Friend has had dealings with EBT and Lhasa apso. But obviously because puepa is a cross between the 2. It appears she has inherited the protective nature from both and is overly protective. If a dog approaches me on the walk, puepa will also act protectively then and growl at the dog to keep away from me.
But she will play with any dog and is friendly. If the dogs approach her and not me, if that makes sense

She does try to guard me from my other dogs in the house, and follows me around like a lamb.

Has anyone got any help or advice on what could be done to try and stop this behaviour? Or is it something that will probably be here to stay?

I would say your relationship with ehr needs to be cooled, adn also you need to think about how confident you are yourself with her on walks.  If you are worrried when walking ehr, she won't know why, but will assume a protective stance, which is what you were worrying about in the first place.

I don't know what your family set up is, but if you ahve a partner then I would suggest that he take over walking ehr and feedign ehr etc, so that she is less yoru dog, and her relationship with people is more generalised, as she seems to be a one person dog at present.

I have just popped onto your website to get an overview of Puepa. I would say that she was probably very undersocialised as you say she was kept in a shed and saw nobody for her first 6 weeks. If she was then socialised with the family, she would probably be fine with them but, still very wary of strangers unless you had put in place a very proactive and ongoing socialisation programme of her happily meeting strangers on a regular basis :).

It may be that she is protective of you, but her body language shows that fear is at the root of her behaviour from what you've mentioned on here. Dogs often behave differently with different people - it's hard to read exactly what goes on in a dog's mind if they are with others, so I wouldn't read too much into what happened when Puepa was with your friend :)

I'd think it would be best to get in a behaviourist who could give you guidance and show you how to work on this problem, as this will pay dividends over the months and years of ownership. Try www.apbc.org.uk, www.ukrcb.co.uk and also www.apdt.co.uk

Lindsay
x

I totally agree with Lindsay.

I know you say that you socialised Puepa, but in order to make up for her poor start you would have had to be extremely proactive in socialising.  It is very hard work to socialise that proactively, in fact it's a full time job, and as I understand it, you decided to take on another pup the same age as her - it's hard enough socialising one puppy which has come from such a deprived background, without socialising two of them.

Didn't you also rehome a young GSD quite recently for similar aggressive problems, which were also put down to a poor start before he reached you?

puepa came to me at 6 weeks. and i took her everywhere. to town to the park, to the shops, on the bus on the train. we met everyone, did everything. she was small enougth to sit in the basket of my pram and so if anythign she had more socilisation than my other bitch lupin.

i dont work, and so everywhere i went i took puepa with me.

we then got lupin and she played a big part in socilisation with another dog.

i dont feel this a lack of socilisation. with the GSD i used to have.,he came a very long way with me. he was very scared when i got him or everything. and he turned into a confident dog.

his main area of fear was out side. however once he got to about 7 months old he started to get a bit rougth with my little girl, and he never took to my OH.

compleatly diffrent to the dogs i have now. he never settled. he never seemed to enjoy the family life. always wanted to hide off ina quite corner somewhere.

he is doing well in a childless experienced GSD home now. and i knwo i did what was best for him.
i also dont knwo why the issue with benji keeps getting brougth up. becasue i have explained the reason so many times. it was hard enougth as it was. people go througth the same problem all the time. i had to do best by the dog and my family.

my trainer friend took puepa out again last night and this time she was barking at strangers again. friend things that puepa was probably distracted by the strange person walkign her the first time. so thats why she did not react.

she isnt liek it all the time.

also im not worried about walkign her, or worry about my ability to control her. the thing is that its hard to documant it when im the only one avalible to see it.

Sound like defense/fear aggression to me.   I've known dogs to be a little angel when being walked by a stranger only to bite them when they got to the (dogs) territory.   There was one in particular who was an angel in the vets until the owner showed up and the dog then had to be muzzled.

Familiarity increases confidence to out-leash whatever the dog is feeling.  If the dog has an underlying fear aggression problem, it can manifest itself more severely when the dog is with someone she is sure of or on her own territory.  A bit like having back-up from a mate/or the environment   Of course there are different levels of aggression, different triggers, different manifestations and with some dogs it makes no difference where they are and who they are with.   The behavior can manifest itself into an ingrained habit and increase severity if left untreated and it becomes the norm.

Judging from your post, there appears to be quite a few things going on here.  Both of you need help from a good experienced trainer/behaviorist for one to one sessions and also group sessions to expose her to strangers in a controlled setting.   It would be a good idea to involve all members of the family in the training to ensure consistency.  In the meantime, if you think she is a risk to people, I would muzzel her and keep her on a lead when coming in contact with strangers.     

Hi,

It sounds as if you did socialise her well then, :) was she actually happy with this do you feel? As sometimes the other problem can in fact be "over" socialisation where a young pup may be "overfaced" with people and can actually become wary of them that way. Not saying this is the case, but it's a suggestion. It could be an explanation if you remember back to how she was during that early time esp. the 6-14 week period. I'm not trying to lay blame anywhere but just trying to make suggestions :)

In some ways it doesn't really matter what happened in the past, although it's always good to know why a dog is reacting in a certain way. If you want to work on this, I'd suggest getting good professional help - do be careful who you use as someone who doesn't know what they are doing will only make things worse. If you get on to it now, you may well have a happier outcome :)

Good luck!

Lindsay
x

I know where you're coming from Lindsay - this thought did pop into my head too :-)

But if I was Wolfwoman, and feeling a bit sensitive already, I think my reaction at this point would be: "I can't win.  Either I've under-socialised the dog or I've over-faced her. Or I'm lacking confidence and passing on my fears to her.  Whatever, it's all my fault and I am to blame, blame, blame."

Lindsay, your favourite trainer ;-) recently said at a workshop: "Isn't it funny how good behaviour in dogs is often put down to good breeding but bad behaviour is always the owner's fault?" :-)

Just a thought.

Wolfwoman, I can only agree with the advice given above that it would be good to get outside, professional help - hopefully that way you will also feel supported!

Good luck with sorting it out.

I know what you're saying and I did say I wasn't trying to blame anyone - I don't work like that ;)

HOwever, I find that  sometimes going over different suggestions can help to throw light on a situation. Also,  of course, there may be many "lurkers" reading the forum who can see that there are 2 sides to some coins in dog training :P I always write my replies with this in mind, that I am not just writing to one person but to many who may be reading the thread...(why does that sound a bit like Star Trek?! :P)

From what Wolfwoman has said, it's an interesting situation - maybe indeed Puepa has been socialised well, was not oversocialised; but something is making this youngster fearful (going only from descriptions of the body language). It may be that it is the breeding but then if both parents were good temperament wise, who knows? Perhaps Wolfwoman was not told the truth and one parent was not of good temperament.... in which case it could be breeding! ;)

I agree with my fav. trainer's remark of course :D but as I said wasn't blaming anyone, more trying to get to the bottom of things through "questions and answers" if you like. I agree with my fav. trainer's remark because like many, I used to believe that a badly behaved dog was always the owner's fault - however I learnt better about a decade ago or more, so never "assume" these days. You can't be a good trainer or behaviourist if you blame the owner all the time

Lindsay
x

No, I know that blaming isn't your way :-) and I do see the Star Trek point. :-D  I had forgotten that both parents were said to have good temperaments actually.

Wolfwoman - do you still have Jim Bob?  Is there any chance he has passed on his fears to Puepa?

Hi - it's possible you did socialise her well, it's possible you didn't - we can't really tell from you describing it to us, on an online forum.  We'd have to have been there to know.  I was just pointing out that some dogs/breeds need more careful socialisation than others, and dogs which come from a deprived background need even more careful socialisation.  It's not enough to have 2 puppies of the same age and think that they will socialise each other - they won't generalise this to other dogs.

I would agree with what lots of people here are suggesting - that you contact a behaviourist who is a member of the APBC.  You said that your vet has checked Puepa out for physical causes, well he should be able to refer you to a behaviourist now, as he didn't find anything. 

I'm not having a go at you, I'm just confused and don't understand the history here.  I guess because, if I wanted a dog, I would make sure I got one from a reputable breeder who had carried out all the health checks on both parents. 

Perhaps, if I was new to dogs, I would make a mistake and get a dog like Benji, who you say had a bad start and came to you afraid of everything, because perhaps I would feel sorry for him and want to save him.  And yes, perhaps I would then find I couldn't cope because it's a lot to deal with, especially to start with, and perhaps I would have then had Benji rehomed, just like you did.

But, given that experience, and given what I would have learnt in that learning curve of having Benji, when I wanted to get another dog, I would have made even more sure to buy a dog whose parents both had excellent temperaments, who came from a reputable breeder, who had carried out all health checks and to get it right, 2nd time round.  But if I've understood right, instead you bought not one, but two young puppies of the same age.  You bought one from a pet shop and one from a bad yard breeder who kept the litter in a shed out the back and gave them no socialisation.  You didn't know the temperaments of either of the parents, and you could pretty much assume that no health tests had been done.  By buying from these sources and by giving them your money, you directly supported breeders who sell to pet shops and back yard breeders.  So, now, when one of these turns out to have a dodgy temperament, I don't think you can be surprised.  It may be nothing you have done wrong since getting the puppy, it may be that you have socialised the puppy brilliantly - but look at the sources of your puppies and you'll find the reason there.

what went wrong with benji was that he was beaten before he came to me. and he had triggers witch would send him so scared he would empty his bowels right there and shake and whine.

when we first got benjo just about every noise, every movement was enougth to make him cower and shake. then after a while he had even less triggers. he was starting to become a puppy again. he wanted to play, chew have fun.

he was depressed when he came at first would hide all the time.

as time progressed even ferther it was at times hard to belive he had ever had his set back. it was always there, but in the back round.

unfortunatly it seems that when he hit puberty, the things like having his own territory, and  with it the feelings
the need to protect his family were too much for him to deal with.

if he was in any situation he felt uncomfortable with he would now not only cower and cry, he would start to growl and bark. it was getting out of hand.

things that neve rused to bother him like the noise from my disabled daughter. she makes some unusual sounds, sometimes unvolentery. these would send benji into a frenzy.

this ment he started to become unprotictable. one day he nipped my OH on the leg for picking bethany up. i went to my vet who enlisted the help of a behaviourist. we had a consaultation, basically it was said with training and guidence he may get better.
however he may not and could go the other way and get worse.

he needed an enviroment that had a routeen, that was child free, and was quite. someone with experience of the breed. i foudn him a home that no only ticked all the boxes. but also had known him from the day i got him.
so benji knew them already.

he is with them now and happy and they love him to bits.

i decided that this time i was goign to get a puppy from day one so i could bring it up to addapt to the household with no bad experiences.

we saw an advert for EBT x puppies.
now the advert read. EBT cross puppies. will make nice medium sized family dogs.
now i had always liked the EBT, a friend of mine had one and i practically grew up with him. however i knew they coudl sometimes be a bit full on, even thoguth good with family. when i saw the advert and found out the back round i thougth that maybe the lhasa would quite the EBT part down abit. also the resulting pup was never going to be as big as the mother was. so i could have the EBT i always wanted, but in a smaller package to fit in with my household. yes it was a silly way of thinking.
however the situation at this point is not the normal.
the peopel sellign the pups had a health tested kc reg bitch . they were going to send her to stud not on her current season but her next season.

they were looking after a friends stud , health tested KC reg LHasa apso. the lhasa got at the bitch at the end of her season and he caught.

they did not abort the puppies becasue apparently it could mess her seasons up and they did want a litter out of her eventually to a EBT stud they had already picked. .

so they let her have the pups. however they were angry with the mistake, and becasue the owner actually gave birth to a baby on the day after welping of the bitch, they did not want the pups in the house. so the bitch had the pups in a kennel/shed run type of thing.
they had no intention of keeping the pups, nor wanted anything to do with them. and wanting to get the bitch back from the welping as soon as possible, they took the pups off her as as possible.
i paid 120 pounds for puepa, they said had the bitch not had been had and the pups were pure bred i would of paid hudreds.

the bitch had a very good temperment , and i was told the lhasa did as well.

thats how i ended up with puepa.
lupin fair enopugth i felt sorry for her in the pet shop and bougth her. however i have had no problems with her what so ever. even thougth puepa is from a mis match of breeds. she still came from health tested parents who had good temperments. so if anything her ways coudl be becasue the mix of breeds brougth out the bad in each.

as for socilisation, puepa has always been a serious pup, and always took things in her stride. she always seeked out new experiences and we were carfull not to over face her.

Sounds like she is resource guarding rather than being "protective" to me. Your dog is worried, not confident and she is taking her lead from you.

You need help in how to handle the dog in this situation from someone who can read you, your dog etc.

Wolfwoman.... can you get to Bury.... im not an expert but often someone else seeing what is happening, a new pair of eyes on a situation can be very helpful.

Em