Hello all, firstly we are new here... so hi!

We have done lots of research into what to feed our puppies who are coming home in 2 weeks time, however, every single vet, breeder, nutritionalist, forum, website, book blah blah that we have spoken to/read say different things.

As they will be big dogs I think I would feel more comfortable feeding them something that is specifically for large breed puppies, however the ingredients and percentages of proteins/fat/carbs etc seems to vary greatly from brand to brand. If they are all for the same application, why aren't they all much of a much?

I suppose, more importantly what I havent found while searching on here and other research is what % of each you are looking for and for what periods of time?

Also, I noticed that Purina have just brought out a Pro Plan range which I suspect is to rival Hills/Iams etc.

I have heard and read pro's and con's of every variety of dog food, on all kind of dogs.

I've also heard a lot of "Well X gave my dogs a bad stomach" but no mention of how they introduced it and how long they tried it for, could well be that they did an instant 100% for 100% swap and was suprised that the dog didn't feel so great the next day and swapped back/onto something else.

Feeding large breed puppies is a very specialised subject.  Assuming you are well pleased with the adults that your breeder owns or has reared for the show ring I think they should be your very best guide although I must admit to a little trepidation as to their experience if they have let you have more than one puppy as your post seems to indicate

Thanks for the reply. As I said, every breeder we have spoken to has said a different thing, the 2 dogs are not from the same litter, and are currently on different foods so one will have to change at least.

What I was after really was fact about what % large breed puppies require for optimum development.

TBH I think there is little more we could read but want to be absolutely sure so figured a forum like this would either prove or disprove what we've heard.

I think you are looking for the holy grail :)  Every man and his dog has a view on feeding.  As I say I believe your best bet is your breeder as at least you have knowledge of what they produce unlike all the faceless brigade on the internet.  Although, I am still deeply troubled about any breeder that has allowed you more than one puppy at the same time, different litter or not, it is most certainly not recommended for the novice owner.

I assume they are from two different breeders, Isabel, if they're being fed different foods? Possibly each breeder is not aware of the other, hopefully the OP will clarify?

M.

You can prove or disprove whatever you want, depending on which side of the fence you are sitting. :)  Even experts in the field won't agree with each other and so I agree with Isabel and be guided by the experience of the breeders involved.
Just out of interest, are they both happy that you are going to have puppies of similar ages to rear together?  On one of the rare occasions when I accepted a deposit, I returned it when the prospective owners told me that they had booked another puppy so that they could have two to keep each other company. :(

What breed are you getting?

I would suggest that for the first week, that you continue to feed them with whatever your breeder is feeding, and change gradually to your own choice, if it doesn't coincide with the breeder's.

Like Isabel, I'm concerned that your breeder is letting you get two puppies together - I've kept two puppies of my own breeding once - and although they are wonderful, it hasn't been an easy 3 years, training and getting them to be independent of each other.

Good luck though - and keep us posted on what goes on!

Margot

I understand that peoples OPINIONS differ, but, scientifically there MUST be an answer to what a puppy actually requires nutrionally in it's first years- same as a human baby, or any young animal? Surely? If not, why doesn't someone find out? lol

We are getting a Doberman and a Rhodesian Ridgeback. We are fully aware of all of the facts (and mistruths potentially) involved with both breeds and of getting 2 puppies together. However, my post was asking about feeding specifically, would like to keep it on topic if possible please!!!!

<<Surely? If not, why doesn't someone find out?>>l


You can BE that someone :D

If you want a specialist's answer - ask a specialist!   There are many diverging ideas on this board, and, inevitably, the thread gets blocked:rolleyes:

Just type in feeding large breeds, use the search button (4th along, top row) - and you will find all the opinions there.

Margot

Hi Lokis mum, thanks for the reply. I spent 2 hours searching last night before I could post, as I say, couldn't seem to find anything specific, more peoples opinions.

Margot is correct, if you wish to find specialist information then you have come to the wrong place. Try: http://www.google.com :)

Oh, sorry, I asked on my forum about dog feeding (sounds odd but it's a huge forum so I know there are a lot of owners on there too) and was pointed in this direction for expert advice.

Google, books, breeder, vets and nutritionalists were our first source but as I said, none ever matched up.

Just find it odd that they make large breed puppy food that has to much protien in it, surely if they need less, they would have less. Real shame you can't trust even the big brands.

I thought there was a lot to feeding horses, apparently not haha!!

Google, books, breeder, vets and nutritionalists were our first source but as I said, none ever matched up.

That should tell you all you need to know then. If all those sources can not match up, then it is obvious that it is not an exact science and you won't find any better answers here.

The thing is that dogs will do well on  varying amounts within an acceptable range of protein, fat etc.  the manufacturers seek to maximise sales so they bring out the latest thing whcih at the moment is different diets for different sizes.

At one time there was just dog food, and the varied requiremetns were met by adjusting the amount.

I woudl imagien you could search in google for papers on canine nutriton and find tables that show the range of optuimum nutrients.

Things re furthe3r complicated by digetibility of raw ingredients, and quality of thsoe ingredients.

Every puppy is an individual and has different needs and tolerances.  If you had just one food with a set % of this and that some would thrive and some wouldn't.  Feeding dogs is not just down to percentages.
If you had 6 GSD's and put them all on the same food, you may find a couple thrive, one is intolerant to some of the ingredients, one gets hypo on it and another won't eat it and the other just doesn't look good on it.
Same as switching from Puppy to adult food, Its when your puppy is ready, some don't switch until 18 months but some need to be switched over by 8 months.
Its starting with a good quality food and if your pup doesn't do well on it finding something it will.

Bev

But how do you know the long term effects, they  might eat it and be fine on it, then turns out the protien was too high and they suffer as an adult as a consequence!! I see your point about different dogs though.

All sorts of things influence the health of your dog and not just food. You could feed it the perfect diet, but if you exercise it to much or do not do the right thing at the right time eg: outside influences, all will shape your dogs health also.

[quote=Admin]That should tell you all you need to know then. If all those sources can not match up, then it is obvious that it is not an exact science and you won't find any better answers here.[/quote]

Ah ok, sorry, presumed asking 'live' people might be easier to get a specific answer i.e. about whaat it is you are trying to achieve.

No worries we will chose a bag we like the look off :D ;)

Why don't you just stick to what the breeder has been feeding them? Mine are on different foods and its no more hassle than staying with one.

At the end of the day the breeder will know their lines best and what foods work best with their pups and their growth, specalist/nutritionalists etc can't tell you what years of experience that a breeder will.

You'll never know what longterm effect diet has on anything, because of all the other factors involved in maintaining health.

I know with Boxers it's not realy recommended to feed them "large breed" food,I understand Ridgys are a much larger dog but would a Dobermman be considered large breed in that it needs large breed food? What are the breeders feeding them at the moment?

The Ridgeback is on IAMS for large breed puppies and the Doberman is on Pedigree Chum for Puppies.

Thats interesting, because the breed standard of RR's are smaller than Dobes, and parents of these litters follow that too. DObe tends to be taller and RR stockier but I thought the problem was overgrowing height=weak bones.

So, if you can never know long term effects becasuse there are so many other factors then maufacturers only produce specialist dog foods as a marketing gimmick?

This is an interesting discussion anyway.

And what would you say about the quality and condition of the dogs that these breeders have reared?

And what would you say about the quality and condition of the dogs that these breeders have reared?

Do you mean the puppies? Or their own dogs that they are now breeding from?

Puppies become dogs :)

the adults if they have been reared on the same food as the pups are on.

starting with a good quality food

This is exactly our point. What defines a good quality food? The one that cost the most? It must have something to do with what is in the food? Surely?

Different breeds also have different dietary requirements - what's good for one might be dangerous for another.

The best food is any one that suits your dog's digestion and your pocket.

Of Course good quality food is not always denoted by price.  You look at the ingredients on the bag :rolleyes:

>I have heard and read pro's and con's of every variety of dog food, on all kind of dogs.

Yep, that's life! No two dogs are alike so no single food will be ideal for all. You could easily find that your two puppies need to be on different foods all their lives.

i have 4 dogs , only 2 are on the same food !! i feed what suites them individually, its just like out of my family of 8 3 of us are dairy intolerant so use soya milk etc, but i still have to buy cows milk for the others !! :)

Absolutely, and thats fine but we have to start somewhere. As i say it was realy a question about what levels of X were dangerous to development etc. But obviously an impossible question.

I'm dreading having kids now if feeding a DOG is this complicated lol

I would imagine feeding human babies is a lot less complicated than feeding puppies :D  Canine nutrition seems to be a very complex and often heated subject :).

I would agree though that you should stick to what the breeders have been feeding initially and then change it very gradually if you want to.  I personally feed raw and if you wanted to know more about this route, I would really recommend you read Kymythy R Schultze's book Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats, which is straightforward and easy to read.

Very best of luck with your puppies - I think you're likely to feel very exhausted, so prepare for that - you won't be unusual :)

I would be disappointed as a breeder someone didn't trust wholeheartedly my advice.

THe breeders of the puppies are the ones with the most experience of " their line" each lines grows and matures differently hence the reason for everyone advicing to be guided by your breeder. Is they some concern over your breeder opinion that you would come to a open forum and check that what they are feeding is right.

If I was the breeder that is what it would appear like to me. :-)

Hi RosieandJon
I asked the same question a few months ago for my large breed pup. I've tried a couple of complete foods that were recommended by other owners including Burns but have found that for digestive reasons he is better on a mixed diet of complete food & meat or fish & veg. I part cook his veg to add to his meals but give him raw carrots as a treat which he loves. I keep him lean as well. He also loves a bone - don't know a dog that doesn't!
Sorry I can't be of more help, good luck with your pups.

Not being funny but a breeder is just someone that has a pedigree dog thats pregnant and these ones are KC registered! They've not got a degree in dogs, they've not been to College, nothing is regulated, and like so many here have said- if every dog is totally different then teh breeder is in no better position to guess at a what will individuals from their litter as anyone else, so basically it's a big gamble!

I would feel better if my big dogs were on a feed specifically for big dogs. One of them isn't, maybe thats right, but during my searching on here that food gets a total slating, so basically what it comes down to is that no matter what anyone says on here, they are told they are wrong. I find it very odd that 90% of you seem intent on scaring people off from asking any questions. What you are doing is causing people to make mistakes with their dogs because they are too scared to ask!!

The 2 types of food that they are on now aren't readily available around here so thats not ideal.

And it's not about not trusting the breeders advice, it's about being completely informed before doing something.

Also, Iams is horrifically tested on dogs so maybe I don't want to feed that. But maybe all the others are too, who knows. If theres any science to it they must be.

If you want an answer I can give you one (but it will only be MY opinion) I have fed a variety of breeds, big and small, on Arden Grange without any problems whatsoever. However, I have always made sure that my puppies go with a bag of Arden Grange to their new owners then tell them to change them onto whatever they feel comfortable with or what is most readily available to them. You can tell whether your puppy/dog is OK on a particular food by watching their condition or whether they have loose stools or poor coat condition and judge accordingly.
The breeder of your pups should know what is best for their puppies and their adults unless they are first time breeders with little experience. Most long time dog breeders/showers will have years of experience and should be able to make a better judgement. Qualifications don't actually make someone capable, where as life experience is all important (as long as you learn from your lessons!!)
Becky

Beckyness- absolutely agree. You had a first litter once though as you say, and I'm sure every breeder has learnt from mistakes as they have gone along.

No qualifications don't make someone capable BUT equally saying that every breeder knows best can't possibly be right either.

We are fine with keeping an eye on them and adjusting whats going on there but I am the type of person that needs to be 100% informed before I do anything.

So I suppose we will just have ot be happy with the fact that they are dogs, feed them dog food and that will be that. Same as everyone else does. :)

"So I suppose we will just have ot be happy with the fact that they are dogs, feed them dog food and that will be that. Same as everyone else does."

There are a lot of different complete dog foods on the market all suiting different dogs.  If it is natural foods your're after then do a goole search for "natural premium complete dog food" and go with those with 100% natural ingrediants (mainly sold through the companies who make them and not 'readily available' in large pet stores).  If you are wanting to go with a food that is easily available to you and classed as a 'high end premium food' then theres an abundance of them such as Wafcol, Arden Grange, Burns, James Wellbeloved, Royal Canin, Autarky, Pro Plan etc etc.

Its really not a case of there being 1 food that is 100% perfect for all dogs - every dog is different.  Its a case of finding what yours thrive on and like to eat :)

Personally I see no problem with sticking with what the breeder(s) have the pups on at the moment if it suits them.  You say that you are unable to get these foods easily but they are stocked in supermarkets UK wide so are excpetionally easy to get

Personally I see no problem with sticking with what the breeder(s) have the pups on at the moment if it suits them. 

I agree. I have 8 dogs, and although 7 are on the same BRAND, there are 3 different verisons of the brand and I use all 3 -2 are on senior, 4 on adult and 1 on puppy. The food doesn't suit the 8th dog (NO dry food suits him, only canned) so he is on a different food altogether. It takes no extra time at all to dish out food from different bags. :)

Of course this is assuming the breeder yhas been researched and chosen correctly. I know the original poster wanted to stick to the feeding issue, but it is very relevant, if the breeders are knowingly letting their pups go to a home with another large breed pup of same/similar age. 

I would be very wary of such a breeder.  If they are willing to take basic risks with homing their pups (from a breeders point of view such a situation is more likely to go wrong for the pup/s), then where else are they cutting corners/lacking knowledge.

No a breeder should not be making mistakes (well none that may affect the welfare of theri pups). 

A first time breeder should be breeding with the expereince of others (their mentors in their breed) using their expereince and knowledge until they gain enough of ther own.

That is caled responsible breeding, any less and that is puppy production, and people should not favour them with their patronage.

The breeder does have experience though and has the results to demostrate to you that they are on the right track which is a heck of a lot more than you can ever know about the people posting on message boards or starting up web sites regarding their hobby horses on feeding.  We are certainly not scaring you off asking questions we are just giving you the benefit of our experience which is to ask those questions of the person best placed to advise you ie an experienced breeder of the breed in question that also has the benefit of knowledge regading her lines, that way you cut out a lot of the trial and error you might have to run, making mistakes as you say.
Incidentally the stories about Iams are best viewed against the context of the record of those people running the sites that promote them.  Yes, with a scientific subject such as nutrition you would hope that data is collected, personally I would not like to buy a food that wasn't tested but there are lots of ways of doing this just as effectively and a darn site cheaper than laboratory work.

Lets just say I can guarantee you they test.

What I meant by the scaring off is not just this thread I read old threads on here for 2 hours before I could post and almost every newbie gets a total total flaming no matter what they say.

I was expecting (as my forum is) that this place would be stuffed full of experts, but Admin has put me straight- it isn't, so yes those of you that have said we are in the wrong place are probably right. It was just another avenue.

They are dogs, I would like them to be on the same food if possible. They are only going to eat each others anyway and it would be far easier so if they are happy and healty on the same then that is best all round.

Lets just say I doubt you can, unless of course you work for them  ;)
If your own forum is stuffed full of experts you will know that one of the defining feature about experts is not that they know everything, because after all in the modern age data is changed and updated constantly, but that they know were to best source information.

Have you tried any of the mail order companies? We live on an island and order off pets direct if they don't have what i want they get it for me as soon as they can.

"I was expecting (as my forum is) that this place would be stuffed full of experts"

It is full of experts - experts on their own dogs/breed/lines health and welfare

Not being funny but a breeder is just someone that has a pedigree dog thats pregnant

If I didn't think that a breeder had the knowledge to choose the best stud dog, breed and rear a good temperament, healthy litter, and be able to give me advice on all areas of dog ownership, health and care for the next 15 years, then I wouldn't be buying a puppy from them as I would consider them to be a puppy producer and not a dog breeder. :)

And it's not about not trusting the breeders advice, it's about being completely informed before doing something

Then you'd better do your own research and come to your own conclusions rather than asking for other peoples' opinions.

You took the words out of my mouth.

If that is what the poster thinks of the breeder why even bother what the eat..  if it was a poor breeder with no experience the dogs would be the same.

To me this thread is going down the same old.. I want advice but no I don't :rolleyes: