I had the upsetting and unfortunate need to return a puppy to a breeder last month.  The breeder offered money back in the first 7 days, but this was a three or four days after that time and the breeder said nothing about a refund.  I have now got the KC certificate through and if I send it back to the breeder it is an application for a change of ownership.  Technically at law, I would think that there has been no consideration, i.e. money, for a change of ownership as my wife paid for the puppy dog.

Am I within my rights to ask for some consideration for the KC change of ownership?  What do you think?

I'm not sure I understand the situation. The usual practice is that when a puppy is sold, the breeder fills out her part of registration document to transfer the ownership of the puppy to the new owner, who pays the KC fee and sends it off. The KC then sends the new document to the new owner. If you then return the puppy you fill out the seller's details on the form, give the document to the new owner (ie the breeder again) who then in turn has to pay the KC to have the ownership transferred back.

Are you asking whether you should get a refund for the transfer fee you paid? If so, then I wouldn't have thought so, because the breeder has to pay to get the ownership transferred back to her from you.

Thanks for that.  I'm not saying i should get a refund from the KC, but we paid £700 for the dog which the breeder now has and is keeping for a stud.  I have paid the money for the dog so at law I must have ownership even though it has gone back to the breeder.  Surely someone can only own something if they have paid for it?  What I really want is say half my money back!  Am I being unreasonable?

>Surely someone can only own something if they have paid for it?

Not exactly - gifts don't belong to the purchaser. It could be debated (if the breeder wanted to be bolshy) that you've donated the puppy back. Have you asked for any refund?

Why was he returned to the breeder?

Excellent point.

I haven't asked for a refund as it was all too traumatic at the time.  The problem was biting outside of puppy biting and chewing - would be playing normally and suddenly rush away and tear back at you and bite - both my youngsters suffered nasty bites accross the back of the leg and had to go for their booster injections - they were scared of getting near the dog and we couldn't safely have other children round.  This caused a fair degree of stress on top of the stress of looking after the dog in the first place which we would have coped with. 

If a vet had found the puppy to be ill then you would have been entitled to a refund as dogs come under the Sale of Goods Act, and it wouldn't have been 'fit for the purpose' - ie, not a healthy pet. However as there was nothing wrong with it (what you describe sounds like a normal reaction to over-stimulation) and you had kept it longer than the contract time for a full refund, then technically the breeder is within her rights to keep the price - after all, the pup's possibly been exposed to illness in the time it was away. You could try asking for some of the money back, but it would be entirely down to the breeder's goodwill. Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear.

I have paid the money for the dog so at law I must have ownership even though it has gone back to the breeder.  Surely someone can only own something if they have paid for it?  What I really want is say half my money back!

Under the Sale of Goods Act you are entitled to a refund if the goods(& that is what the puppy is)are unsuitable for the use that they were purchased for & like others have said if your dog was ill or defective then yes a refund would be in order. However from what you have said this is not the case & unless the puppy was aggressive from the day you collected it(which I very much doubt otherwise it would have been reurned earlier)then sorry No you are not entitled to anything & the KC paperwork does not prove ownership.

Thanks - I'll do that - just wanted to check out the situation.  If the breeder cuts up rough and won't pay anything can I keep the KC certificate?

Why would you want to? You're more likely to get some money back if you return the certificate.

Are you suire it's the KC certificate as the breeder would have sent this onto you and if she has the dog back then not so sure why she would send the registrations off to you when you don't have it anymore.  Is the paperwork not your 6 week free insurance one?

I had the KC Cert a couple of days after picking up the dog.  I sent it off to the KC and it came back in my name after the puppy went back.  I am happy to send it on but will hang onto it if the breeder is not keen on refunding part of the money.  Seems from what has been said that we might have been too hasty taking the dog back if it was a case of over stimulation - still you can only do what you think is right at the time and it's no use crying over spilt milk now. 

Ahh thanks for that :d  The breeder would need the paperwork back from you so that they could transfer it back into their name.  I'd just have a quick word with them and see what they say.

You state the breeder would give a refund if the puppy was returned within 7 days and you kept it 3 or 4 days longer than that - to be honest 10 or 11 days is not really long enough for a puppy to settle and learn acceptable behaviour. In this situation you are not entitled to any refund, but the breeder may let you have something. I doubt that holding the paperwork for ransom would further your cause, though. :(

To be honest, I don't think you gave this puppy a chance.  The behaviour you describe sounds like perfectly normal puppy behaviour.

But that's a whole other subject and what's done is done.

Think about this from the breeder's perspective - she had a litter and she tried her best to find the right homes for them.  She sold you a puppy because she thought you would be a loving and permanent home.  A week and a half later she gets a phone call from you, asking for her to take the puppy back.  There is nothing wrong with the puppy.  She is not legally obliged to take the puppy back, but she cares about it and she wants to see it in a loving and permanent home, so she does what is obviously the best thing for the puppy and agrees to take it back.

Presumably, up to here, you didn't think about or want any money refunded for the puppy?  If you did, you would have mentioned it to her before letting her take the puppy back.  It would have been something discussed and arranged.  It sounds like you just wanted rid of the puppy at this stage and that was your priority.

Then you get home and you're feeling a bit hard done by because you've lost £700.  The KC certificate appears in the post, in your name, and you decide to effectively hold it to ransom. 

Sorry but I think this is a low move.  The PUPPY is the priority, not your £700 quid.  You've already screwed up by taking on a dog without doing enough research into dogs and puppy behaviour, and this poor puppy has suffered as a result and been bounced back to the breeder.  The best thing now, for the PUPPY, is for the breeder to find it a loving and permanent home as quickly as possible.  This will be a lot harder without the KC certificate.  Spare a bit of thought for the poor dog in the middle of this and stop thinking of your wallet.

all puppys chew and bite , to them its called "playing" i have a 7 weeks old pup who likes nothing more then running out from under the sofa and "attacking" any thing in sight , then running of to hide again , he TRYS :rolleyes: to have a "mad half hour" but falls on the floor and sleeps half way throught...

so sorry i to agree with wots been said here and i dont think (imo) you gave the pup a change to settle , and just sent him back without giving him / her a chance.

Just to play devil's advocate, while I entirely agree with every thing that has been said, particularly from the kind of breeder here on champdogs,  a couple of things concern me.  Firstly, I wonder why the breeder (who presumably carefully vetted prospective puppy owners) did not point out that this was pretty normal behaviour for an overexcited puppy and perhaps help and support a new owner, particularly after only 10 days.  Secondly, and perhaps of more concern, why the breeder has now decided to keep the puppy to use as a stud dog . At, say 9/10 weeks the breeder has decided that a pup they had sold originally to a pet home is now going to be kept as a stud?  I can't help wondering if this is not a more 'commericial' type breeder. 
At the end of the day, the OP could have just sold this pup on and not gone back to the breeder..... And this breeder has no intention of trying to find a new home, but is keeping this (9/10 week old) puppy for use as a stud!  Of course, I may be wrong and in this instance, there may be valid reasons, but something doesn't quite add up.

The legal situation is quite different from the moral side of it, and sadly legally, I don't think you have a leg to stand on.  You could withhold the papers (so they won't use the dog at stud), but I think it more likely to hinder your cause.  Perhaps a friendly chat would be the best way forward.

The breeder may have decided it is better to instantly take back a pup if the new owners are concerned about something as small as puppy biting.  I mean - isn't it better to take the pup back at 9/10 wks and be able to find a new home for it, than to persuade the new owners to keep it longer, then they keep it until it's 4-5 months, before they realise they really can't deal with it and definitely tell the breeder they want to send it back.  Then the breeder has a 4-5 month old pup, potentially badly socialised, to rehome. 

Not to mention that the breeder may be afraid that if she refused to take the puppy back right now, the owners would just sell it themselves to someone less suitable. 

I know that if I was the breeder, I would instantly take the puppy back at the first signs of un-sureness on the part of the new owners.

As for the stud dog thing - don't forget that we are only getting one side of the story here and that's the people who took the pup back.  It makes the breeder look more money-grabbing and reflects her in a bad light to suggest she is going to keep the dog as a stud.

If she knows about KC registering dogs - which she does, because she sells them - and she wanted to use this one as a stud, she would have made 100% sure the papers came back with him when he was returned to her.

I totally agree with all you've said onetwothree, which is why I said that there may be valid reasons.. the ones you've stated, and quite understand why, but, that all assumes that the breeder is reputable.  I'm not disagreeing, more putting another side across.  It makes me wonder how well the breeder checked suitability, given that the OP had two young children and didn't know that this was normal puppy behaviour.  Of course, the OP could be making it up to make the breeder look bad, but at the same time, we all know that there are a lot of less than reputable breeders out there too, who aren't that bothered where their dogs go, or who don't give the back up a reputable breeder does (except they don't come on champdogs LOL).  I'm often amazed by what people assume is a reputable breeder, sometimes it's simply that they do kc register their dogs.

I think the breeders contract offering full refund of cost of puppy shows she is concerned about her puppies. I dont think a disreputable breeder would bother with a contract.

Except that alot of the commercial kennels do, some of the accredited breeders who breed litter after litter also do.  This along with the mention of using the puppy as a stud made me wonder whether it was one of these places the puppy came from.  Not trying to argue, and I do agree and see your point, but still wonder if all is as it appears.

Sadly the most seemingly sensible prepared new owners just can't cope with the reality of a puppy and many a breeder has had a pup back very quickly (actually far better as has been said). 

There is nothing more stomach churning as a breeder to realise the ownrs just aren't going to make a go of it and watch them drag  it out for months and then ahve to take the pup back at adolescence, as they seem often to think that at 6 months they should be all grown up and magically self trained.

We had a poster on ehre a while back who ahd researched getting a pup etc, and took it back teh next day, found the enormity of the responsibility too mcuh within hours of getting it home.

Having a puppy is traumatic! And especially with kids.  It takes weeks to get through theplay biting stage. You'd not even reached the stage where the pup could go to training classes... but did you take advice on training...? 

I suspect the pup was totally normal... but you mybe lacked a little knowledge on puppy babies. They have sharp teeth and play grab... like a human bably will grab your hair and pull, and so on.. they are not trying to hurt just doing what they do until they learn to replace that with more desirable behaviours.

With a little pup crate train it.Then just bring it out little and oftern to toulet and socialise.  Have the kids sitting still and then playing with th pup under your control and supervision... as pup gets bigger you can even keep it on a lead in the house while you train it.

Even for the first few months mibne only came out of their crates under supervision and had to earn their pkace in our home.  Even with training nd doing this my clothes looked like I was in a ship wrecked movie all tattered and torn!

I knew what to expect and knew what I was doing but still even wondered if there was more in the teeth than just play because my pup wold look and act a real terror so as soon as the jabs made it safe to take her out I took her to traoning club and asked their opinion... as well as trainig her there. She was a very spirited little  girl and I just needed to be a bit former with her and that sorted the problem.... but it was hard because her eyes were so heart melting! 

You really could have given this more time and taken advice about this and I think ou wold have found you got through tht stage... the first few weeks with a little pup are just hard and must be firmly, lovingly and patiently and well managed.  Sorry but I'd be really peeved with you for taking the pup and then returning it as aggressive  if I was the breeder.

I suspect telling you the dog will be kept as a stud dog is the breeders way of telling you this is a top rate pup with no  problem .

Just burry the hatchet and return theb papers to the breeder who is no doubt very upset to have mis-homed the pup. THe breeder has the responsibility to find the right home and it sounds to me she didn't check out the suitability of a pup with such little kids. 

My contracts have stated very clearly a week for a full refund or medical problems. Also the breeder would take the pup back in the first year and rehome the pup...and I was entitled to recieve the price the dog was resold for... after expenses were deducted.  After a year the breeder would still take the pup back at any time for any reason. I have no rights to sell or rehome either of my pups myself. 

I tried to edit but couldn't so will just add... I meant to mention sleep....when they are so young they need sleep sleep sleep.. like any bably ... or they will get bad temper and over excited. Keep things all calm....

The breeder has the responsibility to find the right home and it sounds to me she didn't check out the suitability of a pup with such little kids.  IF you want to negotiate some kind of refund that's what I'd play on then you re no poining the finger at the quality of her pups but at not spotting youur unsuitability or not supporting you enough.  I think you migt have a valid leg to stand on in that if she is the caring type.

I spend hours on the phone to the breeder over the first few weeks settling my pup in and trying to understand her personality nd tame her!  The breeder was most helpful... this is pat of what you are paying so much for... for this level of service and support. Again you can look and see if the breeder was availavle to try to help you through the issues.

Well...at last learn from this a little more about pups... we an all make mistakes and so on. Is it too late to try again with this pup... if he is not signed over he is still yours or did you make the breeder the official owner....?  What bred is this pup...? 

Just don't let this put you off the dog thing... you've had all this stress and learning and there are so many people here and on other sites who can help you through all the training etc... issues. Even people who know what they are doing with years of experience have times they realy need help and advice with their dogs. AT least your pup is in safe hands so you need have no upset ot worries about this most important little chap who came into your lives fot such a short time.  

I agree totally with all the points made but I also understand that gmailer was thinking of her/his children - they had already developed fear towards the puppy and if allowed to go on that fear would have escalated.  As a result, when the pup had 'grown up' the children would still have an errational fear of the dog.  It sounds like the best thing all round that the pup was taken back to the breeder to be found a home which it will flourish in - preferrably with children who are either used to puppies and know how to be around them, or children of an age/intellect for the parent(s) to be able to reason with them and 'teach' them quickly how to be around a young pup :)

With regards the money gmailer - I suggest you just forget about it.  A hard thing to do I know but at the end of the day we go through lives making 'mistakes' and there are consequences to our actions - just learn from it and move on :)

Edited - all the spelling mistakes ;)

but I also understand that gmailer was thinking of her/his children - they had already developed fear towards the puppy and if allowed to go on that fear would have escalated.  As a result, when the pup had 'grown up' the children would still have an errational fear of the dog.
I see parents post on this almost  every week on breed forum I post on... it is very sad that the 'higers species human' forgets to learn about puppy before buying puppy..... It actually makes me quite cross.  people should read books and learn about a pup before buying one... they should read the advise not to have one with little kids and so on...  practically all parents of kids go through this with pups... it is normal. The only way to teach kids not to fear is to overcome fear.... but mostly to at least read books and research first!  I am shocked that in this day and age this is still happening and it is a major reason why I would not breed. I would not want my pups to be 'educating' people but the people to educate the pup. People with £700 to buy a pup with should have been able to afford to soend £15 or so on a book.... or a few moments to take advice on the internet. Sorry... the more I see this the more cross I am.

I think pups are too connected in peoples minds with toilet training... people are led to think that is the hard part of having a pup... but the hard thing is them eating your children, your furniture , your house, and even you!   Maybe books should spell this out more. And How by careful management theses issues can be managed or even avoided.

I suppose when we have babies they are so hard at times too and maybe we would send our babies back too if there was a 'back' to send them to. I know this half term if you could send teens 'back' I would be very tempted!  ;)  Young things are just hard work!

Just wondering if poster kept the KC reg and was able to prove legal ownership, could breeder then in turn charge for kennel fees for feeding and boarding the pup. Personally I would hand the breeder back the KC reg and take this has a lesson well learned. Look (research) before you leap.

Lube

I think you have to put this down to experience - or perhaps lack of experience! - and learn from it. Holding the breeder to ransom over the KC papers can only make a bad situation worse and nobody is going to gain from it. In legal terms, whilst you had offer, consideration and acceptance, you returned the goods and accepted that your "consideration" wasn't going to be refunded at the time. To drag this out any longer will make what was a sad situation into a desperate and materialistic one!