Been taking Ebony to gun dog training and she did quite enjoy it but it was her birthday last week and suddenly the trainer expects her at 1 yr old to have made major advances in her training.
Ebony will not stay if told when I move more than about 10 metres from her (this is only at training, with me on her own she'll stay whatever distance!)
The trainer says I need to be hard with her and pick her up holding both sides of her neck and glare at her whilst shouting at her. I did at training the other day and then she refused to do anything!!!
The trainer asked me to stay after training finished and then told me Ebony is on a con job!!! Basically she says that Ebony is making out that she is soft and delicate when she's not. Where I feel that Ebony is infact a very sensitive bitch. She has always been fairly nervous and not willing to try new things unless your right there with her (unlike my other labs). Since training the other day I have taken her out and when I told her no she cowered. Also if I walk into a room she cowers. I don't want a dog that's afraid of me.
Do you think I should stick to my guns and train her carefully and with kindness or should I be harsher. The trainer has said if I'm not harsher with her then basically I might as well give up, but I want Ebony to do this for FUN.
I really feel that I know my dog best and when I 've asked friends they all agree that Ebony is sensitive. I have 8 other dogs, mostly well trained and very well adjusted, so really feel that I should go with my instinct.
Any tips or suggestions?

I'm no expert in training or in labs but I would stick with your gut feelings on this one, you know your dog better than any trainer who only sees her once a week(?). I would be inclined to ask the trainer what grabbing the dog and yelling is supposed to teach, if it's supposed to be respect then I think the trainer ought to come into this century!:) sounds like all they have succeeded in doing is turning Ebony into a nervous wreck who now probably doesn't trust you as much as she did before:( if you want it to be fun then stick to your guns and do it your way, you'll feel better and so will Ebony.
wait until Mattie or John come on, they'll give you some sound advice:D

Labs are a strange breed. People see the bold outgoing happy tail wagging dog and consider them bomb proof. A large proportion are, but not all! I could stop "The Flower" with harsh handling, just like that! There is one thing though, they are for more forgiving than some breeds and I would doubt there is any permanent damage done. It's always difficult to comment on dogs you cannot see and it is really up to you to set the level of correction. Some people are naturally harder than others and their dogs get blasé about it. To just say no to their dog would have simply no effect. Others using much gentler tactics would find their dog fall to pieces with a hard "NO".

I always like to work on anything new out of the class environment, stays included. Why do you do stays? Because you need to leave your dog! Use the stays, don’t just stand there doing nothing. Go and put a dummy out for a retrieve! Something which gives your dog a reward for staying! Your dog will very soon realise that stays are fun!!! "The Flower" is very clingy but will stay forever even out of sight while I put dummies out for "Blind Retrieves" because she knows her fun will follow.

I would hesitate to go against your instructor because I don’t know her or her abilities but I always tell people, "It's your dog and you should know it better than me." So saying, some people really DON’T know their dog!

Hope that helps.
Regards, John

The stays are supposed to teach steadiness and sometimes the dogs are then called in or sometimes we just return to the dog.
When I am training myself I do the stays as in class but then I reward her with throwing a dummy and allowing her to retrieve. However the trainer says dummies are for dogs ONLY when they have learnt steadiness and that we should not even allow the dogs off lead on a walk until they have learnt steadiness. I do allow Ebony off lead because as soon as I blow the whistle she returns and sits beside me.
The trainer is very nice and apparently she has won a lot of awards with her dogs.

To a certain extent I agree with her. When you allow her off the lead, be aware that YOU must always be in command. If you are then you are teaching steadiness! Be careful of allowing her to rush around with dogs you meet on your walk. Once she has started running then control has gone and what she learns is the chasing is more fun than steadiness. Never allow her to chase wildlife, bird’s rabbits, squirrels or anything! Once started it's very hard to stop! A little bit of heel free (Assuming she’s ready for it) is worth its weight in gold.

Can you toss dummies around her while she’s sitting in a stay? Use two or more dummies and toss them close by while telling her to stay, picking them up and tossing them again. The last time toss one a bit further and picking all the rest, send her for that one. You’re simulating birds dropping on a drive and retrieving when the drive has finished. As I said, try to incorporate some form of reward into the completion of the stays. It gives your dog a reason for doing it!

Regards, John

We do the dummy thing at training but the dogs have to stay ALL of the time and aren't rewarded at the end. When I do it myself I normally let her have a dummy at the end and she gets so excited and brings it straight back. I think from your posts Ebony probably gets bored with training for an hour + with little reward for her steadiness.
When she's off lead on a walk I never let her more than about 10 metres from me and she always obeys commands like come to heel, come, back, sit, down, and walks very well to heel off the lead. If she sees a rabbit and is off lead her posture changes and she becomes highly excited but never chases. She used to run forward till I shouted at her but now knows she going to be told off!!! She is also good if we see deer, sheep etc.

<<She used to run forward till I shouted at her but now knows she going to be told off!!! >>

Speaks for it's self, doesn’t it! She can take being told off! The difference is that chase is a "Doing" thing whereas the stay is a "Not Doing" thing! With the chase you tell her off and she comes back to you but with the stay, you tell her off and then leave her!!! Can you see the difference?

Again this is where I prefer to work on my own. In the quiet calm one to one training alone in a field or wood there is nothing for her to think about but you. In class there is so much more. Alone is where all the headway is made, in class you prove the training you did alone! Stays in obedience class is no doubt a massed exercise, all dogs doing it at the same time. What's the difference between that and the gundog class? Is she getting excited about the retrieving to come? Is the obedience inside rather than outside? Things like this can give you a clue to where your training could be improved.

Regards, John

Hello Nicolla,

Why do you think Ebony is "afraid of you"? Did you beat her up? No you didn't, but you did show some 'authority' over her, and it is the authority that she is rebelling against - She does not like it, and wants to show it, because presumably you allow her to do her 'own thing'!

You say you want her to do this for FUN - so you mean do what she wants to do. A dog who is 'working' for the handler, believe me is a dog ENJOYING itself. It is listening, watching, waiting for commands, from the person it considers 'the Boss'. If a dog does not feel you are worthy of that title they just go through the motions of an exercise, but with no heart and soul.

You say she is sensitive, (obviously I do not know you or your dog, so cannot comment), but sometimes our actions to an 'insecure' dog drain whatever confidence thay may have. You cannot put confidence into a dog by sympathising and comforting. You need to be matter of fact and positive.

I was going to ask you if your dog understood the STAY exercise fully, because you should never reprimand a dog who does not understand EXACTLY what is required. However, you say the dog will stay easily elsewhere, which therefore tells you that the dog again is working when SHE chooses to.

If you are happy and content with what your dog does, how it behaves, and your relationship with her, than fine. - But if you are looking to achieve more or have areas of behaviour that you would prefer improved then you may need to rethink.

Denise

Different breed and different training Nicolla, when I was training my GSD for agility we had a change of trainer one week. He told me I was not shouting loud commands at Zen, despite my disagreeing to it he said I had too, Zen does not respond to loud voices well and I knew what would happen, first shout and he flattened on the floor and wouldn't work for me, end of lesson for him and a lesson for the trainer that dogs are different and you don't need to shout at them all, my boy responds better to a normal voice and hand signals learnt from living with and elderly deaf dog. Ingrid

Hi Denise

I still think she is sensitive. I think the harshness of the telling off at gundog training was too much for her.
I have 9 dogs and none of them are allowed to do their own thing.
The night before gundog training Ebony passed her advanced obedience test (at normal training). This required a sit, down, stand, sit stay (2 minutes), down stay (2 minutes), walk to heel on and off lead, a retrieve with a present and a stay out of sight. Without respect for me she wouldn't have passed this.
I think I will work hard with her for the next few weeks trying to build her confidence and get her enjoying gundog training and I will have to see how it goes. I definately don't think I comfort her for being sensitive or nervous as I hate to see dogs like this. I like a good solid bomb proof, go anywhere, do anything labrador. Ebony has been brought up the same as all the other labs, except the first 8 weeks (I didn't breed her), so I really find it strange.

Hello again Nicolla,

Actually I do not agree that a dog who carries out certain exercises is a dog who necessarily respects the handler as well. A dog can learn an exercise and complete it as required, but watch closely, is the dog really 'working' for that handler. In my Intermediate Group, all the dogs obviously know what to do, but there is no point just 'treading water', I help the handlers and dogs gain that bit more, if they settle for say 75% that is all they will get!

Gaining respect is what happens in the HOME! This is the dog you are living with, the obedience exercises are 'icing on the cake'. When I am at Competitions, it is quite common to see a dog 'perform' in the Ring, then leave the Ring acting like a hooligan!

Most folk hardly expect much if anything from their dogs indoors or garden. For instance, one of the items I teach my Beginners is to call their dog while sitting just a couple of feet away in the same room. I warn them that the first time they do this, their dog will simply look at them, as if to say "What"? The idea is that your dog should learn that when you say "Come" whether is 10 ft or just 1 ft, he gets up and comes to you.

Equally, folk do not realise they REPEAT commands to their dogs, so they are then teaching the dog to ignore them, or even to respond the third or fourth time only.

A dog that performs a command (and yes, it is a command and not a request) 'sometimes' or 'depending on where and when' is a dog not taking you seriously, the dog is choosing when, where and if he will co-operate!

Shouting and stamping your foot will not turn a Woody Allen into a Clint Eastwood, and will not fool a dog. You have to learn yourself, and be consistent. It is very confusing for a dog if sometimes you mean what you say, and sometimes you don't. Why then should a dog take notice of that person, if they are not consistent themselves.

I do wish you well in your Gundog work Nicolla.
All the best,
Denise.

Hi Nicolla, just to add, you can have a sensitive dog, that is strong willed (sp) as well, and maybe this is what the trainer was getting at. Maybe she needs to know that you're in charge whatever the situation, and the temptation to mess about at a new place and with new people around is too great for her. She may also be a bit immature and just needs a bit longer to sort herself out. It's a known fact that they never behave as they do at home.

My suggestion is to try what the trainer has said, for a while, and see how you get on. Some dogs just seem to take forever, and with constant work, to get things right. But conversly, sometimes it's time to get firm and put her on notice that her puppy days are over, and she has to toe the line and stop p*****g about.

Don't feel bad about it, she hasn't had a beating, just a good telling off, and that won't do her any harm.

Nicolla,
It sounds as if you realize yourself that Ebony needs a slightly different approach than the loud commands. You seem to be looking for reasurance to go along with your gut instinct. I think you've gotten some here, so you now know you're on the right track.

In the end, You know your dog best. You have others that are working well with your style of training, so it really seems that her personality is 'off' at the moment. Work with her [$ figure out how she's seeing things and take it from there. You might find out that this is just not for her. Forcing her to have fun, isn't really fun ])

good luck with her. It sounds as if you'll figure out what will work in the end. You have the caring, the experience and the knowledge to help her out. Just trust yourself.
toodles

Try leaving her on the lead when you place her in the down - and then lay the lead across her back before you leave her. Some dogs are comforted by the feel of the lead touching them and are happy to relax and remain down. :)

I don’t teach a down stay in class for gundog work Lara. It's not an exercise a gundog needs. When a dog is lying down it is not in a position to easily mark the position of fall of a bird or dummy. We need the sit to be the all important thing so this is the one we really work on.

Getting back to the original question, one thing to bear in mind.

The most severe correction your dog can envisage is the most severe correction it has ever had! It cannot imagine anything worse. I always tell people to grade the punishment according to the crime for the reason that if you always use your most severe punishment you will have nothing left for the really bad crime. Likewise, commands, although they are commands, are given in a quiet voice. If they are ignored then the "Ton of bricks" arrives. BUT, everything is quiet in the first instance. "The Flower" knows when she’s done wrong when my voice changes from quiet and happy to quiet and hard. If it gets to loud and hard then it's "Take cover" time! I’ve never found it necessary to shout every command neither have I found it necessary to use physical correction AS A NORM! It’s part of my armoury if needed but not in regular use.

Regards, John :)

Well that just shows that gun dog training is not my thing at all :) - thanks we learn all the time! I'd loop the lead around the dog's chest for the same effect.