This is a bit complicated.  I have not posted to a forum here before.  I am from Australia and recently had some mongrel (Human) try to climb through my son's bedroom window.  There was major upset and sleepless nights in the household for weeks.  A friend who has 2 purebred Labrador Retrievers (gundogs) offered to lend me one so I would feel safer.  Holly has been at my house since 26/1/06.  Her owners have tried unsuccessfully to breed her (Holly is 4 years and Max is 5 years old), for years.  The both have excellent eye and hip scores.  Several members of their club have said they would like an offspring of this match, therefore they have assisted in previous unsuccessful seasons (to be paid with offsprings).  The owners had about given up.  Holly is a beautiful nature, never barks (unless guarding), she never runs off and extremely well behaved.  The owners have said if she breeds successfully, and previous vouched for puppies are accounted for, plus one for them to retain to follow in her footsteps... I can keep her.  As she fits in beautifully I would love this, but she is also a valuable part of their household, so helping her to succeed will make all involved very happy.  My problem is.... that Holly has started to bleed last Saturday, from Wednesday they have brought Max over to my place to reaquaint them, for a few hours each night but....... he licks her rear then her face then wanders off.  From what I've been told, previously she has ripped into him every previous attempt at mating.  At my house the owners say she is incredibly relaxed and calm, which sounds promising.  Her discharge was quite obvious on the first day and less as the week went by, it seemed to get paler by Friday, but I couldnt see any trace of fluid this morning.  We have tried securing her so he could "have his way" with her, she was fine, but he seem not sure what to do or where to start.  He licks her rear but makes no attempt to mount.  She tolerates with no snapping, but when he licks her mouth and tries to extract her teeth almost... she will growl and bark.  During play I have noticed she is dominant.  Any suggestions how we can get him to the next stage, I thought our problem will be her unwillingness, but he doesnt seem "excited".  I hope I don;t sound too naive, but they aren't my dogs, but are in my yard, and a litter would make all involved happy, and having spent times with the nature of both dogs, knowing their offspring are sought after and they have good scores and are registered, I think its not a bad thing, but no one seems to have told "Max".  Thankyou in advance for any advice/suggestions.  Sorry this is so long winded.  Deb

she may not be ready you could try having a smear test at the vets but sometimes by the time you get the results back she is past the date of mating try standing back and seeing what happens see if she stands for him and see if he is interested then.

Sometimes they need a little time males can sometimes circle the female for up to an hour before they even try to mount.
If that does not work and you are positive she is ready try holding her still and guide him to her rear end and see if he will mount her then.

Here is it Saturday evening, and Monday is a Public Holiday, so the local Vet won't be open til Tuesday, and if a test takes a few days for results, I gather it will probably be well and truly over.  Holly is the sort of dog who is always moving, she circles you constantly, but is quite happy to sit or lay down, but as soon as you move so does she, so if you get her to sit or stand still and Max moves, she starts moving around too.  He seems more interested in her mouth or whats in her mouth (eg a toy, or maybe nothing) than whats happening at the back end, apart from a few cursory licks.  The owner has tried spinning her tail-end in his general direction, but this results in a game of pushing and shoving and he is still trying to lick her mouth while she is being push to face the other way.  Not very productive.  The owner tried putting him on her, but he sort of jumps over her.  If she stands and he licks her rear end, he then will just come around to her mouth or just walk off altogether and sometimes she will turn towards him (but not aggressively) and he makes no attempt to follow the rear end.  Do they do "doggy aphrodisiac"?  Sorry more naivety here, but I knew a dog years ago, and his bit were always "sticking out", but Max is showing no sign of that, does that make a difference?  Thanx Again

what state are you in and whats the public holiday i live in aus to and know nuthing about public holiday on monday

I'm in South Australia, and I actually had to go check which Public Holiday it was... it is Adelaide Cup Day.  I also have a question for you, I have read a lot of people mention the Premate test or something like that, can we get it here in Australia? If so, how much for?  Thanx Deb

its called a smear test here. As i said before by the time you get the results it can be to late. Does the breeder time her  season what date was she due in season and what date did you notice her season.

You know what will happen you will turn your back for a few minutes and when you return they will be mating or stuck. Who will be seeing the girl through the possible whelp you or the owner ?

im in NSW i got a little worried when you said it was a public holiday because i have to take a dead puppy for a necropsy on monday.

every vet charges different so even if i knew i couldnt tell you ive never used them because i count the days of the next season and know when any of the girls ive mated are close or ready. Countiung the months/days is very reliable and there is no waiting for test results

It's possible that, because he's grown up with her and she's had years of bossing him, he simply won't 'do the deed' with her. He sounds a very subordinate dog - the mouth-licking is an appeasement gesture to a higher-ranking individual. Perhaps if he was kept away from her and was only brought in once a day you might have more luck. However it might take longer than that to improve his status - you may have to keep them apart till next season - but by then she'll nearly be too old for a first litter.

By the way, has Max ever been used successfully?

As far as I know, he hasn't been, I can check with the owners tomorrow.  From what I gather, these 2 dogs have spent their life together competing, not only in sport, but for attention, so I get the feeling she has had enough of him for the rest of year, so during the important bit, its just another day to her of sticking up for herself.  Watching them now, she is lying down and he is sitting next to her, I wonder if he's even allowed to lay down, if you know what I mean.  And when you toss a toy she will almost always outrun him, but if he gets it, he doesn't have it for long because she confiscates it.  So I suppose he might be behaving like a younger sibling, but can this be corrected, can he be "taught" what to do?  Thanx yet again

not in the amount of time that you have left im thinking she isnt ready
my girl is very dominant and when at the studs will even sit ontop of the male when he lies down in the spot she has chosen but i didnt have a prob with her mating.

Keep trying when it comes down to it if they arnt going to mate they wont all you can do is keep trying.

This must sound dense, but what do you mean by Keep Trying, do you mean, keep bringing him over for visits by that?  Is there anything more we can do, moodlighting, soft music, fragrance, Oysters?

It's often very difficult to mate maiden bitch and dog together, especially at the ages these dogs are, and even more so if the handlers are inexperienced too.

What club does the owner of these dogs belong to?  There must be someone around who is knowledgable in these matters?

lol

just keep bringing him over maybe even keeping him for a night or two let him really relax in your home if the male is nervous or less confident then normal then it will never happen

I think the club they are associated with is something to do with the fact they are Labradors and Gundogs.  And they have been noticed at competitions or trials as being very good quality.  As far as I know they haven't been involved the competitions for a while, but Max is still taken hunting.  I remember them mentioning some competitions where the dogs have to retrieve something, sometimes they retrieve without actually seeing where it lands, but given some small indicator by owner. 
It is other breeders who were going to help in the mating and whelping process in lieu of a puppy, but after several unsuccessful years, (they found she bled for a very short time, and was completely unpredictable), and went through numerous vet tests/ultrasounds, but the whole thing became costly and frustrating.  Holly was meant to go in season in February, so she is later than usual, which I suppose may be due to her coming here in January which may have affected the whole process by having her uprooted, but she seems very happy, and that is why they thought the "impossible" might become possible and it seemed like a nice solution all round.  Max is doing a sleep over tonight.  So we shall see I suppose.
If Holly were to fall pregnant, then she would stay here until towards the end of her pregnancy when I imagine the owners would take her for the last part as they have successful breeders who can see them through the most important bit. 

Its only 8 days, give her chance! Seems like everyone has put to much presure on this bitch from the first day of her season, and maybe every season. Why didn't they try her with an equally good but proven stud dog when she was younger, with an experienced stud dog handler. And if he's so good, found a good but experienced quiet helpful bitch to start him on his way. Then they may have managed a litter together. If they really want a litter from her maybe this would have been a good time to take her out to a stud, provided there really is no chance he's covered her.

I wouldnt want to take a bitch at a late stage in her pregnancy and put her into a different enviroment. very unsettling.

Oh okay, fair enough, as I mentioned at the start, its all a bit unusual, I'm fairly sure it will all be in vain, but I thought I'd try and find out as much as I could in case something comes of it.  I have known these people through my sons friendships at school.  I knew they had 2 black labs and it had been mentioned in passing that they were keen to breed from then and I knew they had in previous years got all excited only to be disappointed.  I think it was a case of a few times, thinking he'll do it, and then he hadn't and it was too late, then maybe thinking different people with different techniques will bring home results.  I've sort of come in at the end of this, and they had pretty much given up.  I'd never really questioned them that deeply, it was just the burglary attempt that has brought all this around.  They have helped me feel safe in my own home again and I am attempting to help them out if I can, but I know they won't hold it against me if its unsuccessful, but will be thrilled if it all works out.  This has all just come up recently, so the fact that it may not prove successful, has probably been the reason for no real thought as to where she will forefill her pregnancy.  As I haven't research it (its kind of a different chapter), I image they have their thoughts on it, but it all seems a bit like "counting your chickens" to me at this stage.  I doubt poor Max is going to do the deed after all this time, and I will ask to the owners tomorrow their opinion of a different stud.  Thanx for your input. Deb.  PS lots of Labrador websites I looked at before I found this site said she'll "be ready" between day 7 and day 14, but after reading this site I see a lot at day 17 to 20, but I suppose that all depends on the breed they are discussing.  Its all new to me (and quite interesting), and I'm trying to keep an open mind.  Thanx again

Have you a person experienced in managing matings with you? It's important to avoid injury to one or both dogs (especially during the tie) that someone's in charge. Have the original owners ever bred a litter before?

The correct day for mating varies not only from bitch to bitch, but from season to season in the same bitch. My last bitch had her first litter conceived after a mating on day 13, and her second litter from matings on days 18 and 20 - she simply wasn't ready earlier.

Also, has Max ever been scolded for mounting? If so his owners may inadvertently have trained him never to do it ...

I know that in my own breed in Australia where gene pool is limited and often inexpereinced pairs are to be mated that AI is chosen to overcome the difficulties, otherwise in more numerous breeds the best option is to use a proven stud dog on a maiden bitch, and allow an inexpereinced male to mate a placid eager experienced matron.

and allow an inexpereinced male to mate a placid eager experienced matron.

I know that you shouldn't transfer canine emotions to humans but .............. :D

My late Tula was one of those and taught two boys what was what, though missed to one.

I think the scolding part is what is going to be the deciding factor, cos they live and work together I think he would have been told off, and that is where it all ends.  Thanx for all the information, it was probably always going to be a "what if" experience, but I felt I had to try.  She is the most lovely dog I've ever had.  I was hoping everyone involved might end up with a very satisfactory result, but the owners have seen how happy she is, so I'm pretty sure she can stay.  I thought "randy male dogs" stuck it to everyone and everything (see naive shining through).  I suppose it shows that they are dogs that do what they are told, even if it doesn't count for 5 or so days of the year.  Thankyou for all the information and suggestions.  I have only ever owned lapdogs (balls of fluff) and a Labrador is a bit of a nice eye opener.  The owners have a stud dog they were considering, but I think there is going to be a delay in getting hold of his owner during this long weekend, which may then run outside of her season.  While I have waited for responses, I have browsed through many helpful postings.  Thanx again