http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4742632.stm

So how can anybody determine what is the accepted level of pain a woman has to endure until she will be allowed a free epidural :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Heard this on the news this morning. First people arent allowed life saving drugs, then were not allowed pain help in the most excrutiating pain on the earth...next we'll not be allowed general anaesthesia for operations!!

I bet it was a man that decided on this!! Aggggggh totally and utterly disgusting.  What they need to do for the NHS is get rid of half the managers and employ more of us who do the everyday jobs to keep the hospitals etc. going!

Yes I was wondering if men gave birth whether this would have been any where near the agenda :rolleyes: :D

Hmmm ....well, I (personal opinion only!) consider an epidural a luxury rather than a necessity ...and they are quite happy to provide gas and air as well as pethidine so it isn't as though every woman HAS to have a completely natural birth

Oh and before anyone says owt ..I had 4 without an epidural and one with ;)

My gut reaction is to agree with you.  I had a 12 hour labour using Gas and Air to deliver a 9lb 14oz daughter, and my second labour was induced so very intense but only half as long also Gas and Air delivering a 9lb 9oz child (I am 5 feet 4 inches tall).

On the other hand my friend in her late 30's having her first child was in labour for 3 days and her Labour wouldn't progress,a dn an Epidural was certainly warranted.

In most straight forward average length labours I do think them a luxury.

>I bet it was a man that decided on this

The Telegraph story cites Midwives as being the driving force ;)

Im training to be a manager in the NHS Lets not get rid of all of em! Just a couple!! lol

Tracy123, in your profile it says Medical Secretary, and a hobby of getting rat a**ed!! In another post you want to get married in Church even though you and your OH are none believers? NOW you are gonna be an NHS Manager and we shouldn't get rid of Managers!!! HELP Let me join BUPA!!! LOL :D :D :D

Im a Medical Secretary with a life!! Im 21...give me a break. Also I said Im trainingto be a manager...Not quite there yet!!

Nothing wrong with getting married in a church! :rolleyes:

You have a life??

THAT'S NOT FAIR

(Where can I find one please? :D :P )

I think you got MPD!!! And obviously haven't learnt anything about the rights and wrongs of hypocrisy!!! :rolleyes: Sorry, but being a Medical secretary and training to be an NHS Manager are totally different things....trust me I'm a (senior) Nurse retired!

Won't different trusts run different sorts of training schemes?

They do, but generally the training schemes for NHS Managers are fulltime 'part on the job' and part 'classroom' schemes. They are generally following the same syllabus, much as the Nurse training schemes/Degrees that are put on. I don't know of ANY that have say evening classes as such!! Even if you attend an Institute of Managers training module/scheme they are held over periods of say days and weeks and mean 'living in' for the duration of the course? Frankly, I'm a little puzzled!

Im confused. Are you saying this course is a week's course? You havent made yourself very clear. Could you elaborate?

Perhaps you should explain how you are doing your NHS managers training? I left the NHS a couple of years ago and maybe things have moved on? I said that all the NHS Trainee Manager schemes were full time commitments. With allocated times in the 'classroom' as such and episodes in various departments throughout the Hospital. Mainly they were run in large Teaching/University Hospitals that allowed college/classroom time, studying towards a Degree in Management. I also said that the Institute of Managers that run courses for senior Managers usually have an inclusive residential course/s that require you to be on site as such. I wondered where you fit into this? It must be very difficult to attend courses and be a Medical secretary?

Also meant to add...that, if like me, you had a few years service in a Senior Nurses post AND had a Degree, you were eligible to apply for NHS Manager status. But the competition was fierce and the fact that you had Medical training meant not a jot, as we know!! There are plenty of NHS Managers that know NOT A LOT about patients and their requirements!! Sadly!

>There are plenty of NHS Managers that know NOT A LOT about patients and their requirements<

I agree with you on this one. A lot of people get management jobs in the NHS because they have experience of being managers elsewhere which I think is wrong. I think you need to know the processes within the NHS before you can delegate/manage etc.

The course Im on means twice a month I sit in a 1 day tutorial. The teachers come to us and we spend all day doing a couple of subjects (i.e. coaching, PDR's, thats kind of thing). We came back off the residential yesterday - they took us to Scarborough, about 2 hours away from me and we did presentations and things.

My theory is: Im 21, Ive got a lot to learn and if I can become an administrative manager by working my way up then thats the way Ill do it. Surely its better for the trust if someone whos worked on the shop floor progresses to management than someone coming straight from uni with a management degree?? Maybe Im wrong?!?:rolleyes:

My epidural was rubbish and simply numbed my legs (for 2 days! ) so that I couldn't move to make the (unaffected) pain from the contractions bearable. Horrible, horrible thing - why anyone would want one is beyond me.

I think its a brill idea :D

I, personally, think a lot of births are slowed, leading to traumatic intervention, following epidurals. I had one with Mollie and it was RUBBISH - and it slowed my labour down and I ended up with forceps. With Archie I refused to have one and my labour was painful but FAST - up until they discovered he was 10lb 8oz and it was c-section time.

I wouldn't have an epidural if they paid ME! :D :D

I don't think it is a simple as just denying people painrelief the giving of epidurals greatly increases the likelyhood of further interventions such as more drugs, forceps or ventous delivery or even sections so putting baby and mother at greater risk.  Not sure about the scheme to make people pay though as this creates a two tier system better just to have a campaign of enlightenment and greater support for those choosing a "natural" birth.  The money they save on any unused epidurals could provide extra staff, for instance, to support women through it.

I had one with Matthew and never again, I could feel the contractions but not when to push, with Bronwyn I had gas and air and it was over much faster.
Mary

I suppose everybody has their own experiences :) With me I cannot not fault the two I had :)

Have you had a natural birth ?

One ventouse and one elective CS.

The first time she got stuck and so I was in too much pain due to the way she was positioned so hence the epidural, it was so wonderful when the pain stopped :) She couldn't come out on her own as she was jammed hence the ventouse in the end.

The CS was an epidural and a spinal block which they used for 24 hours afterwards for pain relief :)

I had a spinal block with both my c-sections and both wore off 2 hours after and I was up and in the shower in 5 hours....(wobbly, but just about OK). They don't use eipdurals at Stafford hospitals with C-Sections - thank goodness. I hate them. The one I had put me off for life!

I ended up with a GA for an emergency CS because the epidural was so ineffective (the gas and air was lovely though!) and not being able to move properly had ruptured my uterus - I remember exactly when that happened too. :(

So that would be a no then? :D

My epidural was fab until it came to second stage when it had NO effect at all ..so from no pain to the pain of pushing and delivery in about 10 minutes :( All the while, idiot staff telling me I couldn't feel anything LOL Yeah right ;)

Conor got stuck as well, the docs decided to get him out manually and *that* was painful but liveable obviously :D

The most painful thing ever was manual removal of my retained placenta with my first (normally done under GA).

I didn't like the idea at all but was practicly forced in to having one due to blood pressure problems,if that is the case I'm sure the cost won't come in to it.They wouldn't top it up near to the actual birth anyway as they wanted me to push so I didn't realy feel the benefit anyway:rolleyes:

I would love to have natural childbirth, NO JENNY and TERRI I'm not, it would be a miracle if I was :d :d  But unfortunately I've already been told that I'll have to go the C-section route if I ever have any children.

My mum had two children naturally and she always goes mad at the TV shows that show the mothers screaming and shouting, either she's forgotten the pain or she did have easy childbirth :d

I'm a card-carrying coward (and have the yellow streak down my back to prove it :D) .   I've had four children - first was a forceps delivery because of high blood pressure late in labour (was only in labour 3 hours).   The other 3 I had with no analgesia - but I always insisted on the gas & air being there - just took 1 contraction at a time - that one was ok - let's see if I'm going to need it for the next one!

After having No 1, I always felt I could have helped myself more, and found NCT classes where I learned a lot more of the physiology & psychology of labour which helped.   Maybe if more money was put into prenatal classes it might help more women.  

My mum used to say that if the carrying & delivering of children was divided equally between the parents - mother having 1st, father 2nd, there would be a majority of families of 2!!

Margot

I never used anything with either of my kids, wish I did with my son cause they had to push him back up since he was facing the ceiling instead of the floor now that was pain I don't ever wish to remember.... I agree if men had to have kids their would be far less people in the world :D lol

If the men had to have them we'd be extinct by now ;)

I would never want to have an epidural (or any form of intervention for that matter) unless it was medically necessary.  I fought through all 3 of my pregnancies for natural childbirth, and even the midwives were begging me to have some pain relief with my first :rolleyes: - all because (my opinion) even a lot of midwives do not really understand the birthing process.  Unfortunately my son got stuck and I received some very bad injuries due to the midwives pulling him out without a contraction - that was PAIN!!

We need to educate everyone - even a lot of the midwives as to what can be achieved with a truly natural birth - and to keep the doctors away from women in labour (unlesss of course there is a REAL need for them) - they caused me no end of problems   I am 5foot 3 inches tall and my first two babies were around the 10lb mark, but despite the doctor wanting to deliver my second by elective cesarian (as first was so big - he told me they might have to break the baby's bones to get it out if I refused), I managed to have him without

Out of interest, has anyone else who has more than one baby born naturally felt that they 'learnt' how to give birth after the first?  By my third I really knew what to do (and as a result he was born within two hours of my first contraction - bit of a difference from the first who was 23 hours

>By my third I really knew what to do (and as a result he was born within two hours of my first contraction - bit of a difference from the first who was 23 hours

Nothing to do with the length of labout IMHO ;) MY first was 23 hours (gas and air and pethedine) and the second 3 hours (nothing)....third was 14 hours (pethedine) and 4th 12 hours (gas and air):D Last was 16 hours though it was slowed for 5 hours because of the eipidural

However ..when you find out that there was only 17 months betwixt 1 and 2 ...then a gap of 4 years 2 and 3......then 9 years 3 and 4 and finally 3 years 4 and 5 ....you can see that (with me) the speed of labour was in fact proportionate to the length of time between pregnancies :)

I also had the epidural with my first.....Never again :-( I was advised to have it because i have a spinal condition, it wore of 2 hours before my son was born....and gave me severe back pain for months afterwards :-(

you can see that (with me) the speed of labour was in fact proportionate to the length of time between pregnancies

Did you feel though that you knew how to push properly by say your third?  With me it seemed that once it 'clicked' how to push properly, it really speeded things up.  Although I must admit there was only 18 months between my second (3 hours + gas and air) and third (1 and a half hours approx + gas and air), but nearly 4 years between first (pethidine + gas and air) and second.

I knew how to push properly with the first...I had a very good midwife :)

>I was advised to have it because i have a spinal condition<

I was as adamant with my first as I am with this one that i wasn't having an epidural because I have a spinal condition.
Now they refer you to a consultant obstetric anaesthetist (sp?) to discuss it and I thought i was going to have a bit of a fight on my hands after hearing about a friends experiences, but she took one look at my back and said if you don't want one thats fine with me, same with a spinal block. I couldn't see her face at the time but OH could and said it was kind of a 'oh s***' look LOL

So i've been told to keep mobile for as long as possible and make use of other pain relief methods. Can't stand gas and air, made me feel panicky and horrible, but pethidine is goooooooood :D

Natural child birth,No thanks! Why go through all that excruciating pain when you dont have to. I had an epidural with both my kids,requested after i could no longer stand the pain and after throwing up continuously from the gas.If the option is there to make child birth less painful,i will take it every time! Personally i dont like pain :p I never had any problems during or after the births.

I now have a spinal condition partly as a result of 1 epidural and 2 spinal blocks.... and its costing me a fortune in private chiroprator treatment to sort it out and make my lower back less painful!

I have a spinal condition simply due to having had 5 children :D Permanent lower back ache, some days worse than others. Doctor explained that a baby's head coming down can and often does press on the spine and straighten it, hence after 5 ..back ache

Don't know the truth of this but hay ho ;)

All this labour talk is making me soooooo nervous, only 9 weeks to go

thank goodness i am too old for any more babies, well except when the grand children arrive, but at the moment my daughters are not interested in men or babies,  one day perhaps!

I have 3 Grandchildren ..believe me it is FAR less painful :p :p :p

Well just to stop you feeling too nervous ive had 4 babys , one with gas and air, the second baby without, cos the midwife had forgotten it and we were at home. And the others without, One was a waterbirth at home and that seems to help a great deal with any pain. Reading some of the others accounts i realise i am so lucky with my births. Just want you to know that it isnt always so bad. It is definately my best life experience. And after the birth you will be ecstatic. Good luck to you.

Don't worry - most folk replying on here have had more than one, so it can't be that bad :D

Yep - it puts a lot of stress on the spine apparently - or so my chiro tells me. I've been a lot better since I've been going to him though and I get my neck adn back adn pelvis cricked regularly :D

Re the gas & air - I loved it - infact, they had to wrestle it off me after the births :D :D

I was absolutely sick as a pig on gas and air during my labours the midwives certainly did not encourage me to have an epidural they offered me paracetamol :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I had no problems whatsoever and having the newer lighter effect epidural at that time (i was up and about an hour after labour) I suspect many of these horror stories are down to the old longer lasting epidurals and would put you off for life.

A lot depends on how the baby is lying in the womb. My first 2 were fine. Epidural for No 1 (labour lasted 17+ hours), gas and air for No 2 (labour lasted 5 hours, but she was only 5lbs 10oz ) . No problems ;) No 3 had decided to lie across the womb and wouldn't move. She pushed my pelvis out of place by over 2 inches (ouch :( ) Gas and air again, but only 6 hours labour :) I'm still having problems with back pain, 12 years later. This last one was after a gap of 12 1/2 years. Never again :D