Dog Borstal BBC3 right now 9 pm Monday -I don't think this is going to be good.......

I don't think I can bear to watch this

ooooh dear...turned over already...

Now I can cope with this.  These guys are no nonsense and I like that approach.  They preach consistency and reward and treating animals like animals and not children

Personally, I feel it's good to see the improvement these dogs have made.  They apply the consistency to the owners as well as the dogs, not that they can all handle it - but that's indicative of why their dogs are out of control.

just finished watching it and thought i like there no nonsense approach, will be watching again next week for anyone that might of missed it i think it is reapeted at midnight you could tape it
carol

I like the approach - but taking them away from home and into kennels?

You wouldn't have got the same response using a 9 - 5 approach in their own homes.  It also goes to prove that dogs don't need to sleep on their owners beds to be happy and that staying in a kennel can be a positive experience - none of those dogs seemed particularly distressed by their experience.

The new environment helped the owners focus I feel and apply themselves to helping their animals overcome the problems they had caused in the first place.

Enjoyed that, found it most helpful, or at least might have done had 'Jack' not barked all the while!!!
plainly will have to follow some of the advocated methods..
I did appreciate at the end they said not to use the techniques with out gaining professional advice or something similar.

Hiya all,

Just thought I'd add my two quids worth ! I now Mic and have trained with him a fair bit - he is exactly the same in real life as on the telly! He's fair but he won't take any c**p from people. He's trained everything from Westie's to GSD/Malinois for security service work. He really DOES know his stuff. I think the program was good, although it obviously couldn't show all the steps that the dogs/owners made, it was good to hear nutrition coming into the behaviour equation.  I look forward to next week :)

Ali :)

I watched this and loved it,I also liked that not once did we hear the word castrate,kind of refreshing,will definitely watch next week,
Wendy

Hi,

I didn't like it - it seemed like one training method suited all problems, shake a bottle of stones at it, which was just scaring the Weim and the little staffy cross, and while it seemed to work I think it may only have been temporarily suppressing behaviours rather than actually training them.  The Weim seemed very smart and I didn't get the impression it would have been hard to train it in diifferent manner, with out scaring it, I think if these people who weren't very experienced dog owners went away and started using it inappropriately the dog could maybe start associating the people with scary things and just end up back where they started or with a different set of problems.

Also Flake the little Jack Russel, did appear to stop yanking with it's mouth on the lead, however while the owner was told to use the heel command when setting off he wasn't actually showing the dog how to heel as by the end of it he was still just holding it into heel by force as the dog was walking on it's hind legs part of the time rather than the dog actually understanding what was required of it.  I did like that they shwoed the guy how smart his little dog was and that giving it something to do like the search made the little dog quite happy.  Having said I didn't really like it I will watch it next week, can't help myself.  :-)

Karen

I agree Karen. That poor Weimaraner, he was just being a big puppy. He's offered a toy, then has a bottle of pebbles shook at him and he's told no, then again and again, then after a while he's offered the toy and is expected to TAKE it???

"That poor Weimaraner, he was just being a big puppy. He's offered a toy, then has a bottle of pebbles shook at him and he's told no, then again and again, then after a while he's offered the toy and is expected to TAKE it???"

The point of that exercise was that the dog learnt to leave things on command.  They used the toy as it was an extremely appealing thing to the dog, the pebbles as it was the only thing it would react to and the command was to be used for everything the owners wanted it to 'leave'   Yes the Weim was being a normal 10 month old puppy pushing its luck, but it was getting totally overzellous with the old mouthing etc.

It was very interesting to see 3 different trainers with 3 totally different personalities and how those personalities don't always gell well with the trainee (poor Mr Sensitive JRT Owner ending up with the Ex Army & Police Dog Trainer - oops!).  They all used reward based training - the rewards were fussing the dog when it did well and playing with it :)  Sound aversion was used for 2 of the dogs (Weim & Staff) as it was what they responded to.  It wasn't used to scare the dogs merely distract them from what it was they were 'wrongly' doing and encourage them to not do it again - hence being an 'unpleasant' sound.  Clicker training works for some dogs, sound aversion works for others, treats work for others, toys work for others etc etc - all dogs are different.  I'm sure we'll see in the weeks to come that the trainers use a variety of different methods each geared to the individual dogs and owners :)

Don't forget that the trainers only had 1 week to train the owners and dogs and that it was all crammed into one 55 minute long programme.  Of course there will have been a heck of a lot of the 'unseen' footage which probably would have been where all the training happened but that wouldn't have made for 'good television' would it ;)

The point of that exercise was that the dog learnt to leave things on command.  They used the toy as it was an extremely appealing thing to the dog, the pebbles as it was the only thing it would react to and the command was to be used for everything the owners wanted it to 'leave'   Yes the Weim was being a normal 10 month old puppy pushing its luck, but it was getting totally overzellous with the old mouthing etc.

Yeah, got the point of the exercise - just don't think it was appropraiate to use on 10 month old puppy of a sensitive breed.  Or on a fear aggressive dog.  How do you know it was the only thing those dogs would react to? They didn't show us them trying other methods such as clicker training.  Yes if they wanted to get results as quickly as possible,that may have been the way to go, but I don't think getting a reaction as quickly as possible results in the dog learning or understanding.   I don't know form what we saw of the Staffy cross but the Weim was a very smart boy that would have learnt from positive training methods I'm sure. 

If the sound aversion wasn't used to scare the dogs only to distract them then the trainers weren't doing what they were supposed to because both the staffy and the Weim were scared - their body language made that very clear.

Karen

"If the sound aversion wasn't used to scare the dogs only to distract them then the trainers weren't doing what they were supposed to because both the staffy and the Weim were scared - their body language made that very clear."

Momentarily they showed some fear yes, but it isn't a method designed for the dog to be scared forever more.  Its to teach them that if they leave the thing alone then they won't hear the 'nasty' noise i.e. actions and consequences.  Some actions have negative consequences and most have positive so the dog learns to do the positive cos its better/more fun/gets attention from owners etc

The point of that exercise was that the dog learnt to leave things on command.  They used the toy as it was an extremely appealing thing to the dog, the pebbles as it was the only thing it would react to and the command was to be used for everything the owners wanted it to 'leave' cool

There are better ways to do it for sure.I too have a 10 months old dog that will do similar things given half a chance, but no way have I used this method on him, but he's still learnt to leave on command. He's clicker trained. Could you just explain just HOW you think this would work for the Staffy when it encounters a cat in its own back garden again?

"Could you just explain just HOW you think this would work for the Staffy when it encounters a cat in its own back garden again?"

I didn't say it would!  At the end of the day the owners gained some control over their dogs with this method so it quite obviously worked.  I didn't state it was the "best method to use" merely that it was what the trainers deemed best for them particular dogs (very briefly discussed somewhere near the start of the programme as far as I can remember) and what worked, as we all saw from the programme, for the 'challenges' presented to the dogs and owners at Dog Bostal

They all used reward based training - the rewards were fussing the dog when it did well and playing with it :-)

What was used was not really reward based training, it was reward and punishment. Not the same thing at all in my book.

Yes all dogs are different :) However, it would have been so so easy to teach the Weim to Leave with clicker training. No need for rattle cans. I am really disappointed that such a method was used. I am on a training forum and we agreed the dogs could  have been taught to be better behaved in a week with more positive methods than were shown.

I've plenty more to say but have no time... :D

Lindsay
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Yes, with mine sound aversion wouldn't work, but water aversion does :D (spray bottle st to jet and sprayed in their faces).

i agree with karen. the poor staffy was just shouted no at it and then had a bottle of pebbles nearly hit it in the face whilst making a loud noise. the poor weim was absolutely petrified and very confused by the end of it. he was very clever and would have learned just as well by using a clicker and treats. i liked the bit about the searching with the terrier but saw no point in making the owner do press ups it just made him hate being with teh trainer.
i think it will make people do the wrong things with their dogs - ie shaking a bottle solves everything. having a fear aggressive dog myself i know that shaking a bottle at her would make her stop the behaivour but it would make her even more scared of dogs and probably cause another problem to occur later.
will still be watching next week tho just so i can complain about it or see if it gets better - another staffy and weim next week not sure if that is giving a great name to the weim breed and making the staffy's reputation even worse.

I now Mic and have trained with him a fair bit - he is exactly the same in real life as on the telly! He's fair but he won't take any c**p from people. He's trained everything from Westie's to GSD/Malinois for security service work. He really DOES know his stuff.

I sincerely hope he doesn't train Malinois with pebbles in a bottle as that approach for this breed could be absolutely disastrous. :rolleyes:

Don't worry, He doesn't :)

Ali :)

All of this sounds really interesting guys, but unfortunately I'm not from UK, so I never watched the program...... what is it really about (short version ;) )?

Have a look here...

http://tickers.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/tv/dogborstal/index.shtml

I'm still undecided on it.

I didn't like many of the methods - a good behaviourist could have stopped the Weim using a clicker and rewards, teaching Off etc.

The Staffie was still dog aggressive and would still kill a cat in the garden, it was just too terrified to react whilst on the lead. Note that the initial problems with cats and dog being attacked were off lead.

The Jrt was gorgeous, just being a typical terrier. She was still pulling at the end although I didn't see her grabbing at the lead so much. I nearly fell over backwards when Mic said "the dog is not going towards the owner because she sees me as the leader". That wasn't right, it was because she knew if she went to her owner she'd get pulled on the  lead.

Have to add as well, the trained attack dog did not Out - the handler had to pull it away. So it wasn't that well trained I didn't think.

It was certainly entertaining - however, now watch out for everyone thinking a shake bottle is the answer to all their problems :(

Lindsay
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I thought that was curious the dog didn't 'out' as well, and had to be physically removed.

I liked the emphasis on playing with your dog as a reward, seeing the JRT doing the searching, and the importance of background knowledge on dogs.
However, can't see that method for training the JRT to heel ever working. I thought the Staffie should have been told to have a muzzle on when let out in the garden, and not let off the lead when walking considering it had already killed to cats And for the Weimeraner, I disagreed that it's behaviour was due to it deciding to be the pack leader, and more because when its owner put a jumper on their arms were waving all about and that to the Weim looked like something great to play with!
Oh, and why teach the JRT with praise and toys, but her owner with the punishment of push-ups and intimidation? Surely the trainer should realise we all learn better if we are actually enjoying ourselves!

Of course, I'll still watch it again next time :)

I am waiting to get on a training course with Mic Martin. I went to see him work with dogs a few weeks ago and he was fantastic so I signed myself and breeze up for the next course. I like his no nonsense approach and thought he really held his tounge last night with the owner of the Jack Russell.

I loved the programme and Sky + is set to record it every week.

I didn't like the look of the programme.  Watched approximately 5 minutes and turned over.  I accept that there are several different thoughts on how to train but this definitely wasn't the way I would go about it. :-(

>definitely wasn't the way I would go about it<

whaaaaaat Char? with your new health regime thought you'd love the thought of dropping by Glazby and giving 10 press ups!! ;) :P ;)

those of you that have experience of Mic.. was the subtle (;) ) branding everywhere of big K9 letters to do with the show or Mic's business?

Did laugh at his manual and flakes owners comments on the first 6 pages being "Ooooooh *mock surprise* another picture of Mic" lol.
(and the "go F**** yourself" comment programme producer mustve been rubbing his hands with glee)

Ha Ha :D  Whats a push-up again??  ;-)  I can imagine attempting push-ups infront of Glaz, I'd be having my face washed at every move!!  :D

The only work out I know is that of the "raise the glass of wine to the lips, gulp and down"  repeat as many times as you can before falling over!!  :D  :D

>Whats a push-up again??<

think its this!
:D ;)

lol :D  If they did them in my size I might know a bit more about them!!  You'd think that bigger boosomed ladies would need more of a "push up" (up being the operative word here) than smaller sized!!  ;-)

I think thats called...scaffolding!!! ;) :P

Or "Over The Shoulder Boulder Holders"  ;-)  ;-)

I prefer the Bassett's version! ;) :D

I found it more or less on a par with old Miss Whiplash on the other channel.  I too was heartened when Action Man mentioned nutrition but it never came up again.  There never seems any intention of altering the owners' perspective on their dogs (apart from 's/he's not a bad dog, you're bad owners') but where's the exploration of the dog's view of life, the intricacies of the relationships between dogs and humans, the background to the attitudes that got these people and dogs in this situation in the first place?

All we actually got was a slightly extended version of 'IMOTD' with everyone going home 'happy'.  I found it very unconvincing and would still have reservations about the Wiem (Owner:'I'm pack leader now!') and the Staffy. Also if gay couple want a (spoilt) child-substitute that's what they want and they'll just have to take the consequences.   

Sorry, very disappointed here in Brum

every one has different methods of teaching, and no one will every agree on every single teaching method there is for dogs.
some people like one thing others like other things to train there dogs, what i was wondering is there is that many of these programmes at the moment how many people in the country have dogs that are driving them crackers and have never heard of training clubs etc,i know for one thing i would of loved that little jack russle flake, for mini agility and obedience and flyball she would of fitted in lovely with my nutty lot.
carol

what i was wondering is there is that many of these programmes at the moment how many people in the country have dogs that are driving them crackers and have never heard of training clubs etc,

Yes what with all these training programs appearing, isn't it about time we had a series about training CLASSES!!

My friend and her boxer is at the moment using Robert (the weimerers trainer) and she likes him very much, but judging by other posters' replies, stones in bottles are not the way to go for a nervous aggresive dog.

I liked it, the approach was good, i found that Mic hilarious making the gay fella do press ups

i found that Mic hilarious making the gay fella do press ups

I found it absolutely hilarious and the highlight of the show. That trainer had such a problem with that JR owner being gay, but he just wasn't admitting it.

"I've not problem with you being GAY - drop and give me 10... I'm not changing my training methods just becaue you're GAY... that'll be 4 more press ups... I want you to bring out your feminine side and I'm not saying that just because you're GAY - I think you owe me 2 more... just think, when you get to Blackpool you'll be able to strut about with your well trained dog like a REAL MAN... I'm used to being in an all male environment myself - IN THE ARMY"

Methinks he was a little uncomfortable. :D

Robert is  OK and i know several people who have been training with him. Goodness knows what happened in this programme though.

On a different note, Victoria Stillwell was totally fab last night, full marks to her (and in the past I've criticised her methods). She was really good :P

Lindsay
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Agree, it was very good and it was great to see her put the husband in his place telling him his wife and baby had to come first. Loved the way she put him in solitary confinement, LOL.

Yep he seemed to get the message his dogs needed walking ;)

Lindsay
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