when the docking ban goes ahead, what happens with the breed standards, does the kennel club have to ask the apropriate clubs to send in new standards with how the tail should be expected to look ?

do the people who do these standards know how the tails should look like ?
carol

The Kennel Club have included a non-docked listing under the breed standards now for Cocker Spaniels:-

Tail
Set on slightly lower than line of back. Must be merry in action and carried level, never cocked up. Customarily docked.
Docked: Never too short to hide, nor too long to interfere with, the incessant merry action when working.
Undocked: Slightly curved, of moderate length, proportionate to size of body giving an overall balanced appearance; ideally not reaching below the hock. Strong at the root and tapering to a fine tip; well feathered in keeping with the coat. Lively in action, carried on a plane not higher than level of back and never so low as to indicate timidity.

All the standards for traditionally docked breeds have (certainly since 2001) clauses describing both the docked and undocked tail.

The disturbing thing about all this with respect to dog showing is that breeders are now going to start focusing on one relatively unimportant body part, which potentially for some means that more important aspects of structure may suffer.  

Lets hope they can maintain sensible balance after all, the majority of us have had full tails as part of the standard since day one without becoming too focused on that *one part* of the whole dog. Lets hope after things calm a little (seen as it looks like they won't be changing any time soon back to how it should be, sadly) breeders will not get too hung up on this new item in their dog package.

Di

My breed in Europe has all sorts of tail types.  I'm extremely worried on what's going to happen with the breed when they have tails as they seem very inconsistent and as others say to get the tail type that we want are we going to lose out in other areas?   

This is something that those of us in 'tailed' breeds have to consider as well. ;) Wrong tail carriage, just like wrong ear carriage, can ruin an otherwise promising dog. But that's the way it goes - it's just one part of the whole dog.

Jean,
I think, and hope, that docked breeds who now have to be shown undocked, will just go through a brief 'phase' whilst this is uppermnost in their minds as it is new territory and talked about endlessly. Just as with the advent of Optigen being used more frequently in my breed (Labs) too many are now talking constantly about seemingly only breeding for eyes, and, i'm sure other breeds have been hit for six by something and that becomes the latest fanatasism, lets hope some degree of balance comes back soon to those affected by this and they DON'T think only of tails, and continue to breed as they would have, for the whole dog.
Heres hoping anyway from someone in a breed which has more fashion phases than M&S. ;-)
Di

I do agree about keeping tails in perspective.  It IS only one part of a dog.  However I'm not sure why people are getting so frantic about things. 

Every docked tail (as opposed to no tail at all) has a breed standard description of how it should be set on and how it should be held.  Surely a full tail will just be a continuation of that standard?  I realise that a curly or hooked tail is probably not wanted but this hasn't been a problem of biblical proportions in customarily docked breeds that have won and won well WITH tails.  Take the Yankees at Crufts for example - same tail set and carriage as per the docked breed standard but just carried on along the same lines.  I thought they looked fabulous and not at all out of place.

I really do think that judging a dog with a tail in a customarilly docked breed will be no different at all from before.  You judge to the breed standard - the standard has a clause for a full tail - what exactly is the problem?

Debs

I do tend to think, pondering on this, that a good dog with excellent type and structure anyway and a correct coat, the tail, like with most other breeds, is likely enough to be equally satisfactory anyway without lots of worrying about it.

A quality dog usually has an acceptable tail without too much breeding just for that trait i'd say speaking from a breed where tails and heads are our distinguishing feature....

Di

The problem again in my breed is that they can be born with all lengths of tails from an almost no tail, to a short tail to one that is just one vertebrae short of a full tail !!!  The in Europe there's the tail over the back, there's the tail totally curled over like a pigs tail, then there's the tail carried high, the tail carried straight etc. etc.  It's going to be fun :d

The in Europe there's the tail over the back, there's the tail totally curled over like a pigs tail, then there's the tail carried high, the tail carried straight etc. etc

But those are just different tail carriages and are faults to be judged and compared against the breed standard  like any other fault.  It's no different to judging any other breed.  You still have a breed standard that indicates what a docked and undocked tail should look like.

Debs

Yes but for a breed that has never been really seen with tails how can you set the standard without knowing what the majority look like?  I've only ever seen two in the country of origin with tails so it makes it rather hard.

Yep I did with the help of another write the breed standard but it does worry me.

Sounds very difficult to establish a 'norm' in which case.... I don't envy you at all.

Di

Our breed does something extremely similar - you get everything from an invert, through bob's short flag pole tails, full tails that hang, that go up but not fully over and a full spitz curl. 

Our new spangly breed standard - which admittedly took some pushing for states - anything goes so long as it comes of a sloping croup.  So essentially, if the tail set is correct the tail itself can do what it pleases!

Well look at Sweden, breeders there had the same worries  when the docking ban came in. Look at them now taking BOBs at Crufts with undocked dogs beating the UK docked ones. It clearly CAN be done. :)

"The Australian Shepherd is an intelligent working dog of strong herding and guarding instincts. He is a loyal companion and has the stamina to work all day. He is well balanced, slightly longer than tall, of medium size and bone, with coloring that offers variety and individuality. He is attentive and animated, lithe and agile, solid and muscular without cloddiness. He has a coat of moderate length and coarseness. He has a docked or natural bobbed tail."
This is an extract from The AKC Approved Official Standard for the Australian Shepherd - the American Kennel Club

"Tail :Customarily docked or may be naturally bobbed.
Docked: Straight, docked to no more than 10 cms (4ins) length.
Undocked: Set low following line of croup. Of moderate length. Never curled or carried over back. Well feathered. In overall balance with the rest of the dog. " 
This is an extract from The Kennel Club' standard.

Dual standards?

Margot

It was already done a couple of years ago.

But breeds with good tails...this is achieved through dedicated  breeding over many many years... they do not have good tails by accident anymore than they have good hips by accident!

the docked breeds like the Aussie are bred with deformed tails to try to make them fit for the purpose intended in bygone years when docking was not as safe as it is now it was more ideal to try to breed a dog wit a NBT.... okay...they only achieved this in a minority of dogs..but over is many many years of breeding. And maybe some of the most determined breeders placed emphasis on trying to achieve a near  perfect for it's task type of dog and so placed emphasis on the NBT...   ... so some of the  best dogs can carry this 'deformed' tail... So to  change the formula overnight... 

I have a feeling that within the show world there will be understanding and appreciation about the diversity of tails skapes and sizes in some NBT lines.. but will people want a dog who will have no chance in the ring cos it's tail is set too high or looks out of ballance or just unsightly...... and in the pet market... will people want dogs with deformed tails? 

My opinion on the docking ban..... well..... to be honest at first I thought there should be a ban...I thought docking was a mean fashion fad.....and then I looked into it from both sides a lot more and decided the issue is not so clear..... and when done correctly really it all seems a lot of fuss about a small issue... the tail issue should be down to common sense and individual choice... you'd think the government would have better things to do with their time them mess with unharmful traditions.  The more I've thought about this the more I see it should be a non issue...the government should  not be so weak as to be bullied into getting involved in childish squables and let things be... but then maybe that's the least of the worries with this government!  lol!

I have always thought it a non issue to.  I have not ahd a problem with it being for purely aesthetic reasons as long as it wasn't crtuel or painful, which from what I ahve seen of pups being banded it isn't.  Certainly I get a lot more fuss trying to trim puppies nails. :D

if everyone carried on showing docked breeds even after the ban came in, what would be done, ?
would the kennel club with hold all awards at shows  to the breeds that where docked ?
would they prosecute everyone that went against the wishes of the kc and the goverment ?
and i wonder how many people will give up showing ?
i also wonder what would be the conversation if this was the other way round say for instance we always had long tails in this country on the dogs that are now docked and the goverment and the kc said right now we want to have this this and this breed docked, would there be such and out cry if it was the other way around,

carol

Only dogs docked after the set date (which will be after the ban becomes law - it's still not been enacted) will be banned from the show ring. Dogs docked before that date won't be affected, and can be shown as they are currently.

....Gosh it will be interesting to see which Championship show, one turns up for Minor Puppy and you end up with half a ring full of tailed and half a ring of docked Minor Puppies. As the clock ticks over once the ban is enacted. That will be rather a shock to the system, then interesting to watch them filter through into the older classes over time until the whole Minor Puppy class is full of tailed dogs.

Di

Not only in the MP class - I have often seen siblings spread into MP, P and Jnr - the same at open shows where there may not be a puppy class, only jnr or grad  

Of course.... for the odd person who has 2 or 3 litter siblings, but the major place to notice an across the board change will be a Minor Puppy class in a decently supported breed at one of the biggies. Will be watching the Cocker rings with interest from across the ring-ropes to see if they do just follow or fight!

Di

wonder how many registrations will be completely accurate If you had a traditionally docked breed born two days after the ban comes into effect..........

I don't understand h9w the government can have a say as to whether legally dogs are shown (meaning those allowed to be docked under working exemption), surely who can and cannot show and what they show is up to the Kennel Club????.

I'd have thought so too.

you would think this is the case but it is the goverment that has bought in the docking law, so will they send one of their over payed politicians to go to every show to make sure we are abiding by their rules , i don't think so, the law really is just another thing that is bloody useless unless they are prepared to police it.
carol

I agree to a point judgedredd, but as the owner of a docked breed (and pro choice in the docking debate), I would not like to risk my neighbours or sombody in the street 'dobbing me in'', and I doubt any of the 'top' kennels would risk that either and end up being prosecuted and banned from keeping animals for however long. So, disappointed as I am, that it has come to this, I will be abiding by whatever the new law dictates.

What I find more disappointing, is that the dual purpose gundog breeds will now end up either going the way of most of the others, and that is, split into two types. Or breeders in those breeds will abide by the new law and more dogs will be needlessly injured. My bet is on the latter.

Dawn R.

i also have a docked breed and wish the goverment would keep their nose out of doggy buisness , and sort out the problems that we have with under age drinking,and the mess that this country is in,these idiots that we put into goverment debate wether or not ebay should be selling blue peter badges if they have nothing better to do i am sure we could all find them more fulfilling jobs.
i have to feel sorry for people that do not know if there dogs are going to be working dogs or not, how can anyone tell from a litter of two day old puppies who they want to keep,
i will be buying my next dog and it will have a tail, and i will try and show her as their is no guarantee she is show quality but i know the breeder that i am buying her off is not happy about the fact that that she is having to dock and the next litter is after the ban comes in i just hope everyone keeps on showing and not let any of this new legislation effect what we all do, having a bloody good day out meeting friends and making new friends and after all we do all take the best dogs home
carol