This makes very interesting reading:
I hope the link works.

http://www.caninesports.com/EarlySpayConsiderations.pdf

Very interestig indeed, and really does go with what expereinced breeders and owners have always suspected.

Now that is interesting.   I've always shied away from early neutering, and this would certainly bolster my arguments against it.

Thanks for that, I'm saving this.

It does make interesting reading but I am still going with my 30 odd years experience of early/late spaying/castration, and entire dogs and bitches. But these are my personal experiences of my dogs and dogs I have known, so i am interested in finding out how these experiences pan out overall amongst a wider population.
I am about to embark on my own study of the matter so if any of you want to pm me with details of at what age your dogs/bitches were castrated/spayed  and if there were any health problems afterwards that may be linked to the ops or not as the case may be.  Also ages these problems occurred, if they were rectified, If your vet thought it could be linked and for those that have sadly passed on what age they lived to and again any probs or not.  Also would like to know if any got more aggressive, less aggresive or remained the same and if thier sexual urges caused problems before or after, got better or worse.

For those with entire dogs/bitches  I would like to know what if any health problems they incurred through life, how thier temprement was as a youngster and as they got older, did they get more aggresive or less aggresive or never show any aggression towards other dogs or people.  Also sexual urges compared to young and older and have they at any time been very troublesome.
Please also state breed, sex, and rough area you live in and whether you live in a built up area or open countryside as I am looking at enviroment and seeing if that plays a part too.

Bev

Looking at the article objectively you find that the study is made up from various other studies.  This means you need to find out how the author decided on what studies to include (was there any bias?) and also find out how the original studies were conducted before concluding without a doubt that the results are reliable.  I am not suggesting that they are not but without these finer details all you have here is a correlation betwen spaying and other health issues which doesn't prove that one causes the other.  It could be that the studies are comprehensive and scientifically tested, on the other hand you might find they are not.  You might also find that the original studies used only a small sample of dogs whereas you would need hundreds to give a study credibility.

>You might also find that the original studies used only a small sample of dogs whereas you would need hundreds to give a study credibility.

That's a very important point to make - it can't be stressed enough. The statistics on mammary tumours in unspayed bitches, for example, are based on one study of a mere 60 bitches carried out in California many years ago, and a review of this has shown that age and genetics may have influenced the result. And yet this is what is quoted as 'fact' ...

transfered from another site. :"The link to the article  posted referenced Salmeri et al's work entitled Gonadectomy in immature dogs: effects on skeletal, physical, and behavioral development. It is with regards to the age of the dog when the growth plates close and how early neutering can affect this.

The following text was written for a labrador site:

A study by Salmeri et al in 1991 (Salmeri et al JAVMA 1991;198:1193-1203) found that bitches spayed at 7 weeks were significantly taller than those spayed at 7 months, and that those spayed at at 7 months had significantly delayed closure of the growth plates than those not spayed (or presumably spayed after the growth plates had closed). The sex hormones close the growth plates, so the bones of dogs or bitches neutered or spayed before puberty continue to grow. This growth frequently results in a dog that does not have the same body proportions as he/she was genetically meant to. For example, if the femur is normal length at 8 months when a dog gets spayed or neutered, but the tibia, which normally stops growing at 12 to 14 months of age continues to grow, then an abnormal angle may develop at the stifle. In addition, with the extra growth, the lower leg below the stifle becomes heavier (because it is longer), causing increased stresses on the cranial cruciate ligament.

Also in your link is reference to a study undertaken by the Golden Retriever Club of America where they state in their results that:

Both bitches and dogs neutered at < 1 year of age were significantly taller as adults than
those neutered at > or = 1 year of age or intact animals.

GRCA Health Survey

So it would appear that a few studies have been undertaken to try and find the correlation between early neutering and extended growth."

THat's interesting. I passed it onto another forum..where my blood will be spilled for doing so! lol!  sO uf I get lynched I blame you!

I discussed this issue with a good vet I know whos practive researched this and they will not spay a bitch now until after her first season because they felt the health benefits in waiting outweighed the health benefirs in rushing.

I feel on the internet there is a huge pressure for early surgery fuelled by the issue of unwanted abused dogs ending up in rescue.  However these are two clearly unrelated issues...  i.e....the care of my dog bears no relevance to abused dogs, abandoned dogs, careless breeding....  as those issues are caused by totally different people..I share no part of my identity with these type of people so do not need their issues to be considered at all in evaluating when best to neuter my own dogs.  As well as rescues many of those on the internet pushing for early spaying apparently for health benefits are themselves breeders with intact dogs.  So I see a little double standards there and am not convinced their arguments are in the favour of other peoples dogs.  The breeder mine if from firmly believes in waiting for a dog or bitch to be  fully mature before spay/neutering.

It is not a big issue for me but I worry to see so many one sided opinions on a variety of forums over the recent years pushing people into early surgery on the grounds that rescues are full of unwanted dogs.   The two issues of responsible owners wanting the best health options for their dogs and the issue os neglect and  abuse should not be confused.

>I discussed this issue with a good vet I know whos practive researched this

Reliable and valid research is very difficult to do well and one vet will not be able to do this based on a sample of dogs from his surgery or even area.

Obviously there are clear opinions about early spaying not being beneficial to dogs but for this to be proven without doubt you need to study dogs from all over the World taking into consideration breeds, ages, diet, genetics, breed line histories, general health, lifestyle, lifestyle of owners (smoking etc), location, environmental issues (agrichemicals in area, powerstations), these are just off the top of my head. Unless you take all these characteristics into consideration you cannot infer cause and affect to spaying alone.

Biggest problem is getting the finance involved to do large studies.

Reliable and valid research is very difficult to do well and one vet will not be able to do this based on a sample of dogs from his surgery or even area.
yes.... he was a good vet and  he said the same as you ...there is not enough information to go on but his practices are prepared to loose income by making a stand against early surgery. 

I can not see any reason to risk altering the adult structure of a pedigree dog through early surgery... early surgery of dogs makes them tall and  leggy and I have never found any information to dispute that. That might not be a health risk but it is enough to persuade me that why buy a set breed and have it grow up to look like something else? I knew a lady who had a Old English sheepdog neutered early and he grew to be so tall with joint problems.  A Border Collie I know was done at 6 months he is leggy with joint problems, same with a lab I know. So was it bad breeding or early surgery?   I'd never connected the joint problems with neutering tough...but maybe it is... or maybe it is something else. Maybe just the local water!   There is absolutely no way of knowing and it would be very wrong to use fear to suggest it is...it is a shame their is no funding for more in-depth research... but when one can wait a couple of months maybe funding could be better sent anyway in other areas of research. 

  My first dog was done at 7 months old and he was very very leggy indeed! Almost a dog crossed with a giraffe! ;)

I would guess the best insight into this would be by breeders over the years as they should get a good idea about this by monitering the differing progress of their pups within their known line so they can see more clearly any divergence that may be caused by early or late neutering ?

Firstly, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with the research only that there are tens of thousands of research reports written each year on various subjects by all sorts of people and it is something that people should always be aware of. 

>I would guess the best insight into this would be by breeders over the years as they should get a good idea about this by monitering the differing progress of their pups within their known line so they can see more clearly any divergence that may be caused by early or late neutering ?

That would be accused of introducing bias.  It would be a start but you would still have to control all the other aspects that might interfere with the health and eventual outcomes for the results to be taken as 'proof'

a very interesting link, thanks. of course the difficulty of finding a valid statistical model is always difficult and for that reason i'd be cautious of taking the word "evidence" - as used in the study - as definitive. but for all that, good food for thought and certainly worth taking in account as part of wider research into the pros and cons of early spaying/neutering.

i'm always wary of bringing the so-called "good old days" into debates but i would say that in my experience and that of other dog owners of my acquaintance, the issue of spaying/neutering tended to be considered on an individual dog by dog basis and decisions were dependent on very dog specific factors.

nowadays there seems to be a quite unreasonable pressure put on people to neuter early by playing on the "if you were a truly responsible owner" factor. that it may well be wholly responsible to spay or neuter i don't deny but there is an alternative and choosing not to have your dog spayed or neutered in puppyhood certainly isn't evidence of irresponsibility.

Scientific research is always about variables and is never conclusive. 
You could prove, for instance, that bitches who suffered incontinence all had white blankets in their beds, rather than they were spayed early etc!

ah yes I guess it would be difficult to establish what faults were fron spaying and which from breeding and temptingly convinient to put growth faults down to spaying/neutering.

I don't think though that anyone can argue that early neutering changes the natural developement of the animal concenrned (it is why it is done).  It certainly greatly altered the development of eunuchs, both physiclaly and emotionally, and womens expereinces of hysterectomy and HRT also suggest that hoemones affect an organism physically and emotionally.

Because I am relatively new to dogs the neutering has been practically expected... so it shocks me this is so pushed as though people must neuter and spay if there are negative results from this surgery ...  Until I saw how leggy my previous dog was I accepted pets must be neutered and spayed and dod it because I thought I should ... now that I meet more informed dog people it is amazing how many do not spay or neuter...but still many will tell  pet people they should spay or neuter their pets. This seems yet another of those battles like the training methods and the choke chains and so on... where it is unclear to new dog people what to do for the best. 

i very nearly fell into the early neutering trap and how glad i am that i did some research and had a complete re-think. i wouldn't necessarily compare neutering with choke chains, however, since even in their heyday i refused to train my dogs by strangulation!

neutering, on the other hand, tends to get sold as a "responsible" solution to a whole range of problems that, even if they did present themselves (and there's absolutely no guarantee they will) may not automatically be assisted by surgical intervention.

As far as i am aware, it isa  fact that early, ie pre pubertal de-sexing WILL prevent the growth plates from closing at the normal time, thus these animals will grow taller.

Id like to know if that affects bone density which is of concern in heavy large animals such as giant breed dogs, and of course horses, who are generally gelded fairly early on as standard.

In humans, eunuchs had much longer arms and legs than 'entire' males of same age, same sort of lifestyle and they certainly had some other problems along with that.

I think to assume that pre pubertal neutering ISNT going to have a whole host of side effects is rather naive to be honest but we are expected to buy that view from so many people - i certainly did, before i knew better!

And yes, whoever said that the two issues of responsible owners neutering and the amount of unwanted dgos around being seperate - thats a point i totally failed to make on a rescue board a while back.

Responsible owners are responsible owners, ok there are a few who are responsible but not fully aware of all the facts - ie how long a season lasts, what can you do to prevent a litter once a mating has occurred... but for the main part, responsible owners who do neuter to prevent unwanted pups are NOT the poeple who would be adding to the numbers of unwanted dogs in the first place. The ones who ARE are never going to neuter their dogs - i k now one guy whose GSD x bitch is now on her third litter, again to a x breed free range boy who got lucky.
Each time he has bitched about it having happend, yet each time he refuses to get her the injection, refuses to keep her inside during her season and will not consider getting her spayed. He knwos wht the options are, he knows its hard work having pups about and that they can and will trsh his house (especially given he worked full time for the last two litters, leaving mum and pups at home alone from day one, in fact she gave birth when he was at work!)...

Em

Yep that is the one I cna never get through to people, that those responsible enough to neuter are the ones who would not be adding to the overpopulation and rescue problem.

I suppose the other type of owner should never have an entire Pet, but then they ideally shouldn't have a pup, or dog.

but for the main part, responsible owners who do neuter to prevent unwanted pups are NOT the poeple who would be adding to the numbers of unwanted dogs in the first place. The ones who ARE are never going to neuter their dogs
yes...they are a totally different group of people!  Totally unrelated! The two topics are not related.  Instead of pushing neuter people should be informed about how to manage their pets, about training and so on.

I found this on an  site about spaying and neutering:

QUOTE: "Bottom line of course is do you prefer a sometime leaky bitch sleeping by your side or do you prefer to have her dead ashes in a box on top of your bookshelf ?"

Basically people are being sared into doing this. I think it's very sad and irrisponsible to see these scare tactics used on some overseas  dog health information sites.

That quote is outrageous, and completely ignores the fact that some bitches are put to sleep because the incontinence makes their owners' lives a misery. :( I'm so sick of the continual blackmail and threats of these people.

Oh for goodness sake some of you do the oppisite and try to scare people off nuetering or spaying thier dogs.
In 30 odd years I have never had or known a spayed bitch or nuetered dog to be incontinent, feminised, more aggresive, or grow taller than unspayed or unnuetered dogs,  In fact a GSD I had was nuetered at 7 months and grew huge but when I met 3 of his brothers 2 years later 1 of the un nuetered and another that was nuetered at 18 months old were bigger and taller than him.  The other un nuetered one was slightly smaller.
My JRT I have currently was nuetered at 6 months and is a very small JRT compared to others and definatly hasn't grown tall.  When I used to breed Rough and smooth Collies I had them entire and unspayed yet pups I had sold and had been spayed or nuetered were no bigger than my ones.
The only incontinent bitches I have known were un spayed, but had they been spayed I expect it would have been put down to that.

I think too much is blamed onto spaying and nuetering as an escape when these problems would probaly have occured anyway.
If you are in a position to keep dogs unnuetered etc then brilliant, fantastic, but not everyone is for numerous reasons and I don't think these people should be scared off doing it, if its right for them and thier situation and dog.
Everyone will always have different views and experiences, but lets not blame everything onto spaying and nuetering when there is an equal chance the problem would have arose regardless.

>some of you do the oppisite and try to scare people off nuetering or spaying thier dogs.

No, we treat them like rational adults and try to ensure they get to hear both sides of the debate - advantages and disadvantages - so that they can make an informed decision. :)

It's well-known that castrated ram lambs grow taller and lay down body fat differently to entire ones. In the old days this was a benefit, when mutton was a popular dish and needed to be fatty to prevent it being tough. Nowadays however lamb is eaten younger and fatty meat is worth less, so fewer ram lambs are castrated. As Brainless says, it's well-documented that human eunuchs had a reputation for being giants as well. Human females suffer health problems post-menopause (think of the need for Tena-Lady, as well as the wellknown condition osteoporosis), and those who have an early menopause (sometimes as early as their teens, though late 20s and early 30s is more common) require hormone treatment to develop 'normally'. It's illogical to think that canines won't be affected by the lack of hormones in the same way.

In 30 odd years I have never had or known a spayed bitch or nuetered dog to be incontinent, feminised, more aggresive, or grow taller than unspayed or unnuetered dogs,

Well I HAVE. At home in Sweden when the law AGAINST neutering was lifted in 1989 or 1990 the Swedish equivalent of the RSPCA organised a march to the government buildings DEMANDING it was to be made illegal again as they considered it so wrong to neuter dogs and bitches!

I have a dog who was neutered at 4 ½ months. He is a good 4 inches taller than his litter brothers and MUCH bigger than both his parents. His sister, spayed at the same time, is the most timid dog you could ever imagine -you'd think she was are rescent rescue with lots of bad experiences -she's not. I have had to drag entire males off neutered boys as they were convinced they were bitches in season, disrupting a whole training class. I've watched a male dog of mine scream in pain for each step he took for 3 weeks after being neutered. I've had a bitch turn so aggressive after being spayed that she had to be put to sleep -TWICE. (Erm, don't mean one had to be PTS twice LOL, but 2 bitches.)

In 30 odd years I have never had or known a spayed bitch or nuetered dog to be incontinent, feminised, more aggresive, or grow taller than unspayed or unnuetered dogs,

In the grooming parlour, with over 200 dogs on the books at any one time, at least one in 4 spayed bitches were on Propalin drops!

My experience is when my Rough Collie pups come back to visit, they are invariably lacking bone, longer in the leg and more immature in their behaviour than their siblings that I kept, even thought each owner is given the same rearing information that I use myself.

I only recommend neutering of either sex for medical reasons or if the owner is incapable of protecting and training their dog - in which case they wouldn't be having one of my pups!

Hi bevb

>Oh for goodness sake some of you do the oppisite and try to scare people off nuetering or spaying thier dogs

I don't this that's a fair or accurate statement at all :)  If anyone comes on the forum looking for advice on this (or any issue) we are all at liberty to offer our own personal views - some will be based on actual experience of dogs we own or have owned and others with which we have had close contact.  OK, so you've personally never had a problem in this area with dogs/bitches you've owned but that certainly does not negate the fact that many others have :)

Just because you are unaware on a personal level of something happening doesn't somehow equate to "it doesn't happen then".

I don't think this forum is anti neutering per se - it is however pro fact sharing so that anyone seeking advice has an opportunity to weigh up the pros and cons of their decision before making a blind leap of faith that neutering is a cure all for all problems and carries no risk of adverse side effects.

regards, Teri 

Just because you are unaware on a personal level of something happening doesn't somehow equate to "it doesn't happen then".

The world HAS to be flat. I can't see that it's round! :D

I havn't said anywhere that its impossible for it to happen to spayed or nuetered dogs but it is also possible for it to happen to unspayed and nuetered dogs.
I also said that everyone would have different views and experiences and also stated that this was my own personal experience.  no where did I say that what I said was 100% true fact and you were all wrong, but reading the thread it seemed very one sided against spaying and nuetering and I felt the other side should also be pointed out, especially as I have lost dogs that if they had been spayed and nuetered may well have not died when they did.  I can't prove that 100% but like you can also not prove 100% that the dogs or bitches you talk about wouldn't have ended up like they have anyway.
With the best breeding and care taken in the world a promising puppy run on by a breeder can often end up being sold when it is older because either conformation etc not right or has not made height or gone over height, that has nothing to do with spaying and nuetering but is a fact of life.

> but is a fact of life

As is the need for hormones :) 

regards, Teri

I have had a hysterectomy quite young and I am a darn sight healthier now than I was before, as are many women but again not all find that.  Two sides to that as well.  Hormones in people and animals can do good or cause endless problems.

Bev

Hormones in people and animals can do good or cause endless problems.

Absolutely.  I would consider that a medical reason for spaying. :D

Would that be pre-puberty?   I have no problems with bitches being spayed which have had the benefit of being allowed to mature physically and mentally - and hormones play a very important role in that scenario.

regards, Teri

I would thnk it fair to say that most Champdoggers that breed have a real problem with neutering PREPUBERTAL animals,a nd I know many trainers feel the same.  Nearly all the breeders I know in my breed have their bitches spayed at around 7 years of age to avoid the chance of Pyometra (and to a certain extent to make life easier with fewer intact bitches).

Was your hysterectomy pre-puberty and were your ovaries removed as well, or was it just the uterus (as is more common).

but for the main part, responsible owners who do neuter to prevent unwanted pups are NOT the poeple who would be adding to the numbers of unwanted dogs in the first place.

Hear hear! At times "neutering to prevent unwated puppies" is to some a blanket excuse to allow their dog to roam the streets -after all, it can't produce puppies! :rolleyes:

I think if this thread has proven anything it is that dog owners would benefit from a thorough research study on the pros and cons of neutering. 

I have to say that when I asked advice about neutering on this site the advice was impartial and certainly not anti-neutering.  All I wanted was to make an informed decision but it is difficult when on the one hand vets say "spay, your dog will be healthier" and then experienced dog owners say my dog became incontinent after spaying.

Personal experience doesn't prove a point but when the same negative points are raised over and over then they need to be explored.

I agree. Neutering has to be a personal decision and more importantly an informed one. I have always neutered and have never encountered any of the side effects mentioned (e.g. growing taller, being feminised, uncontrollable hair, prolongued puppy-like behaviour, etc). I have had about 12 different dogs of different breeds and also see many other of my clients' dogs.

This is not to say it doesn't happen, but I have never experienced it myself (even lately with my flatcoat pup). For me, based on the information I have gathered and my own personal experiences, I will always neuter unless there are more reasons not to in that dog's particular case. I think each dog and each person is different and it is up to them to make the right decision for their dog.

I think what is important is to clearly state that these are people's personal experiences, not proven facts. There are still many old wives' tales flying around with regards to anything and everything (not just dogs or neutering).

Lastly, remember correlation does not mean cause! One may find that people who eat kebabs on a Friday night were more likely to also smoke, BUT it does not mean that smoking was caused by eating kebabs on a Friday night. Needless to say, the government takes great advantages of these correlations in their reports..... :-)

Cheers,
Patty

One may find that people who eat kebabs on a Friday night were more likely to also smoke, BUT it does not mean that smoking was caused by eating kebabs on a Friday night. Needless to say, the government takes great advantages of these correlations in their reports.....

Couldn't agree with you more.  Even scientists can prove what ever they want to prove - just depends how you present the 'evidence' and who's paying your salary! :D  Which is exactly why I base my own decisions on a very wide base of personal opinion.;)

>Even scientists can prove what ever they want to prove - just depends how you present the 'evidence' and who's paying your salary

A very important point.  Even wanting to do the study suggests an amount of bias somewhere.  This comes back to the link at the top of this thread.  There is no way of knowing if the author cherry-picked studies to support his own ideas.  Would be wonderful if the bigger universities could do studies on the individual points raised on this thread but the cynic in me suggests that these are the very people who support early spaying to prevent unwanted puppies.

Here is my favourite correlation to show that correlation does not mean cause and effect - As ice cream sales increase so does the number of drownings ;) :D

i'd never be so presumptous as to think i could scare anyone into neutering their dog. or indeed know enough about anything dog-related to be classed as an expert either!

but then i can't be the only person who recognises there are two sides to everything and that an advice forum is an information exchange that helps people research these dilemmas and not some sort of coven which dispatches scary dog people round to paint a big red C for "castrator" on the foreheads of those who've chosen that option.

You don't know about the CD "Coven"  MMWAAHAAA  :D :D :D

psst, come into the dark side Roz, you'll get to like it ;)

i'm on my way over. save me a nice incantation wontcha? ;)

This is all very interesting, I had my bitch Boxer spayed 2 weeks ago at 6 months.  It was after great deliberation, thought and upset. At the end of the day I found that 50% said not to do it and 50% said that it was the best course of action, I did not want to breed as I would not have been able to let any puppies go (yes I know....pathetic) so I would have had to do it in the end.  The day was horrible and I got really upset, but now 2 weeks on she is fighting fit again and crazy.  I have been told by a friend that she may change in appearance, but I did not know how she was finally going to look anyway.  I will love her regardless, but even though my dogs operation went really well, I would have to seriously think about a bitch again as I dont know if I could do it.  I suppose you need to ask yourself whats best for the dog in the long run.

Good luck to anyone thinking about it!!