Both myself and my father in law are very new to the sport of shooting. We are both looking to train our first dogs and are very confused about which breed to choose, I know this can be a very emotive and personal subject but some advice and tips would be very much appreciated. The vast majority of our shooting will be rough shooting in 600 acres of dense coniferous woodland, pheasant, woodcock and wildfowl (two small flightponds) will be the main quarry. Currently my own thoughts are between an english springer spaniel or a hungarian wirehaired vizsla. Would it be true to say that an english springer may be a little bit to much of a handful for a novice such as myself and as for a hwv is it very difficult to find puppies for sale and what sort of price would you be expected to pay for a puppy (unfortunately money is'nt no object). Any information on theese two breeds or any other breed that you feel may be suitable would be very gratefully recieved thank you in anticipation of your time - Chris

Hello!
Glad to hear that you are going to train your own dog - first step is to join a good gundog club where you live. There may be a branch of the United Retriever Club near you - you could try ringing the fiels trial secretary , Mr. G. Searle (Tel 0181 346 789).

Choice of breed is difficult and as you say, emotive. The Hunt Point Retrieve would appear to be good on the face of it, but can be strong for a first time dog, and can also be quite vocal. (Leigh will probably pick up on this).
Playing with fire - I would suggest that not all Labradors are as easy as they might appear - many rely too much on their handlers, and have turned into 'robots'. You need to find a strain which will work things out for themselves.
Not all spaniels will retrieve properly, although most are passionate hunters, and you do need to be one step ahead of them mentally.

Alright - now comes the totally biassed bit - have you considered a Flatcoat? Most will do the job of an HPR - they're normally outstanding in water, and have a nose second to none. Our litter recorder is Shirley Johnson (Tel 01638 718 231), who will advise on availability of working litters. Do read the breed description on this site, and for the other breeds also.

Whatever you choose, good luck, and have years of fun

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

LOL ..... VOCAL !!! Don't know what you mean Jo ;-)

HPR's don't whine ...... they just barrack the guns if they miss a shot ! LOL

Leigh

Welcome to the Forum Chris  :-)

The type of shooting that you are talking about and the ground available to you sounds prime HPR territory ! But having said that, the HPR breeds can be heavy going for first time dog owners. I have experience of All HPR breeds except HWV so will leave them to someone who knows them to advise you :-)

I think that you need to decide what you want from your dog ? Are you looking for a breed that is all purpose (eg Hunts, points and retrieves) or are you looking for a dog that will just hunt and retrieve ? The choice is all yours ! As someone who lives and breaths Pointers I can not imagine using ANYthing else but a Pointer for Rough Shooting. The pleasure that a pointer on point gives is immense :-)

There are classes all over the country that will help you train your dog. The GSP Club is one such club and welcomes ALL HPR breeds. So you will get as much help as you require from this source.

As I have already said, HPR's are not the easiest of breeds, but if you pick your bloodline with care and take the trouble to train your dog then you will get many years of pleasure from them.
I am happy to talk to you about the HPR breeds if you care to contact me.
NO I WILL NOT SELL YOU A PUPPY!  But having "done Rescue" for many years , I can offer you an unbiased angle ...lol

Prices start at around £400 +.

The other thing that you can do is check out the breed guides on this site:

http://www.champdogs.co.uk/breeds/gundog

ANY more questions , please ask.

Leigh

Leigh, you make me want to give this shooting a try with your description - probably shoot myself in the foot though 'cos I'm more than a bit dippy! And Jo is right about Vizslas being noisy (my two are right noisy devils) - is being noisy a common trait of other pointer breeds too? My vizslas were £500 each (but they are the smooth coated,non wire variety - wirehaireds, being rarer, might be more expensive maybe?

Hi Mair.
Why don't you give it a try then ? Your dog's will love it ! You don't have to shoot or even shoot over them to do the training Mair :-) And if you have never seen them point, then you have not lived ! lol

LOL...It is dangerous talk to assume that ALL HPR's are vocal, just because you have come across those that are or those that you own are. I know noisy HPR's and I also know a lot that are not noisy. Everyone remembers the noisy ones. ;-)

You have to remember that some of the HPR's were developed over centuries by the Hunters to Give tongue. Some more so than others. But such characteristic's can not be breed out over night. Just because we do not require this trait does not mean that it is not there :-)

I did say that prices start from £400. I also heard that HV now go for £700 *choke* !!

If you are interested in looking into the training that I mentioned let me know and I will get more details to you.

Leigh x

Scarlet pointed almost as soon as we got her, she still points on squirrels and birds in the woods, but it's probably not what a professional would call a point, she's never caught any squirrels or birds yet - makes too much racket on her approach!!!
Ava doesn't really go out much yet because she's still very young, but she'll point on her toys - even points on Scarlet sometimes. I'll have a think about the training, it must be really great to let your dog do what it was originally bred to do. I've been thinking about starting Ava at ringcraft classes, Scarlet does obedience and she's done very well (even though she can be a bit too noisy in classes sometimes! - the instructor tells me off for that though, I think she's just an attention barker - or she likes to see me get told off!!!)
Can spectators just go along to watch the dogs working?
bye for now
Mair

I am glad that you have seen your dogs pointing. There are many different types of point , it doesn't have to be the "Classic" dog stretched forward with front leg in the air :-) You will find that they use slightly different pointing styles for different game. All my lot will hold a back leg up if they are on Fur eg: rabbit (doesn't look as daft as that sounds ...lol). But what you are probably seeing mainly, is your dog "Freeze". This is a very natural "point" where instinct takes over and they just stop dead in their tracks ! Can be quite annoying if you are crossing a road and they "wind" something ..lol
If you would like to see HPR's work, you could attend a training class or find a Gundog Working Test. You would be made welcome to attend any of them. A days shooting might be harder to come by, but you could go on a Field training day, if you wished. I can point you (no pun intended) in the right direction if you like.

Leigh

Scarlet does the "front leg up" point, can't say I've noticed her lift her back leg up, but I'll look out for that one now. She doesn't point as much now as she used to when she was a pup, probably because the instict hasn't been encouraged or bought out in her with training do you think?

Yes, you are right Mair. We encourage our dogs from day one to "hold" a point. It would not take much to get her back into it again though. When you see her start to "freeze", if you speak softly to her and encourage her to do it, she will revert back.You must be gentle and not make ANY sudden movement beside her though. Try to get up beside her and gently stroke her with your finger tips, from her shoulder down to her tail.I have found that it works best to touch their side rather than down the lengh of their back. When you first touch the dog you will feel how tense she is. If you can keep stroking her until you feel her relax. You will find that as she gets used to your touch, the time that she can hold her point will increase. Do not touch her head or neck or she will turn. We watch our dogs all the time so notice even the smallest of indications, and encourage them using our voice. You can stroke a dog with your voice ;-)

I am sure that now you know about "back leg" pointing, you will see her do it ..... probably on a cat ! It is all good fun Mair, so enjoy your dog :-)

Edited at 9.50am. Leigh

Hi Leigh, long time no speak. Been to busy lately but will try and get into chat tonight. Harris points at his furry toys, front leg up first then slowly walks towards it stretching out his back legs as he does it, then grabs it. Fantastic to watch. Did I tell you that Nell caught a pheasant once! She's a bugger for chasing and I think she was just too quick this one time and caught the pheasant in her mouth, don't know who got the biggest fright but she dropped the pheasant and came running towards us looking very pleased with herself ;-) This is something I find amazing to watch and keep saying I'm going to find a field trials somewhere to watch, are they just as good as being out on a shoot?

Speak to you later maybe.

Hi Claire !
Yes, it has been a while hasn't it. Hope you and yours are well :-)

I had to laugh at your description of Harris "on point". He was doing sooooo well, until he started "roading" in on it and then "pegged" it .. LOL. I hope that you are going to be encouraging him to point as well Claire ! After all, what is the point of having a pointing breed if you don't :rolleyes: I am sure you will though ;-)

Glad to hear that you are going to make the effort to go to a field trial. They are supposed to be a representation of a shooting day. But that is about as close as they get. FT's are tests of the dogs natural abilities, but you only get very short runs and can be "out" within seconds of casting your dog off. On a shoot, you have time to settle your dog down and longer to get the best out of them. Having said that, you can see some good dog work at a FT. Don't forget that trials only run during the shooting season. If you contact the Weimar Club, they will send you details of any that they are running. Also keep Spring Pointing Tests in mind, they test on game, but nothing is shot.

Leigh

The Chat Room appears to be no longer used Claire. ANYway, I can not get in there (or Philippa's) anymore.

I own three Hungarian Wire Haired Vizslas all of which work. Take a look at our web site
hwww.leiborschy-gundogs.moonfruit.com
I also own a Bracco Italiano and a German Wirehaired pointer.
E mail me at leiborschy@btinternet.com with any questions you have and I will gladly try to help you. We will be hapy to show you our dogs work, albeit out of season at this time.
CLA Game Fair would be a good place to go to see all the gundog breeds and talk to experts.
Loking foward to hearing from you
Diane

Hi Diane !

Welcome aboard :-)

See you at the CLA. Are you taking Nico ?

Leigh

After all this talk about HPR's and Flatties I really must put the point (pun intended!) for the Labrador. Excels in water and land, is handleable, soft mouthed, brilliant for wildfowling, happy in cover, (O/K, maybe not as happy as a spaniel) although I must admit not many point! Seriously though, almost any of the gundog breeds would do the job you require but you will never get Leigh, Jo and me to agree on which is the best! We are all enthusiastic about our chosen breed, which of course is the way it should be! Please keep us informed of your decision and maybe we can give further assistance in the future.

Regards, John

No, you are right John. It all comes down to the job of work that you would like the dog to do. Once you decide that , then you are halfway there :-)

Leigh

just to add to everyone elses comments, I have trained & worked a whhv over my harris hawk and it was a very wuiet dog, no whining atall. So its not in all of them.

Have you worked any other HPR's with your birds Sam ? How did you find the WHHV? Must say that I like the look of them, but there is to much variation in type for me at the moment, although that won't effect their working ability!
Do you have just Harris ? The bracco makes an excellent bird dog ;-)

Leigh

Hi Leigh, yes, just two harris's. I was looking for a dog to work with them last year & narrowed it down to bracco/spinone/whv, then I had the chance along with a friend (the dogs owner) to train//work a whv and have to say I was impressed. The dog & friend now live in spain where it works superbly with a range of hawks.
I am still considering which breed & it will either be Spinone or Bracco. I prefer Bracco in someways as I feel it will fit in with my hounds better, but as for working ability, I am torn between the 2!
Are there still great long waiting lists for Bracco bitches?

The bracco is really making an impression in falconry circles ! I must admit to being a little biased in that direction. ;-) Having got used to the speed and style of the GSP's, I find the average spinone to be to "indecisive" for my tastes. Bracchi litters are few and far between, and waiting lists are long for both dogs and bitches. I don't think that I will have any problems finding working homes for my planned litter :-) so that is good news.
I must say that I have also been very impressed with the working ability of the GLP's that I have seen. Can't say that they appeal to me looks wise though.

Leigh

I'd love to see dog and hawk working together Sam, It's one aspect of gundog work I've never seen.

John :)

You should have said John ! I will have a word with my mates :-)

Leigh

Its certainly a sight worth seeing, although much more impressive to see pointers working grouse for a hawk, than my rabbit hawking!

Hi Sam, tell me about your HWV. What breeding is it etc, I am really interested , as you probably know there are very few working with birds. That is what our three do and so will our Bracco. Tell me all about the dog.
Diane

No idea!
As I said in y posting, he belonged to a friend but as they had never trained a hawking dog before they offered him to me for a summer to see how he did. He came at 6 months and stayed April to October & left knowing a bit about working with a harris. The owners since moved to Spain & I occassionally hear from them & get pics etc. He apparently is working well with both harris and Gyr. Thats all I know really.

Sam, If you speak to the owners I would be interested to hear the breeding of the dog. When did you train it, that would give me some idea of which litter it would have been?. My lies in that I am keen to know any HWV's that are working with birds. A person in our breed that breeds HWV's almost exclusively for work with birds is interested to know if it is one of his breed ing. He has bred two litters, one that would be about two and a half now and another would be 18 months.
Thanks
Diane

For Leigh - and anybody else, for that matter - have been interested in the GLP ever since they came into the country - not for hawking, which I should love to do, but have never had the contacts - but for beating up partridge on the downs and picking up after.

Have you folk seen a GLP work? What's wrong with their looks, Leigh - thought they looked a bit like a f/c!!! :-)

My flatcoats naturally tend to range rather wide when beating in that situation, though they're super in cover.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Hi Jo.

Prefer my dogs smooth :-) Years of living with Longhaired GSD's cured me of 'Hairy Mutts' ....lol

I have seen quite a few work and I am impressed with their ability and drive. They are very similar to the GSP in a lot of way's but don't seem to be so highly strung.
They range very well and are very workman like. I am surprised that they haven't caught on sooner in this country as they are the most widely used HPR in Europe.
I must admit that I prefer the solid liver GLP's. To me the white and liver looks like a dodgy ESS ! As I have already said , impressive dogs .....shame about the coat. I must admit that I love the look of the Flatcoat but not sure about the working ability :P lol

Leigh

There are a couple of German Imports in the ring at the moment. I would quite happily take the dog (Conan) home tomorrow... coat 'n' all !

Wotchit Twilly - Noof says that his working ability is second to none - which I suppose could be taken to mean second to one person with no dog :-)
And the coat does keep the rain off - GSPs don't have a built in mack. But they do sing beautifully...............

Jo

LOL .... ok ok ok :P

Why do you think I now keep a bracco ;-)

Leigh

There are too many "big" dog responses for me not to put the case for the spaniel! Why not something like a cocker spaniel? They're easy to get hold of, easy to train, nowhere near as expensive as Viszlas, Pointers etc. and there will be plenty of people on the shooting field with similar dogs, who will be more than willing to give you free advice (maybe more advice than you want!). They will flush all day long and retrieve birds, rabbits etc. If you're just starting out, then you will need something biddable and easy to train. I'm in the process of training my first gundog and difficult dogs can be soul destroying, there are times when I feel it would be easier to shoot the TH and start again with a nice labrador!

If you want something a little more distinctive on the field, then why not try one of the "minority" spaniels - field, sussex, clumber, etc.? These dogs are not cheap though, with a decent working clumber puppy now costing £600 upwards!