I am going to be deliberately obscure here so please bear with me.

I am interested in buying a puppy of a rare breed.  There are only half a dozen breeders in the country.  Breeder A has been breeding this breed for many years and one of his/her dogs won BOB at Crufts earlier this year.   Breeder A tells me that he/she will have a litter later in the year, right around the time we want to get a puppy.  I met both the sire and the dam and both seemed friendly and confident, although I'm no expert.

Breeder B says that Breeder A does not hip score his/her dogs and is not a member of the Breed Club.  Breeder B does hip score and is a member of the Breed Club and has many years experience.  Breeder B keeps all his/her dogs in kennels.  Breeder B is not planning a litter until 2007.

What do I do?  In my heart of hearts I know that hip testing is important, especially in large breeds.  On the other hand, I would love to get a puppy later in the year.  I don't want to offend Breeder A by accusing them of not caring about their dogs.  I am mystefied why Breeder A does not hip test - it only costs £30, they could just add that on to the price of the puppies!  If Breeder A does not care about the health of its puppies, why would he/she be so successful at shows?  Why would Breeder A choose not to be in the Breed Club?  Should I take the word of Breeder B who might just be trying to discredit Breeder A for his/her own reasons?? 

There is so much politics, it's hard to know who/what to believe.

I am mystefied why Breeder A does not hip test - it only costs £30, they could just add that on to the price of the puppies! 

Hip scoring only costs £30

Gosh point me in the direction of the vet that doesn't charge for the X ray & GA/Sedation. The actual cost to get a dog Hip scored is £30.60 plus your vets fees which can be well over £150.

I personally would never buy a puppy from a breed which has a known genetic or poly genetic disorder which has a test available whose parents have not been tested for any reason QED. My BC is not from KC lines but both his parents are Hip Scored(under the breed mean/average/median)

Would definately wish to buy from a breeder that is a member of a breed club and does all the health testing recommended by that club.  It would be easy to check if she is member, and indeed if she takes the relevent tests, through the club itself.  The keeping in kennels part would not trouble me, particularly with a large breed.

If Breeder A does not care about the health of its puppies, why would he/she be so successful at shows?  Why would Breeder A choose not to be in the Breed Club?  Should I take the word of Breeder B who might just be trying to discredit Breeder A for his/her own reasons??

Health has nothing to do with looks as it needn't be obvious- hence I have a dog whose full brother is a show champion yet their breeder didn't think hip scores important and my boy has a score of 96. (And yes lots of problems with it -but no signs until he was 6.) I would never, ever buy a dog of a large breed whose parents were not hip scored with acceptable scores, and I would simply ask the breeder the scores of the parents -it's not something he or she can hide as if they are scored the scores are printed on the puppies' registration certificates. Nor is it something any decent breeder would be offended at being asked, or surprised at being asked. In fact personally as a breeder I would expect people to ask me that question. So just ask, and then decide. :)

And yes, like MM says, hip scoring can easily cost close to £200. But it's a one off cost and something all responsible breeders should do if their breed is one known to have problems with HD.

mine cost £75

Mine last Feb cost £170

mine was about a 2years ago

I know a breed club in this country which is virtually impossible to become a member of, so i wouldn't criticise a breeder for not being a member of the club, as you don't know the backround. But there's no excuse for not hip scoring.

What breed did you decide to get in the end? Maybe a few members here might know which breeders you are talking about and would be able to give you further guidance.

Hi Alicey,

Have you actually asked breeder A if she hip scores? or just taken the say so of Breeder B?

It is not unusual to find a breeder is not a member in a club, especially in a Rare Breed IMO!!

:-)

You can ring the Kennel club,a nd ask the Hip score for any registered dog,and any other health scheme info that is a matter of public record.

Hi Alicey,

These are exactly the sort of questions you should be asking the breeder herself. PLUS loads of others like , where are the pups kept, what sort of daily handling and socialisation they will get, etc, etc. Good breeders will see this as a good sign of a caring and responsible owner. If the breeder gets defensive about your questions then this is the perfect sign to walk away. You will probably find that breeder B may not have completely honest and that breeder A answers your questions to your satisfaction.

The important thing is not to be afraid to ask all these questions to the breeder. This is how you are going to get a feel for what sort of breeder she is and whether you should be buying a puppy from her.

I remember asking a breeder what she will do with the pups from when they were born to 8 weeks and she said that she will worm them and wean them. I asked the same question to the breeder I eventually got my pup from and the list was extensive - including training them to the whistle from when they were born!!! Needless to say, it was the best decision I have ever made and my pup has turned out wonderful!

Your life is going to turn upside down when you get a pup anyway, wether it is now or later on the year. What's important is not when you get a pup, but what sort of dog it will become. Helath, temperament and good early socialisation are extremely important. You do not want heartache later on.

All the best,
Patty

Firstly you dont say how successful either breeder has been, other than one recent win.

The questions you pose about breeder A you should ask breeder A. Breeder B may not be telling the truth.

There are some very off breed clubs, run by people who think the club is their own private property - so don't worry about that, probably says more about the club than the breeder.

Are hips a problem in the breed? This site does seem to get very excited about hip scores.

What is your aim with your puppy, are there other breeders. When the litter is due should not be a consideration, good pups are worth waiting for.

Thank you for all your replies.

First - doh! I had followed a link to the BVA that I saw on here about hip tests and the price was stated there, I had not considered the cost of sedation, xray etc.  That makes more sense now.

One person asked if hips were a problem in the breed.  I don't know, how would I find out?  It mentioned hip dysplasia in some of the articles I read online, and the breed club secretary advised me to get a pup from hip scored parents.  The breed is large to giant, and I believe this size category is more prone to hip problems.

I am not planning to show the puppy (although I might change my mind!) it is primarily going to be a family pet.  So health and temperament are our number one concerns, I don't mind if it doesn't meet the breed standard 100% i.e. if it has the wrong colouring for example.

I will force myself to speak to Breeder A.  To be honest I'm a complete newbie and I find it quite hard talking to breeders.  I don't want them to take offence because I'm asking them difficult questions, or to think we aren't suitable owners because we don't know enough.  To be honest, I don't even really know what questions I should be asking!  One poster said I should ask them about daily handling and socialisation, but I won't know whether the answers I get are "good" or "bad".  For example, if they say, "I handle the pups for five minutes a day each" is that good or bad?  How can I find out?  Do you have any suggestions of books to read?

One poster asked about the success of the various breeders.  I don't know - how do I find out?  Where are results published?  Does it even matter if a breeder has a lot of show success if I am only interested in health/temperament, as it seems that the two are not neccesarily linked...?

http://www.bva.co.uk/public/chs/bms2006.pdf  This is a list of dog breeds hip scored with the ranges they have scored between, and the averge scores etc. If you are talking of the breed you considered before, yes it definitely should be scored. :)

One poster asked about the success of the various breeders.  I don't know - how do I find out?  Where are results published?  Does it even matter if a breeder has a lot of show success if I am only interested in health/temperament, as it seems that the two are not neccesarily linked...?

If you know the affix (kennel name) of the person, just search on Google. Championship show results are published on the internet so you're bound to find something.

As to if showing matters -not necessarily, there are of course otehr things, different forms of working etc (obedience, working trials, field trials etc etc), but if you find a bredeer that doesn't do ANYTHING i.e. doesn't show or work in any form, then you'd ask yourself exactly WHY they breed -is it only to make money? The responsible breeder tends to breed for a particular reason, and often will only breed a litter when they want to keep a pup back themselves, they don't just breed to sell. So yes, finding show or working results is good. :)

If it's a rarish breed then show results don't always matter as much because quite often only one or two go to the shows so they don't have the competition that Lab's, CKCS's have etc.

Also if it's a rare breed I would wonder why they are not a member of the breed club and why they don't do the recommended health tests.

Have a look at the BVA link that you've been given and if hipscores are quite high in the breed, I would then worry if the dogs are not hipscored.

What breed is it anyway?

If it's a rarish breed then show results don't always matter as much because quite often only one or two go to the shows so they don't have the competition that Lab's, CKCS's have etc.

Have to respectfully disagree here -if it's a rare breed (and if it is the breed I believe, then not as rare as yours or even mine) the it matters even more if a breeder goes to shows, as that's the way to get the breed known and in time get it off import register/reach champ.ship status.The RESULTS can't be compared in the same way as a popular breed, but the fact that there is an AIM matters. :)

You don't get what I'm talking about!!  They don't have as many dogs to compete against, more usually a 100 or more less per show so they can gain some qualifications easier than well known breeds!

I've been campaining my breed for 13 years and showing them since they've been able to although I don't go to many shows as I live on my own and can't afford to go all over the country with them.

I for one, know how hard it is for a rare breed to get off the ground but to be truthful in some ways I worry about rare breeds that get off the ground too quickly.

Thank God myself and my 3 friends didn't rush our breed as I think that it would have ruined it, the wrong people getting hold of them etc. for the wrong reasons.  We've taken it nice and slowly and although I suppose some people may moan about how long it's taken for us to be accepted I for one am glad! :d

Maybe the breeder A isnt a member of the breed club because of the fighting. I am a member of 2 IR breed breed clubs because I really like the breeds and want to know more. In both cases the club's data base has been used by a 'rival faction' and in on case members sent anamous and poisonous letters about the goings on of the breed club. I will seriously consider renewing when the time comes - not the way to promote a bree and get it off the IR.
Many breeds with rare staus have entries far higher than CC breeds. CKCS and Lab are rather extreme examples.
If you want the dog as a family pet, then yes temperament ahd health are the most inportant - but then both should be the most important in the show ring. Someone who breeds dogs that consistently do well is likely to know what they are doing and sell you something that will at last look like the breed you want to buy.

This isn't the right place to discuss things like that.  More than happy to discuss it privately as long as it's not anonymously :d :d
Unfortunately I know which club you are talking about, shame as they do a lot of good fun days and interesting events for the breed involved!

But surely that is no reason to NOT show?

I didn't say that I don't show!!  I'm not against showing either.  Think that what I'm saying is being taken way out of context here.

Just that the dogs don't have to have titles etc. as many rare breeds can't get them!

I remember one breed where a dog was winning everything and actually there was only about two being shown, it was nothing like the breed in Europe where the breed are from but it won all that was available.  Also the person who originally imported the breed said that it was not to standard!  Before anybody tries to say anything it is not one of my breed:d

I didn't say that I don't show!!  I'm not against showing either.  Think that what I'm saying is being taken way out of context here.

Just that the dogs don't have to have titles etc. as many rare breeds can't get them!

Don't think I ever said anything about titles either (or that it had to be fantastic results) -not very likely when my breed has only ever had 2 shows with tickets on ;) I was just making the point that a breeder that DOES show is more than likely breeding for a reason other than just to produce pups and make money. And by Googling and finding show results you'll easily find out if somebody shows or not in a rare breed. :)

Hey really started something here :d :d

Sorry agree with most things but not everything.  Will not say anymore on the subject. 

:) I think we're a slightly cross purposes anyway. :) In a nutshell the only point I was trying to make was that people who breed for no actual reason such as showing OR smilar often (not always, but often) just do so to make money.

:d :d !!!!!!!  he, he.  I should be working now, better get doing some!