Hi.  Can anyone help?  I have a 12 wk old pup that I've had for 5 wks.  He has had 3 bouts of diarrhoea for which he has been treated with metranidazole.  We are currently on the 3rd course - each course last 5 days.  With a few hours of having the 1st dose his squits start to clear up & his poo is normal until a few days after the antibiotics stop & then we start all over again.  I'm sure it's not his food as he's on his 3rd type & each food makes no difference & we end up on the antibiotics.  My breeder has sent me load of email responses to her queries which seem to suggest to me that it's possible giardia, especially as Freo keeps drinking out of puddles in the garden (impossible to stop with all the rain we've had even with constant observation!). I'm a bit confused now with advice on live yoghurt/slippery elm & botlled water. Should I be giving the yoghurt now, while he's on the antibiotics and what does the yoghurt do?; is it recurring because the course isn't long enough or is he picking it up again & again?; can I treat this without the constant antibiotics i.e. with the slippery elm.  He's growing well &  has no temp with this problem.   Many thanks for all advice.

Hi Helen, I'm sorry to hear you are having all this trouble, poor pup. :(

I can understand your wanting to try this that and the next thing in a bid to clear this up quickly, but it won't be doing the puppy any good at all to have so many changes of food in such a short time.That is enough to give any baby pup the runs. Has your vet sent a stool sample for anaysis, if not, how can he know this is an infective diarrhoea? Unless it is proven, and anti-biotics are found to be neccessary, I would choose a puppy food that is gluten free, a ''sensitive tummy'' formula, and stick with it for at least three or four months.

I do hope this all settles down soon. :)

Regards, Dawn R.

Hi Dawn (Rose I presume!) THanks for your reply.  It's the vet that's been changing the food!!! The latest one he's trying him on is Eukanuba intestinal formula & he 1st tried it without the antibitoics but after many poos overnight & diarrhoea like water he put him back on the tablets. If  - more like when! -  the squits return I shall be asking for a stool sample but I've read that it doesn't allways show up on the first & 3 are needed. Whatever the case I'm ceratinly going to stick with the eukanuba (despite the cost!) as I totally agree about the constanct change of diet.
Helen

What a start Helen!

I would put him back to the food that his breeder was feeding him and not consider changing it until his tummy had settled.  Have you starved him for 24 hours, then started with VERY small meals the following day until he's OK again?  Not ideal for such a young puppy, I know, but I would definitely try that before anything else.

Sometimes even the change in drinking water, as well as the stress of changing homes, can be enough to uspet the tummy, but starving and small meals normally sorts it out very quickly.

I do hope (for both your sakes! ;) ) that you get a normal poo soon! :D

Have tried the starving overnight, then small light meals etc.  This always works until any sort of complete food is reintroduced, but the last food we tried was JAmes Wellbeloved, which is hypoallergenic & the squits STILL returned, so I'm at a bit of a loss with the food, hence the vet trying the eukanuba intestinal.

None of my dogs have ever been able to take hyper allergenic JW!!  But they can eat other completes, and are mainly fed raw.  Pig's trotters yesterday with no problem.  But not JW!!

If it was guardia, then I don't think it would mend with starving  Still worth a test if it doesn't get better soon.........  But he must be due worming soon anyway and then that will be fixed.

Well the treatment for Giardia is a weeks course of Panacur.

Take the puppy back to your vet and positivly insist on a stool sample. Well, take it with you lol....you really do need to get this checked. it sounds like a friends puppy, that had the runs a bit on  arrival at its new home. This pup had food changed by vet a number of times, and put onto the Eukanuba one you said. Each time off the drugs started up again. Long story short (well I'm trying :P) the puppy had a very serious tummy bug problem, now it was a very long sounding name, and I can't possibly remember it, but it was a nasty bug that 'hangs on' to the tummy, as in digs in, and takes some very strong anti biotics to clear it. It can be passed on to humans so is quite dangerous. It takes an extensive stool test to find it. Insist on the lot, bloods, stool anything going, may be expensive but sometimes vets mess about to much in the early stages before they actually get on and find out whats wrong. By then you can have a sickly puppy/dog and its harder to treat. I would put the puppy on boiled rice and cooked chicken (our grade) no milk or treats, and await the results.

Are you thinking on campylabacter (think that is the right spelling, or something near).

Alison.....that sounds like it lol....love to know what the real spelling is, so I can look it up! never heard of it before, and the friend (well, friend of a friend really, it can get complicated explaining the connection ;) ) would like to know more too, as in how the pup caught it when the rest of the litter and Mum are unafected. But thanks for that!

It is a fairly common pathogen, but can be a sod to clear without the correct AB.  My freinds dobe pup had it for weeks (diagnosed) and none of his littermates did.

can't use panacur as the breeder has a litter on it & 2 almost died so i'm advised to steer well clear.

Helen, I had exactly the same thing with one of mine.  Recurring diahorrea, about the same age as your pup.  Put on ABs by the vet, stops when on ABS, starts immediately after again.

I wormed with Drontal + and it stopped immediately.  This has happened twice now so I don't think it's a coincidence and if anything goes wrong with the poo again will definitely give her a dose of Drontal +.

You can give this while they're on ABs, since we asked our vet and were told it was ok - but you might want to double check if worried. 

Yes, you can also give yoghurt while they're on ABs but it's unlikely to do much while they are still on the ABs.  The yoghurt has "good" bacteria in it, the ABs are killing all bacteria, good and bad, in the gut.  So it's more important to give yoghurt and probiotics when you stop the ABs than while the dog is on them, but it does no harm to continue while the dog is on them as well.

As you've been in touch with the breeder, did they say that the pup had an upset tummy while he was with them or is it just since you have changed his environment?  And was he vaccinated while he had an upset tummy or in 'the few days' after each course of antibiotics?

Apparently the litter had one episode of diarrhoea, after weaning I think, that cleared up with antibiotics.  As far as I know it was not near the vaccinations & the 3 episodes since I've had him have not been after vaccinations either.  I'm inclined to think it's giardia or something similar at the moment, especially as he keeps drinking out of rainwater puddles in the garden, but the fact that it clears up with starving overnight & then fish & rice until any sort of complete food gets reintroduced is throwing me.  It's not like I'm a novice either.  We've owned goldens for 18 yrs & this is our 4th!!

I ask because it's not unusual for pups to have loose stool when weaning if they are piggies and eat too much too soon for their systems to cope with.  Is the breeder experienced to know that?

Is it also possible that you have been feeding him too much at each meal?  I don't know what experience of puppy rearing you have. :D

There must have only been a few days of normal stools if he's on his 3rd course of antibiotics in the 5 weeks that you've had him.  If your Vet has vaccinated him in this time, that would also have been likely to challenge his immune system and cause loose stools, yet again.

Every change of diet is also likely, unless changed over a period of a week, (and he couldn't have been a week without loose stools to have had 3 course of abs in 5 weeks) would also be likely to trigger an upset tummy.  Even rice and fish is yet another change for his gut to get used to.

I wouldn't necessarily be concerned about drinking out of puddles.  Most puppies I've ever had would think it's fun!! :)

If he's happy in himself, full of energy (it's normal for pups to be mad and then crash to sleep!) doesn't have blood in his stools and doesn't have a temperature, then I really wouldn't have anymore treatment without starving for 24 hours, and start feeding with 1/4 then 1/2 of his normal amount of food over a 24 hour period.  If the loose stools start again, then I wouldn't accept any treatment without lab examinations so that he can receive the correct treatment instead of continually unbalancing his system with abs.

Good luck Helen.  Hope you crack it soon. :D

thanks.  this seems sensible advice.  This is actually my 4th golden & the only one I've ever had this prob with. I know I'm not overfeeding as he'll only eat the minimum amount for his weight anyway (he's a good size - not fat or thin & looks beautifully healthy).  Can you starve a pup for 24 hours though?

Not ideal but I'd rather starve for 24 hours, making sure that he drank plenty, than have yet another lot of maybe unnecessary antibiotics! ;)

The minimum amount that the manufacturers advise is always too much!! :) 

Plus they're all different.  If he's happy and a good size, then he's digesting enough???  That's my logic, but I can't see him. :D

Thanks Val. I think my plan of action is that if the squits return after these abs, then I'l starve him for 24 hrs (poor thing - I'll feel really mean but I've done it before with previous adults goldens & I know it works and with him being 12 wks old he should be able to cope now), then reintroduce the food in 1/4 , 1/2 amounts very graduallyas you say & if still no luck then it's faecal testing.  My breeder has e mailed me & said if it was a food allergy he wouldn't have responded to the abs which makes sense. I've just looked & he's on 7 days abs this time, wheras it was only 5 before so it may do the trick.

I think that sound very reasonable. :D  What food was the breeder feeding?  I would be tempted not to use JW.  In my breed, I know of many breeders whose pups really cannot tolerate it at all.  They can use the adult but not the puppy.

Helen, when was he last wormed and has he been wormed with Drontal + yet?

Is there blood or mucous in the poo, or is it just runny?

The pup I mention was fine, except for the runs. I would have more tests done, because until you can count out problems, from simple worms to something far more serious, you dont know how to treat him (as in the vet cant) Once anything serious has been discounted, then you can look at the food. Otherwise you will be going round in circles while the puppy is not recovering.

Hi,

Sorry to hear about your situation. Sounds very similar to what we had with our retriever puppy when he was about 4 months. We swapped food, gave him rice and chicken for 3 days, took him to the vets and they gave him something to clear it up but as soon as we stopped it, it returned. So then back to the vets and they sent off a stool sample and it came back as giardia, so they then treated it for that. He was brought up on pedigree complete which he still cant tolerate so we put him on to james turkey and he has thrived on it. May well be that she has a sensitive tummy as well as something else - my vet advised keeping him on it for at least a year and then slowly trying another brand if we wanted to.
Hope you get it sorted out soon.

thanks for all the replies, they have been SO helpful, and together with my breeders help have helped me get an idea what's wrong (still giardia I think) & also what do do about it..  Freo was on Royal Canin BAbydog when he came from the breeder, then swapped to JW lamb & rice, now on Eukanuba intestinal formula for puppie which I will be kepeing him on for a good few months come what may.  He was worned at 8 wks with Drontal & was due worming last week but couldn't because of the squits.  He's now been on the latest course of abs since Fri night & his poo is one again perfect.  I'm going to go to the vets on Tues & get some more drontal but also ask the vet if we can treat him as if he has giardia & see what happens. The latest course of abs will finish on Thurs so it's a 7 day course this time.  The squits usually return after 2 - 3 days off the abs so I'll update everyone further as I go.  Many thanks. 

Hi Helen
We had very similar problems with one of our dogs several years ago.  The only thing that worked was an extended course of metronidazole combined with Hills Prescription Diet.  The food was expensive but, once we were pretty sure the problem was cured we changed over to Butcher's Lamb and Rice. 
I do hope things improve soon.

thanks for that.  He's on a 7 day course of metranidazole & a (v expensive) eukanuba prescription diet so fingers crossed that it will work for him too & we'll be able to change to the normal eukaneba shortly (we'll have to stay on eukaneba for a good few months as he's had 3 changes of diet already in an attempt to sort this out).  THe abs finish in 2 days and I REALLY hope we've cracked it this time as I've managed to get him dry at night in the crate with just a 3am pee! I have already got a stool sample pot from the vets & if the squits return we are straight there with a sample!

Our puppy had exactly this problem and a stool sample showed it to be giardia. The treatment is exactly as you have been said - a 5 day course of panacur and if necessary metronidazole, which is an antibiotic as often they get a bacterial infection as well. If the panacur doesn't work then a 10 day course can be given.

As for eating, we found that our girl just wasn't interested no matter what we tried, i think because they have a very sore tummy, so just stick with one food. It does clear up eventually but its very upsetting at the time to see a little puppy unwell.

Thanks. I'l bet it turns out to be giardia, but my breeder has has a very bad experience with 2 of a previous litter, who almost died on panacur, so has warned me away from it. I'll see what the vet says though as it ceratinly needs sorting out if it returns again.  Please could you tell me how much the stool sample cost?

I did have problems with Panacur when I wormed them to my mind too frequently according to the maufacturers advice (3 times by 8 weeks).

A friend also had two pups on a drip at the vets when folowing the 3 wormings by 8 weeks of age protocol, and another was told to dose at the adult rate (1ml per kg) for 3 days and her bitch pup became alergic to it.

Previously and since I have stuck to using it at 3 1/2 and 7 weeks with no problems (then twll the new owners to worm monthsly from 12 weeks to 6 months).  I also worm the bitch in whelp with it.

Always get the dose exactly right and as it says .5ml per kg, I always err on .5ml less until they are a full kg heavier.  What I mean is a pup just over 2kg would get 1ml, not 1.5ml.  After all Cattle are given 1ml per 10kg of bodyweight and sheep 1ml per 5kg, so it is pretty strong stuff.  (I am talking abotu the 10% suspension)

Hi Helen,

I hope by now you have sorted your problem out I know it can be very concerning and frustrating especially if you dog is otherwise fit and healthy.

We have a golden retriever puppy 4 1/2 weeks who started with diarrhoea, in every other respect, fit healthy and growing.  We fed him on Spillers trial and puppy food and that was all occasionally putting some commercial dog meat in with it.  We thought the diarrhoea was due to something he was eating in the garden or on his walks. We were getting concerned so we played around with his diet and used more meat and less dried food the diarrhoea just disappeared.  We still use the Spillers just less of it. !

Hope this helps

Helen P