I really need some help if not then I will seriously need to think of re-homing a Black Lab Puppy!!

Molly is 6 months old and has a tendancy to run away and escape out of the garden.  We have constructed a fence and made it pretty much dog safe BUT she still, given the oppourtunity, will escape with her 7 month old puppy mate.  We have had this problem for quite a while now and its getting to the stage where she is casuing big arguments between my Husband and I.  When we walk them together, Molly is kept on a long lead and Lottie (7mths) is left off the lead. This is because everytime they were off the leads together, Molly would run off and Lottie would follow and we could lose them for upto 1 hour. Lottie will come back but Molly doesn't and it doesn't matter how much you say 'no' tell her off or call her to come back she completly ignores us.  T

They once both disappered for 4 hours and its very worring for me as I don't know where she is.  We live in the middle of the countryside and Molly, given the chance will simply run off.  In the mornings I will walk her separately and she is fine off the lead and will come back when called (if i have chicken) but the worry is always there that she will run off again.  I have taken on advice and I don't scold her when she comes back but where do I draw the line. She needs to learn that what she has done is bad.  Molly is extremly willful and not like her sister Lottie. She seems such an intelligent dog, too intelligent perhaps and I have really struggled to get her to listen to me and not just do her own thing.  Lottie is the complete opposite and will listen to me and do as she is told but when Molly runs off, she runs off.

We have tried going back to basics with her, using chicken as a treat, constant praising when she is good and even separate training but it just doesn't seem to be working there is just too much other stuff then listening to us.

Please, please help!!

I think the problem lies in having two puppies together ;)

How firstly does she escape ? You say you have made it 'pretty' much dog safe then that is not totally dog safe :)

You will need to excercise and train on a one to one basis until she is fully trained and understands you are the one she answers to and not her sister because that is why she is ignoring you when they are out together :)

She is also going through the teenage rebellious stage and may also be coming upto her first season which may also make matters more difficult.

I would say you have lots of hard work to do over the next few months to turn her around.

If you do feel however that this may be too much for you to take on then rehoming could be an option as if you cannot control her she will either be on a lead all the time which is not ideal for a Lab or you risk her running off and injuring herself even fatally. :(

If you do consider the rehoming route (which should be a last resort ;) ) then do PM me as I work for Lab rescue and will be able to help getting her rehomed :)

Thank you. Re-homimg really is the last option, she is a smashing little dog. We have a 6ft fence on one side of the house and we have used 5ft wire fencing on the other to prevent them from running away...but she pulls at the fence and manages to wriggle underneath it! Its amazing how clever she is and she outwits us every time.

I'm going to try and walk them individualy and hope I will get through to her, I don't like keeping her on her lead but its getting to that stage now. Even when I train her on her own, she doens't really listen to me. I really have to make this work!

>we have used 5ft wire fencing on the other to prevent them from running away...but she pulls at the fence and manages to wriggle underneath it! Its amazing how clever she is and she outwits us every time.

Have you tried pinning the bottom of the wire fence down - I've done something similar in the past using tent pegs.

You may have to do what others have done in the past and bury the bottom of the fencing several inches below the surface. That, and a length of netting leaning inwards at the top of the fence, often does the trick.

Definitely exercise them separately for several weeks at least to get their attention more fixed on you rather than each other.

Follow the above, but before going to the Breed Rescue if your dogs breeder is a good one then you should go back to them first, although I must say I would not allow anyone to have two young gundogs at the same time! 

The frustrating thing is the fence is buried in about 3 inches into the ground, she digs and then wriggles under it. I'm going to try some repellant spray to keep her away from the fence all together...

I would advise burying the fencing at least a foot down and/or use concrete gravel boards along the bottom.

I wouldn't hold out much hope for that, I'm afraid. :( Could you set the bottom of the fence into concrete?

I will do what ever it takes!

to be honest its stopping her running away on walks that concerns me more...any suggestions??

Re the running away on the walks Have you tried taking her to training school on her own and not with the other dog? She needs to mix with other breeds at the training school and learn the re-call You will have to take her out then each day to continue with the re-call You  do not have to let her off the lead for this as all you would need is a very long training lead. This means that although she has more space to run on this long lead you are still in control at the end of the lead.
When she has gone a little bit further you need to do the re-call and if she immediately comes back to you then give her a treat. If she does not come to the re-call on her own, then pull the lead in a little at a time and when she is back with you give the sit command and if she does that then give the treat.
It takes time but you will get there in the end, it just has to be done each day.
Agree about the fencing though I think you will need to dig down at least 3ft and then set the fence in concrete that way she can not get under it. Hope this helps/

That should improve when you spend more one-to-one time with her and build up the bond between you. I'd also only let her into the garden accompanied by you - then you can take the other dog out singly as well. Until the garden's 100% secure I wouldn't let them out unattended.

Two seperate issues I think. 
Both need walking and training to recall seperately - very time consuming which is why most breeders won't home two young pups together. 
And then the garden needs properly dog proofing.  If yours can get out, others can get in when she's in season.

I was going to say that but if the breeder has homed both these pups together I would assume they are not reputable enough if they do not understand the issues of two young pups together ;)

It wasn't the breeders fault, I wanted two puppies, naive I know as I thought I could deal with them both. They are lovely girls and I know now that maybe it was a bit too much to take on HOWEVER, I have made my bed so I will lie in it and get this cracked....the reward will be enough!:rolleyes:

Actually it is the breeder fault :)  As you say you were naive but nobody naive about dogs has any business breeding them so she cannot use that excuse and should not have let you have two.

Hi

It is the breeders fault as you are finding how difficult it is to cope with two puppies and it is good that you are trying to get help ;) They should never have sold you two dogs even if you did plead with them :)

There are many dogs that end up abandoned due to the owners realising what a big problem it can be ! :)

There are only the very experienced people that would take on having two at the same time and even seasoned experienced breeders will rarely consider keeping two out of a litter unless it was a very good reason as they know what time and commitment it will take to end up with two well trained dogs ! :)

It is normal to have at least 18 months gap between two dogs :)

It is the breeders fault as you are finding how difficult it is to cope with two puppies and it is good that you are trying to get help ;-) They should never have sold you two dogs even if you did plead with them

Might say a bit about the breeder as well that they had 2 litters with just a month in between them....... :rolleyes:

I think what people are saying is any responsible breeder would not allow someone to have two pups together whatever the person wanted.
You have a positive attitude and you obvisously want to do the best for your dogs. So good on you.

Puppies are different ages so unlikely from the same litter or breeder

I would hate to see you rehome a dog that you really seem to like just because she wont recall.  Not that failure to recall isnt very annoying, because it is.  The thing you have to realize is that many dogs never develop a 100% reliable recall.

You might look for a book/cd combination entitled Really Reliable Recall.  I think you will find the method outlined in that very helpful.

Good luck.

Thank you, I will look for it...Thank you all for your help so far..It really is apprciated x

I have had 2 puppies together and seperate walks and training is essential. I also took mine to training classes seperately and together- it helped them learn to focus on me and helped them socialise with other dogs. I was lucky in the fact i was home all day everyday and could devote lots of time to training. I have to say though - NEVER AGAIN!! ;)
Clicker training has worked well with mine so maybe something you could try. I personally find recall the hardest thing to train my dogs - it takes months for them to become reliable. Even then it's only 99% as there will always be a siutuation when your dog decides it doesnt want to come back straight away.

Have you thought about whistle training???????

Obviously clicker training is great in the house or on lead walks but as it seems to be arecall problem a clicker is not going to travel far enough sound wise to generate a reaction.

A whistle is also a powerful tool for training emergency stops - one of the most important things to train your dog.

The other thing worth considering is how you get dogs back on the lead - it's good to recall a few times, reward and send away before the final recall, otherwise everytime you recall your dog knows its end of playtime - and beng that running around is the most natural thing for your dog to do, going back on the lead is something they will obviously choose to avoid.

Whatever you do, DO NOT tell the dog off when it does return - although it might be inconvenient, frustrating etc.. dogs like to run and being on a lead will not be any dogs first choice of attire.
Another thing to do is before releasing the lead, give chicken as a reminder that you have it, then recall a couple of times BEFORE they've run too far and again reward them.
They need to know that you have something of higher value if they come back to you.

Good luck

Poppysmum, I'm not sure you understand what is meant by clicker training - you don't train the dog to come to the sound of the clicker, the 'click' is used as a marker to the dog to indicate what they are doing at that precise minute is a 'good thing' and will bring a reward.

However, I'd agree that a whistle, used frequently around the house to summon the dog for a high value reward may well help and is worth considering.

I am totally aware what a clicker is and what it is used for, I use one myself - but in this instance a clicker would be useless for recall as dog not returning in first place.

Apologies if I never explained myself very well.....
and yes, whistle training is a very good idea (see I'm not totally crackers yet)
In the same way the dog associates a click with a reward, 3 pips of the whistle can be taught to mean the same.

I don't think a clicker would be useless at all - but it would have to be used properly, in stages, building up the distractions slowly, where as your suggestion of a whistle, if introduced properly, would provide a new signal, which the dog hadn't learnt to ignore already.  It was your reference to the clicker not being heard which confused me - as you wouldn't use the clicker until the dog had completed the move, by which time it should well be close enough to hear the clicker.

In this case a clicker would be useless for recall if the dog isn't coming back - it would be useful to reinforce a good recall once the dog came back but my understanding is that this person is having difficulties getting to dog to come to them - that is why a whistle would be good as the sound travels further.

(my dog will actually recall at a click as she now associates the click with a treat: this is good for house training a pup as you only have seconds to reward so as soon as she wee's she gets a click, runs over to me for the treat - from this she will now recall at a click if close enough to hear it but I appreciate not all dogs will do this)

Not all dogs will respond to a whistle, as some wont respond to a clicker, alot depends on the dog, not all dogs are food orientated so just using treats alone will not work for every dog.

I totally agree with an earlier post about no dog having 100% recall 100% of the time, however good the training is there is always the possibility of the dog being distracted by a scent, another animal etc.. no matter how hard we work at training a dog will always have instinct - thats what makes them dogs and thats why we love them

I've not had time to read all the replies carefully but get the gist of it.  I think for a 6 month pup to run off into the sunset is quite normal... it is what they do. 

I've two pups with a two months age gap. My second pup is from a diffrerent breeder as I gather ideally litermates as not a good idea. Both are from very responsible breeders and being granted permission to be mum to our youngest pup  is soooo  appreciated   because I know the breeder is very careful about who can take each pup.

It is harder to start with but if you put the time in when they are young you get there just asbyou do with any dog. You do need to do seperate walks and one to one training.  I suspect your older pup isn't quite as well behaved in the recall as you think because she shold come back even if theoher pup isn't co-opeating. You do need to get thst recall tightenred up with both pups.

Even now I do not walk mine off lead. This gives them too much freedom and if they get that then they will be hard to retrain. So I walk them on a lead and find a safe clear area to train or play in. Off lead play is for a short time. Then rewareded and then lead walk. You can make the walking on a lead fun and not a punishment.  I think preventing bad habbits is the best way forward with dogs...

...so the escaping must stop or it will end in disaster. I never leave mine out unattended anyway. If you must do that maybe you can secure a smaller area to make to safe.  Other then that you need to work on making the fencing more secure.

I don't see a problem in having two pups so close in age..providing you treat each one as though it is the only pup you have and give each the time and quality of training any young pup needs.

I ike to think by 2 or 3 I will have the behaviour in my dogs to the level I can enjoy and then give more freedom. The more work I put in now the more pleasure I gain fromtheir company both now and as they mature.