Hi I have a 2 and a half year old Cocker Spaniel, in my opinion well trained in and out of the house.  When we first got him we had a Lhasa Apso too although sadly she died last year aged 13 and a half, we got Nell from a rescuse centre aged 4.  Dicksy is our first puppy and has now been on his own for a year.  I am looking at going on my annual holiday in July/August and upon return getting another dog.  I do live in a town, but have plenty of rivers nearby where we go walking.  We also have a caravan on the coast which we visit most weekends during the summer.  I am drawn to a labrador why I don't know and I know almost nothing about the breed, anyone give me the names of some books I could look out for or any advice taken on board seriously.  Hip Scores are a mystery to me and would need to look into this (I have done a bit of research via here).  I would want a lab primarily as a pet but would also like to do some obedience work with him as I have always taken Dicksy obedience training although not to a serious level, we go more to socialise! Chocolate, Golden, Black? another dilemma any or much difference between colours?  Anything would be appreciated in helping me make my decision.

Hi On a personal note I prefer the blacks, I had one for 14 1/2 years and she was absolutely perfect.  The yellows are okay too, but as I say on a personal note I am not keen on the Chocolates (always found them to be a bit over the top).  Hip Scores , preferably the parents should be under breed average, (think it is about 19 now).  However, as long as one parents isn't over and the other not too much over it I wouldn't be worried.  Also, they should be eye tested, and I wouldn't accept a puppy if the parents weren't.  After all, with hips bad scores can be environmental or accidental but eyes are eyes!.  I would be looking for a breeder now if you are looking for a puppy in July.
Good luck.

Hi Craigles... well done on your choice of breed  (yes I am biased) ;)   As to colour, that is purely down to personal preference and of course, which colour you would prefer to pick out of your meals   I have yellow and blacks.... 9 of them and another 2 on the way (oops did that just slip out)

Just a little advice though, please do not ask a breeder for a golden there is no such thing....the colour is yellow Goldens are a completely different breed.... Many breeders including myself feel very strongly about this, It does reflect quite badly that a potential puppy owner has not thought enough of the breed to research it before thinking of purchasing, to the extent that a lack of knowledge of the actual colour.  that said....now you do know ;)

Alison....would be a good idea if you did a little research the breed before giving advice.....

>(think it is about 19 now). 

The breed average is 15,

>However, as long as one parents isn't over and the other not too much over it I wouldn't be worried.

Craigles, I would ask you to completely disregard this statement.....any mating between 2 dogs with a score over the average would give me cause for concern

Please do not consider a pup whose hip scores are above the average for the breed, and prefereably also below the median....the lower the score the better.....

The eyes MUST have a current clear eye certificate, this should be done annually....

The elbow score should be 0:0 ..... nothing else is acceptable

the best place to start your search would be the Labrador Retreiver Clubs....their secretaries hold the breeder register

Now if someone would kindly put up a link for the LRC's for Craigles I would be gratefull ...for some reason, cannot get link to work:rolleyes:

Breed clubs listed at the bottom of the Breed Standard.

The elbow score should be 0:0 ..... nothing else is acceptable

Kay just curious is that Labrador club breeding policy? I know in Goldens 1s are bred from and the KC recommendations is to not breed anything above a 1 in any breed.

Hi Marianne, no this is not club policy....in fact, there are still too many Labrador breeders who do not elbow score at all.... But, with OCD and HD so prevelant in the breed it is paramount that we do something to turn this around...at the moment Elbows scores are not published, so we have no way of knowing what the statistics are....There are more than enough excellent dogs in the breed with a 0:0 score that to use anything less than this, in my opinion, would be unacceptable...

Every day, for the last few months, I have been notified of Labs undergoing surgery for Elbow Dysplasia and then again 6 weeks later for the other elbow to be done....some of these pups are only 6 months old....

Even if breeding from a 0:1 score sounds OK....we dont know the inheritance factor....for me it would have to be 0:0

Thanks Kay, that all makes sense. :)

Right kayc.

I note you give very definite advice, however, I would rather have a Lab bred from a slightly higher than average hip score that has good temperament than one that has a fantastic hip score and bad temperament.  I see you failed to mention this! Believe me I has seen many Labs that I wouldn't want anywhere near my Goldens because of the temperament and many growlers from the benches.  I believe that Hips are not always hereditary and therefore as long as it wasn't too much over the average I don't believe there would be a problem.  I don't believe that a poster should be put off completely from looking to see pups from such a breeding.  As I say the temperament should fundamentally be the main concern. 

I agreed that temperant is paramount....but disagree with you just the same....  breeding from any dog with a poor temperament  should be avoided at all costs....regardless of any health checks....personally is a dog was 0:0 hips and elbows it should still not be bred from...

Hips may not always be hereditary, but where do you draw the line at actually knowing whether it is completely environmental, or hereditary faults exacerbated by environmental factors....

You have no way of knowing, so why use the dogs for breeding with .... there were overt 45000 Labradors registered last year, many with poor temperament and excellent BVA score....sorry, but wouldnt touch them with a barge pole (personally)...and if I wouldnt....then no way can I advocate that other people do....

>I would rather have a Lab bred from a slightly higher than average hip score that has good temperament
>than one that has a fantastic hip score and bad temperament

I would only have a Labrador bred from a lower than average hip score that has a good temperament....again....nothing else is acceptable....

Personally I feel, advocating a higher than average hipscore is irresponsible.....

But what I do take exception to is someone calling me irresponsible.............!

Did I call you irresponsible?   I said that advocating higher than average hips scores was irresponsible....

I totally agree with you Kay :)

You would go for a Lab whose parents had both good hip scores and good temperaments ;)

Why would you go for a Lab whose parents have good temperaments but higher than average hip scores When there are over 45000 Labs bred in this country every year why make that choice ?

Just to add and stand proud with my chocolate  She is a delight, very calm and loving and only 6 months old!  Be it black, yellow or chocolate, theyre all different just like we are.  Generally the black ones are the easiest to train, the yellows make the best hunters and the chocs are the most boisterous.  But in saying that my choc is calm.  As for hip scores her parents were 7:7 which is pretty good, i think its marked out if 53/53, the lower the better.  You have to balance the hip scores and the temprement out as low hip scores does not mean no hip dysplasia just lessons the chances.  Also good care ie not too much exersice when young helps.....read up first them make YOUR choice.  Good luck x

I too agree with everything that Kayc has said........ but also from the eye certificate aspect, with the DNA tests now available, would it not be advisable to only breed from parents which have had this done too? After all, the eye certificates as they stand can only guarantee that the parents are only unaffected at that time, not what they may develop at a later stage in their life, and although they may not turn out to have affected eyes, 2 carriers of the recessive gene can in fact produce a 25% risk of affected puppies in 1 litter.

Oh Denise, I wish it were such a perfect world, and I agree it is certainly the way forward....but while we are still trying to overcome the simple problems of getting people to understand that we do have a big problem in our breed, and have people saying it OK to 'go get a pup from parents with higher than average hips scores etc.... we dont stand a cat in h*lls chance

Allison.... we have many BYB in our breed who breed from higher than average scoring dogs , I do not feel it fair of you to suggest to someone looking for a Labrador puppy that higher than breed average hips scores in the parents is ok...It most certainly is NOT OK (I make no apologies for shouting)  We have been trying for years to overcome this type of breeding and your reply is simply making a mockery of all that we are trying to do...

Just because someone who has bought a pup from a higher that average mating has no problems....then that is really lucky.......give thought to the thousands who have not been so lucky....give thought to the pups that have no life....a puppy may have a fantastic temperament....but what use is that when they are crippled, they are entitled to both....WE are at least trying to make that happen.....

I will say again, to whoever wishes to listen....Please do not consider purchasing a pup from anything but the best results.....and certainly never from any mating that does not meet or fall below the breed average in hips scoring.

For what it's worth I agree with Kay - there are hardly a shortage of labrador breeders, so why compromise on any level.  Agreed temprement is hugely important, but it is not difficult to find labs with a nice temprament really (but maybe i'm bias)!!  There is no reason why any potential owner can't expect to find a pup from parents with both excellent temperaments and very good health scores/tests, so compromising shouldn't be an option :)

As for books to read up on labs... some may disagree, but I think 'Labrador Retrievers for Dummys' is a pretty good introductory book - the title amused me!!

~Clare

But what you are saying is that you wouldn't breed from a bitch with a 16 HS.  Come on there has to be sense somewhere in all of this.  I would not advocate breeding from a high hip score, but if you go back far enough people used to have breeders letters etc. and really good dogs were completely discounted.  That would be scandalous to get back to that situation.  I agree that there are some very unscrupulous breeders out there however they are not all confined to the hobby breeder.  There is a breeder, show person, in your breed at present who has had two litters from a bitch ( quite large litters both times) within a 7 month period.  But I dare say the bitch has good hip scores. 

Not my breed but I would have thought with 45,000 being registered in one year, it would be possible to chose temperament, quality AND low hip scores for the sake of a tankful of petrol???????

PS  I happen to agree that the inherited bit of HD gives the predisposition to the problem - the rearing and exercise exacerbating it.

People always say 'both parents must be scored low'  personally I think you should look at every dog in at least the last five generations and in respect of a higher score, imo if all the dogs behind him/her had scores well below bms I would 'consider' that particular dog, if he/she was exceptional in all other respects. Temperament appears to be far more the issue in the breed, I think it is disgraceful how some of them lunge at you on the benches, if they are being shown and possibly do well, those dogs will probably go on to breed :-(

That's certainly relevant in my breed. I find that many tendencies, physical and temperament, can skip a generation of two and surface again, which is why I advocate knowing the dogs in the pedigree and siblings too if possible.

But that is were the problems lie, a person looking for a pet wouldn't know what the temperaments are like generations back like the knowledgeable breeder would.  As discussed, some of the reknowned breeders aren't taking temperament into consideration when breeding but are 'bragging' about their low hip scores.  In my own case (Golden Retrievers) I have a bitch with a hip score of 55, obviously never bred from, but she is now 11 1/2 years old and has never been lame in her life.  She is still taking the same exercise as my younger girls, albeit that she doesn't run around madly like them any more, but she has got the most fantastic temperament that anyone, in any breed, could wish for.  In fact, she is the dog that I am asked to take along to the Obedience classes to socialise any aggressive dogs.  This hip score has never caused her any problems and certainly never any pain or discomfort. What I am trying to say is that her parents weren't high, so where did this hip score come from.  Breeding from slightly higher than average scores doesn't necessarily cause any problems just as breeding from low scores cannot guarantee low scores.  But temperament can be seen and can be the reason why a dog is put to sleep because it is a danger. 

This hip score has never caused her any problems and certainly never any pain or discomfort. What I am trying to say is that her parents weren't high, so where did this hip score come from.  Breeding from slightly higher than average scores doesn't necessarily cause any problems just as breeding from low scores cannot guarantee low scores.

Me, I've got a Golden with a score of 96 -his dad was below average and his mum above, and my dog most definitely does have very serious problems. He's from a repeat mating (as the first one prodced a Sh Ch) and his older brother scored "only" 32. Yes you can never be sure whas going to happen, but why risk it. I actually queried with the GRC my dog's breeding -why had the stud dog owner allowed his dog to twice mate a bitch well above average? The reply I got was that if I wanted to persue the matter they would definitely consider taking action against the stud owner and breeder both. Now my dog's breeder is one of the "old school" who didn't "believe in hip scores as they weren't done when I started".........

I'm not really sure why this has to be an "either" / "or" thing - why are we comparing temperaments and hip scores and trying to decide which is more important??

Isn't the answer that they are BOTH important and that you should find parents with BOTH excellent temperaments AND low hip scores?? 

I don't have goldens but I'd assume there are dogs being bred out there, with both good temperaments and low hips??  If so, why would you not get a pup from a breeding like that, instead of just one or the other??  Confused am I!

>I'm not really sure why this has to be an "either" / "or" thing - why are we comparing temperaments and >hip scores and trying to decide which is more important??

>Isn't the answer that they are BOTH important and that you should find parents with BOTH excellent >temperaments AND low hip scores?? 

Exactly my point.....but I didnt through temperament into the equasion simply because using anything less than good temperament should not be considered ...regardless of test results....my initial reaction was to the posting advocating it was OK to go ahead and take pups from higher than avergage scores for the breed

Lets look at it another way.....If we had a genetically small gene pool, then I could understand why it could possibly be understandable to need to use a slightly higher than average score, but only if the dog was so exceptional that it would be such a detrimental loss in the whole scheme of things.....

However....Labradors do not have a small gene pool, we have a massive choice, so compromise is not an issue.....nothing but the highest standard is acceptable

Hi All.

Although I only have rescue mutts I always follow breed discussions with interest.

Just to play Devil's Advocate for a moment: how would I (averagely-ignorant-yet-wanting-to-be-responsible pet owner) find good information about temperament?  Hip/elbow/eye scores are obviously measurable but what breeder is going to tell me about dodgy behavioural traits?  I take the point that the best breeders would not compromise on either issue but how would I (well-meaning but clueless) be able to pick the best from the not-so-scrupulous?  Would the breed club tell me? Would I have to spend months going to shows and picking up on the gossip - or what?

Also, on the research I've done on HD, it mentioned that the dog's own tolerance plays a big part in the condition's effects.  That is, a dog with a relatively high score can be virtually unaffected while another with a relatively low score has a much poorer quality of life.

As ever all comments welcome.

Regards, Linda

Hi Criagles,

As someone just having spent the best part of a year looking into labrador options - getting our first family dog in April, although I did grow up with labs as a girl, last one passed on in 1994 - I think I'm in a pretty good position to share some of my extensive findings.  I completely agree with Kay, .....nothing but the highest standard is acceptable and I came from knowing very little last Autumn; my standards have certainly risen the more research I've put into this journey. 

Firt of all, I registered with a labrador rescue society, which can certainly be a socially responsible thing to do - and a lot cheaper, you would pay £100 or so for a young pup compared to £500 for a dog whom you find from a breeder - but having very small children, it really matters to me that I get a dog whose temperament we really do know and you can only really do this with breeders - apart from in some unusual cases where the lab rescue people do really know the background of the dog concerned.  in our case, they were only going to place a young dog with us whose history they knew, but you don't get the pedigree papers wiht a rescue dog, so never really know its lineage.  The more I have gone in to this, the more I want to know about the dog and breeding into which I'm investing the next 13 to 15 years of our family's life and I am very happy with where we've ended up having been put in touch wiht a msot excellent breeder.  You need to spend some time with someone who really knows their stuff (I've benefited from some really kind people along my way, some on here, some on a separate lab forum and the breeder herself who's spent many an hour on the phone with me) and decide whether you want to go for show lines or working lines - the dogs can look very different.  If you decide on show, then watch the tv coverage of Crufts on Sunday when they show gundogs.

I;m ridiculously excited about getting our pup in April and feel really pleased with all of the legwork we've put in to find him.  good luck with your adventure!

Kerri

Hi thanks to all for the replies, like kerri i will be putting a lot of research into this although I'm getting a wee bit excited already I must admit!  I'm going to Crufts my first ever visit on Sunday and chose that day because of gundogs.  I won't even beginning looking at getting a pup until after August, so may well be next year before my dream materialises but I'm patient and want to make the right choice.  We chose Dicksy (Cocker) from recommendation and hopefully will do the same when I find Lab people to assist!

Just to clarify hip scoring as an overview. There is a shroud of mystery surrounding it for some and its really quite straightforward.

Hip Dysplacia is Polygenetic - so it has several factors creating it or, at least, it can be there because of SEVERAL things. HD is basically created by the fact that the ball and socket do not flow easily, or sit badly together, they are hindered by chips of bone, a mishaped socket or some other joint factor. This mishape or damage can be caused by an accident. OR By constant hammering on immature joints by too much early exercise, lots of jumping in and out of cars, up and down stairs or crashing about regularly with bigger heavier dogs.

HOWEVER, there would have to be a Heck of a lot of this sort of activity to damage the joints to the extent that the actual ball and socket are damaged. An accident, yes, that might well do this sort of damage, BUt the most common factor will be that the joint is mishapen from birth. This is a genetic factor that is not always the reason for HD but because of the above is most of it. Hence trying to breed the best joints we can. Therefore trying to make a system where one only breeds from dogs with decent joints and therefore having the highest possible chance of BREEDING decent joints because this has, very strongly, been proven to be passed down.

So when the joints are fully formed around 12 months of age the dog which is potentially to be bred from has a single xray taken of its pelvis area. This xray is then sent up to the BVA (British Veterinary Association) where a panel of experts sit around once a month to study 'score' each xray sent.

The angles and areas of the joint are marked, 9 different things are looked at in all on the left hip. Then the right hip. Each of the 9 things looked at are marked, for each hip seperately, out of 6 (apart from one which is marked out of 5). 6 being the worst score, 0 being the best. So 9 x 6 + 5 makes the worst possible score for each hip to be 53. So 53 for the left hip and 53 for the right hip making a worst possible total score of 106.

At the end of 2004 the average breed score for Labradors was 15.21 as a TOTAL of both hips. The hip score can sometimes be given as one figure, a total of both hips (such as the aforementioned '15') OR some like to seperate it out and say 5:10 (for example.)

So, in theory, a good low score mated to a good low score - something under the breed average, but IDEALLY under ten - SHOULD give genetically the very best chance of all the offspring having good hips. 'Even' results are also desireable such as 7:7 would be a more attractive hip score than 1:13 as the 13 would show quite a lot of undesierable factors where as the other is practically perfect. Occasionally, VERY occasionally a dog DOES score 0:0.

However fate is an arse and partly through sheer bad luck, and partly through the fact that, the above mentioned environmental factors can interfere (accidents, hugely excessive stress on the joints etc etc) means that even with low scored parents, the odd occurence of HD can creep in regardless.

My own feelings about what should and shouldn't be mated are not necessarily middle of the road and are mostly based on producing dogs as a WHOLE creature and not just a set of decent hips, but indeed, as a general rule, the gene pool is large in our breed and we can think type, temperament and health all in the same mating when chosing dogs to breed from.

Hope that explains things in more detail.

Di Stevens

I have a yellow lab who is 3 years old and has now won 18 rossettes in obedience shows in just over a year.

He has won out of pre beginners (actually won twice) and has won one beginners class.  We are working towards winning another beginners in order that I can apply for the inter regional teams at Crufts.

It can be done with labs and they are very bidable and eager to please so with the right training and attitude then you will succeed.

Emma

I like you Emma want to go down the obedience line.  I really enjoy watching this and feel it must be very satisfying (and sometimes frustrating) when taking part.  I'm getting a bit silly already thinking of names for the new pup that doesn't even exist yet!  bue eh ho let me dream!

:-D I know Craigles, we had the names before the pups were born, both sexes, and like one of the posters here, we had our name down with a breeder before the mating had taken place, so she's known since last Autumn that we were interested and has been happy to match us to the mating that has fitted in with us getting completely :rolleyes: sorted at home - ie, getting back from holidays, kids being that little bit older etc.  I have pm'd you regarding breeders, I was given a very authoritative list of recommended ones I'd be happy to share with you if you're wondering who to look out for at Crufts!  Having said that, I'm sure anyone posting here could give you such a thing of their own devising and we amy or may not all come up with the same ideas.

Have a great time at the weekend - I'm quite envious, but shall be hoping to catch some of it on the TV.

Kerri

Thanks for this Di, most informative, will save all these messages and hopefully learn from and make the right choice from. 

I love every single minute in the ring with henry.  It helps having such a happy dog tho!  He adores his work and would do heelwork all day long!

Even when things do go wrong, you have to take it on the chin, go home and work harder but at the end of the day, you take the best dog home.

Enjoy every second you do it and you won't go wrong.

Labs are Fab!!!! x

>how would I (averagely-ignorant-yet-wanting-to-be-responsible pet owner) find good information about temperament? <

Not an easy one to answer, but I will tell you how I started.  I was looking for a breed that are not always known for their temperament, or being an easy breed to live with.

I visited as many Championship Shows as I could, Crufts included.  I bought a catalogue and walked around the benches to start with.  Any dog that showed any agression on the bench or was in a cage covered with a towel, were crossed through.  ( I now know not all dogs are covered because of their temperament, but several are).  Any dog quitely settled on the bench got a tick.

Then I moved on to sitting by the ring and marking my catalogue with the dogs I liked.  After about three shows it all started to make sense and I could study the catalogue and find the breeding I liked.

Then before talking to the breeder, I found exhibitors that had their breeding and asked them lots of questions regarding their dogs temperament. 

Eventually I contacted the breeder and had the usual discussions with her and visited her dogs at home.  I had my name down with her for a mating that had not even taken place yet, it was a long wait, but so worth it.

This may not be foolproof, but it worked for me and I have a lovely bitch who I am very proud of.

Its very much a pleasure. The certain thing to bear in mind is to KEEP an open mind. People who offer you a list of 'reputable' breeders and so on have their own set of criteria and base their list on that, which may be different to yours. Even breed clubs can spin you in the convenient direction to the breed club secretary on any one night - but is a better route to go than joe publics recommendations.

The Kennel Club are next to useless on the 'finding a reputable breeder' front because they don't insist on anything to register puppies and take folks £10 to go on the puppy list other than that both parents are kennel club registered!  When you speak with a breeder go on gut feeling, and whether, when you go visit, you would like a almost cloned version of the dam, or dam and Sire you are seeing. If you have your reservations, be it their temperament, their health scores, the breeder riding roughshod over all the good advice you have been given here and so on.... then walk.

Di

My dog is my first as an adult and HD was a consideration when looking for a pup.  My dog's breeder advertises that she breeds for temperament.  She doesn't push the fact that the hip scores are below average it's just a matter of fact "a given" and that is how it should be IMO.  Doesn't matter if the dogs are sweet natured if the breeders don't breed for the whole health package keep looking because there will be breeders that do.