Hi,

I am hoping someone can ease my mind because I really am struggling to enjoy my walks at the moment. We have a 4 month old Golden Retriever male and just after christmas, he was on a lead and we were approcahed by 2 Staffies. The smaller one (since found out she is female about 18mths) really went for Jester. Got him by the back of the neck and in panic i actually had him up by his lead which then resulted in my hand being bitten as it was in the way. The guy was very apologetic and said it had never happened before.

We then met this mans teenage son about 2 weeks ago, I shouted politely ahead if we could put his dogs on a lead as his dog had attacked, he said they never attack and he said he didnt have a lead. The bigger one went straight for Jester (again Jester was on a lead). Now my main worry is both times i have a 2 year old and 3 year old with me and obviously I cannot move away quick enough if we bump into him again. I spend walks now being scared we will see them if I have my kids with me, which is most of the time.

Now I dont know much about the breed, should I worry that they will turn on one of the kids. Is it because Jester is on a lead, or a puppy or because they sense him as a threat as a full male? Should I let him off the lead? To cut a long story short, am a bit wary of reporting them as it turns out the same son is friends with the boy over the road, so he saw me at my house and I know feel very uncomfortable.

Any advice greatly appreciated.

I am a staffy owner, some staffys can be dog agressive, my dog was brilliant with other dogs until he turned 3 and he changed I always keep him on a lead now in public places, but he is fine with my other two dogs.

I think I have understand you post correctly, but please put me right if I have not.  Staffordshire bull terriers are very much people dogs,  the Kennel Club states in there discription of this breed that they are excellent with children, but like any breed you will always have an exeption. Weather it be through bad breeding or other?

I know Pitbulls are banned in this contry but were I live there are a few going around being passed off as Staffys, could the dogs you have come across be these.  This really annoys me as when they do attack other dogs they are going to drag the good reputation of the staffy through the muck????

Hi,

Many thanks for your reply. They are definately Staffordshire Bull Terriers, pure black - I looked them up on the internet as I wasnt sure and they are a spitting image.

Cocopops

please dont worry about your kids. staffies are great with kids.
i dont trust strange ones with my dogs,sadly,as ive had bad experinces with some. that said there are some nice ones around too!

if i see a strange staff off the lead,i go the other way,i just wont risk it :(

if they are on the lead,im happy to let the dogs say hello etc.

no need to worry about your kids though.

I don't think we can say there's no need to worry when these staffies obviously aren't under control. Yes, generally the breed are great with kids BUT it would be easy to knock one of the kids over in a scuffle - or as the OP found out sometimes people get bitten by mistake in a dog fight. I would try hard to avoid these dogs even if it means finding another walk :(

I personally wouldn't blame the breed its just bad ownership/handling from what you have put which can happen with any breed mine would and have knocked a child for six (only my own child) and luckily she isnt old enough to sue me yet!! (They aren't staffs)

If you can i would as you can often figure a best time to walk when its quieter and also enroll your new baby into a puppy class or other to get her used to other more placid dogs to gain her confidence.

No-one should have to go through what you have gone through and i find it pretty rude and inconsiderate of the other dog walkers to do that to you.

I agree Mygirl, and should have said that in my post, it really doesn't matter what breed it is but I wouldn't want two out of control dogs that had previously attacked my dog anywhere near my kids (if I had any that is!)

Really in this case the dog warden should be informed, if the dogs are attacking for no reason (apart from Jester being there) then they are a danger to any dog, what if it was a yorkie or a young pup?  I'm sure that the dog warden would have to respect confidentiality?

I have had a similiar event recentley with my Staffordshire. Not that he was the problem dog involved.

My dog has always been brought up with other dogs in my area from a puppy. i made sure of this, so events like what happened wouldnt occur.

It was actually to male dobermans who tried attacking my dog, glady my dog stood its ground whilst on the lead.

I never let my dog off now with out having a good look around first. 

A few days later, I saw the bloke with the two dobermans at the local shop and i said to him to keep his dogs on the lead. i will be honest, he actually agreed!!  i explained to him, what if that was an elderly person walking their dog, and he or she couldnt handle the dog as well as i did on that day. it could scare the person into never taking their dog for a walk again! Since then when we see each other, we respect not our space, but our dogs space! i think thats what a lot of dogs owners have got to come to grips with.

with respect to the Staffordshire going for your children in the mix up of a dog confrontation, i would agree with  a couple of posts above. If ANY dog not just staffordshire's, are having a confrontation with another dog, all people (owners as well) are at risk untill the situation is under controll. This is the nature of a dog to defend its space or see off another outsider. if it does happen again whilst your children are with you the best thing i could say  (which to honest, is obvious )is to make sure your children are well out of the way just in case (espeacially around the unfamiliar dog). Also try talking to the bloke, without the company of the dogs and explain to him your's and his situation. Im sure he dosent want the event to re-occur.
 

It may be that these Staffies would not hurt your children, and I don't know enough about the breed to give a fair judgement. I would say however, that your children would be greatly traumatised if they had to see your baby torn apart by aggressive dogs, whatever the breed. You really must confront the owner and tell them it has happened a second time. If the son had his dogs out without a lead, then they are breaking the law anyway I think?? You don't say if you were in a park, but even so, if the lad had no lead with him, he must have walked them on a public road without one to get to and from his house?

I agree with Dill & TansysMum, any owner walking their dogs without a lead should be reported to the Dog Warden.  These dogs have attacked, theu will also probably pack together and believe me your dog won't stand a chance if they decide to really attack.  I have four Golden Retrievers and I won't let all of mine go over to a dog together as it puts the other dog on the defensive with four running at it, I know they won't hurt the dog but what if the dog panics and runs away, what if the dog fights, they will probably pack together and see it off. No this owner should have more respect for other peoples dogs.  Also the gentleman said it had never happened before, therefore having happened once he should have instructed his son to keep a careful eye on them!

I wouldn't worry about them going for your kids - there is no evidence that a dog-aggressive dog is likely to become a child-aggressive dog or change the focus of the aggression.

However, what you have experienced is totally out of order.

Firstly, it is ILLEGAL for any dog to be off lead on a road or pavement.

Secondly, even if you weren't on a road or pavement, it is ILLEGAL for any dog to be "out of control" in a public place - I would consider attacking other dogs to be "out of control".

Thirdly, these people are incredibly irresponsible 1. to go out without a lead 2. to refuse to put their dog on lead when you asked for it and 3. to allow this to happen twice. 

It is NOT necessarily because your dog is on a lead, it is NOT necessarily because he is a puppy and it is NOT necessarily because he's a full male - no one can give you definite answers to these questions.  The fact is that this is their problem, not yours, so please stop worrying about what the cause of it is.

What you DO need to worry about is the impact of this on your dog.  Aggression is contagious and if your dog feels threatened now by this dog, he himself may in future develop aggression towards other staffies, or perhaps to all entire males of whatever breed or even towards other dogs.  At 16 wks old now your pup is within the important socialisation window and he has now had TWO very negative experiences with other dogs within this critical time.  You may not see any effect of this now, or indeed for many months, but he MAY go on to develop aggression towards other dogs during adoloscence and this may or may not be attributable to these early experiences. 

All you can do is to socialise him extensively with other dogs and make sure he has as much fun and positive experiences around other dogs as possible from now on - no time to lose.  And of course to avoid, at all costs, another encounter with these staffies.

I go to great lengths to walk my dogs where I know we will not come across other dogs.  It would be a lot quicker for me to use other places, but I don't.  If I see a strange dog, I will cross roads, turn around, walk away, leave parks, pick up my puppy, tell the other owner that MY dog is aggressive (it's not) - do whatever is within my power to avoid a confrontation with a strange dog.  My dogs get lots of great socialisation with other dogs which I know and trust at training classes and shows and the few doggy "friends" they have.  You can't trust other owners - you can't believe them when they say their dog is not aggressive - you have to be proactive and not let the situation arise.  In my experience people don't make enough effort to protect their dogs' temperaments by trying to avoid this kind of thing.  It's especially important with a young puppy.  Personally, I would have picked the puppy up both times if I were you - he's 16 wks now and this might only just be possible, but before Xmas he would definitely have been able to be picked up. 

Thank you all for your replies. I will contact the dog warden on monday morning, it may well be that someone else has reported them too. When the son was walking them he was both on a public road and in a meadow with a public footpath running through it. When it happended it was firstly a Sunday morning and then 3.30pm when the schools had finished and the boy over the road is 15, so I have been driving into the forest at these times, to much annoyance that I have to go out of my way but I would prefer to lessen the risk of bumping into them. I also today took a buggy with me which will fit both children in so I can get away if I see them.

Also meant to say, we have just finished the puppy foundation so he has been well used to other black dogs as most of them on the course were black labs. I also walk a couple of times a week with a friend and her couple of dogs and he has yet to show any restraint with any of them so hopefully the 2 attacks have not affected him too much.

i was out for a walk with my 3 dogs on friday luchtime and as i passed a house a staffy bitch came running out of her garden, the bloke who owned her and his mate were standing in the front garden.  i stood still immediately as soon as i saw her and at first i thought she was dog friendly as she was wagging her tail and generally having a sniff of my am.cocker. next thing, she growled and grabbed my dogs face, luckily she let go straight away and the owner just came out and said "sorry about that" and got hold of her collar and took her back into his garden.  Luckily enough, none of my dogs are aggressive, but it could have been a lot worse. i felt so sick afterwards, i just wanted to get home asap! why is it that some people cant keep control of thier dogs?

becky

Have read these posts with interest, unfortunately the dogs are not the problem the owners are, i can make this statement as we have been on the other side of this situation. As owners of a staff now 12 yrs old, she was never the most dog friendly dog with strangers even though she lived with a whippet for years who she idolised, and now lives with 5 Chinese Cresteds that she sleeps with and has baby sat their pups. When my OH used to take her out he always surveyed the area before he let her off the lead, but many times he has kept her on the lead when seeing other dogs approaching. These dogs have been off the lead and even when my OH asked for the owners to call their dog and place it on the lead they still left it to come up to our Staff snarling and snapping, my OH trying to stand between the dogs. When our staff then tried to snap back they would say things like "your dog shouldn`t be out" or "our dog is only playing" but we were the ones accused of being irresponsible, i ask you. Chris

Hi,
The trouble is on Champdogs, you are speaking to responsible Staff owners.
But! nearly 12months ago my grandson got bitten by  his friends Staff.
It ripped his neck out a mil.from his main vain and the same from his wind pipe.
He was, and still is only five years old. He is lucky to be alive. He still has more
surgery to look forward to He was playing with the owners child. It had been showing
aggresion before but! no-one took any notice.
The jaw locks on a staff and it will ripe the skin and flesh away, there was a large hole
in my Grandsons neck. My daughter had a cross Staff pet, Which they loved.
But! the Staff did so much damage that the little mite used to shake when he
seen one, so there's had to be rehomed. Some very irresponsible owners do not care.
I would report them, to the police, for no leads, and the owners for harresment.
Just be carefull!! with yourselves and your dog.
Regards
Denese

>please dont worry about your kids. staffies are great with kids.

I have to disagree! I dont think you should tell him not to worry about his kids! Yes most staffies are wonderful with kids, and totally adore them, but the two that he described are obviously dont have typical staffie temprement and have been vicious to other dogs. I would be wary around them, you only have to read denese's post to see what could possible happen by a dog without a sound temprement. I have to agree with most though, its a shame that staffies have a bit of a bad rep, we have a staffie next door to us and his owner said we had to make sure our dogs didnt get through cause he though he would defend his house, we still havent told him that rosie got through and ate the staffies dinner, had a play with him and came back home!!! lol :D :D :D

Sarah xxx 

Agree with sara about being cautious so far as children and these particular staffies are concerned. They are "people dogs" but sadly there are so many idiots out there who own staffies for all the wrong reasons that the breed is getting a reputation it doesn't deserve. And talking of idiots, I don't walk my dog in Brighton very often but having got some stuff to do in the city this morning I took Nips out for a quick saunter round one of the parks. Where a chap who, if he were any thicker than he looked would need daily watering, was walking a very nice Staffy. But as soon as he saw me and Nips, instead of just carrying on as before, and letting the dog walk sensibly I got treated to all this "well 'ard" chain pulling nonsense as he desperately tried to get some attitude out of this poor dog before hauling it into the back of his car

So yes, I'd love to put your mind at rest about Staffys but all the while they fall into the wrong hands it gets increasingly difficult.

That is a terrible thing to have happened to your Grandson but I must point out that while staffs do have very powerful jaws and can be determined not to let go,they don't actualy "lock".It is an urban myth you hear about Staffs and Pits all the time that simply isn't true ;)

Hi,
To hear, that there jaws locking is a myth!! well that mean's they can help what they do!
I had heard that there jaws locked, So! I assumed they could not helpl the damage they did!!
So an aggressive Staff IS!! a serious threat!! So the dog that ripe out large areas
when it bites, and  NOT! provoked, they should all wear muzzels!!
I would report the dogs not being under control, being nasty and no! lead, to the police,
get it loged, then after 3 reports, they call and see them, and give them a warning,
if they attack your dogs for NO! reason, report them, if they go for you, report them.
Get it stopped before it's to late.

Hi Denese

>To hear, that there jaws locking is a myth!! well that mean's they can help what they do!

that really isn't a relevant comment re. this breed :(  The size, make-up of the jaw and surrounding muscle structure in this breed and similar ones is naturally more powerful hence can cause more damage but a Staffy biting another dog -v- a BSD for example doing the same doesn't mean that the "intent" by the dog is any different!  Only (possibly) the outcome.

I've met many very dog friendly Staffs and once or twice if one of my boys was too flirty with a Staff bitch they've been told off in similar terms as they would be by any well mannered, well adjusted bitch of any breed - no damage done, serious or otherwise.  

regards, Teri

"To hear, that there jaws locking is a myth!! well that mean's they can help what they do!"

Denese, dogs do what they are hard wired to do, and if you want to take something out of ANY dog's mouth which it does not want to let go you will have a pretty hard job..................  no one is going to get my GSD to let go of his ball for example!

You should never "assume" anything, you know what they say about this.......... ;)

It makes an ass out of u and me............. ;)

Any aggressive dog of ANY breed is a serious threat, provocation, whether real or imagined is irrelevant, ALL breeds with a mouth larger than a beak can do serious damage to any dog.

Hysterical breed specific posts are not very constructive and only serve to promote ignorance and discrimination which I am sure we would all wish to avoid.

>ALL breeds with a mouth larger than a beak can do serious damage

LOL - goes off to measure budgie's jaws and do some forensic comparisons on the skirting boards :D :D :D

Hi tobme,
It's a pity you can not see the serious difigurement of all my grandsons neck,
Also the state the Staff has coursed to his well being!!!
"CONSTRUCTIVE POST" and you say my "INGORANCE" my grandsons life means a lot to me!
even though it may not to you!!
A lot of staffs around the midlands are viscous!! and are not
kept under control. you may be a person to take a risk with a childs life, I am not.
So please do not patrinise me as you always do!!
Our family have owned our breed of dog since the 1930's and there has never
been a case, of this nature happening to a child, like has happend to my grandson
I feel you are being very nieve!!

Denese,while i understand your horror at what your grandson went through those kind of statements do nothing to help ayone :( These articles are about Pitts but apply just as well to Staffs.There are good and bad in all breeds along with good and bad owners.Please don't add to the hysteria.

http://www.hugabull.com/manmush.html

http://dogs.about.com/od/dogbreeds/a/pit_bull_faq.htm

http://www.badrap.org/rescue/index.cfm

Charlie 72.
It may be bad owners but! the dogs are still nasty.
You have no idea of how serious and nasty it was.
The surgens were horified!!
Unless you were there trying to pack the large hole ripped out of his neck
with no flesh or skin there you would not understand.

Denese,

I don't think there is anyone on this board that doesn't empathize with your situation.  What people are trying to get across to you is that while, yes, the dogs that attacked your grandson may have been 'nasty' and need to be muzzled, euthanized, whatever, they are not a representative of the whole breed. 

I have been attacked by a German Shepherd that ripped a chunk out of my leg...THAT GSD was vicious, I don't use him as a tell all of his breed.

When people such as yourself become this inflamed about a topic it damages the breed and perpetuates stereo-types which don't help anyone.

To hear, that there jaws locking is a myth!! well that mean's they can help what they do!
I had heard that there jaws locked, So! I assumed they could not helpl the damage they did!!


That's the problem when we go with what we 'hear' and don't find out for ourselves.  You obviously have internet access, that coupled with your concern regarding the unfortunate accident with your grandson, I'm surprised you've not researched the breed more in depth.  If you want to be very specific, no dog can 'help' the damage that they do as they don't think in terms of damage. 

Saying that all dogs should wear muzzles is a bit of hysterics I should think.  Every dog, no matter the breed, is an individual.  Not every staff is horrible and not every labrador is the ideal family pet.  Breeding for temperament, how they are raised, how they are trained, etc. all goes into making a dog what it is.

A vicious dog should be dealt with as such and not be made into a representative of its breed.

Hi Gibson,
Yes !! I think All nasty dogs should wear a muzzle!!

Sorry to contradict you, but no, staffs do not have locking jaws.  They have been bred for strong jaws and the ability to hang on through the years in order to better perform their jobs.  However, the locking jaw is a myth. 

To the OP...reporting them is going to be your only course.  Obviously the father didn't take the first bit seriously enough to ensure his dogs were on lead for each walk thereafter...the son telling you the dogs have never been aggressive points to that fact.  While it's smart for you to try to pick certain times to walk and/or not walk...it's not something you should have to do.  Reporting them may not do anything, however, it may...and you may be saving the next owner out for a walk from the same problems.

I shouted politely ahead if we could put his dogs on a lead as his dog had attacked, he said they never attack and he said he didnt have a lead.

Not good. Grrrr... Law breaker!  I'm such a stickler for the rules that someone not carrying a lead really winds me up even if their dogs are nice and cuddly!

  Well you get idiots like that all the time with any breed of dog... it could as easily been two bad labs.  Put a dog with a bad owner and yo get a dog who don't know how to behave!    I mean it's hard enough bringing them up right when we do our best to do it right!  

.... you just do your best with your own dog and try to stay civil with those with a 'different way of thinking' and the safest thing is to just try very hard to avoid them! 

Funny you should say that but on two occasions my dogs have had unprovoked attacks launched on them by male labs, once at a show,a sn once in the park, my dogs are bitches.  the only time I had issue with a staff my girl sent the dog about it's business.

I don't for a minute think either breed is a problem, but they are both very popular breeds and often owned by very ignorant people.

When rotties adn GSD's were the must have dog for any one wanting a hard image, there were more than enough bred with very poor temperament.

It is interesting that this improves once they are less fashionable.

Most of the breeds that have been fashionable at one time or another suffer from increased poor temperament when people not intertested in the breed but only in their bank balance do nto breed for good temperament.

Unfortunately it is the less educated and knowledgeable dog owner thatis more likely to own a badly bred dog.

A well bred, well socialised, well 'brought up' Staffy is a wonderful dog (as with all dogs) :)

I agree with this statement! ;) It all depends on the breeding and obviously new owners and their approach to the dog and how well they socialize it. There is however one trick.... every breed is different and with some breeds you have to be more careful than the others. Some have much stronger yaws and can cause serious damage.

Denese
I in no way wish to detract from the serious injury that may have been caused to your child/grandson....

but please, get a f***ing grip..... you're just adding to the hysteria that surrounds bull breeds.... get your damn facts right!!!!:rolleyes:

hi all. a well trained staffy is a quality dog. we have had no problems with our girl. it is always other dog's that go for her. she let's them do it twice then she tell's them off. i think in the wrong hand's you will get a bad staff, but then again it will be the same with any breed. daft owner= daft dog.