A friend called me this evening - very upset.  Her daughter & fiance have got their wedding arranged for later in the year - booked the reception and they are having a big white wedding in church - booked over a year ago.   However, they have now been told that they must be baptised before the wedding can go ahead - and that they have to go to classes first, and if the vicar doesn't think that their hearts are in it - that they are just going through the motions in order to get married in a pretty church - then it won't go ahead.

Friend is highly indignant about this - having to go through all this palaver - I asked why - if it is just such a palaver - why are they bothering to go to church, to make vows in the presence of a God they don't believe in?   She says - well - they should be able to - because they went to school there - and that she (mum) pays rates there!  I pointed out that the church doesn't receive her rates!

I'm afraid I've upset her - she thought I'd agree with her :(

You just have to tell it as it is, Margot :) She obviously has a strange view of what marriage in church is all about :(

I wouldn't worry about upsetting her - I upset people all the time ;) :(

Daisy

Don't worry Margot, if she is your true friend, she won't get upset just because you don't see eye to eye!  She may even think about what you have said and come around to your way of thinking!  :)

My daughter got married in the hotel where the reception was being held, by the minister of her local church, this was so much easier and did save quite a bit of money on transport for guests etc.  Why dont you suggest that they look into this idea, the hotel was really beautifully decorated with flowers etc.   Just an idea for anyone else thinking of getting married.

This has already been suggested ..... but "they want the church":rolleyes:

seems a bit silly to get married in a church if you arent religious

Not that I've met anybody but my parents want me to get married in a church.  I don't believe in religion or should I say some of things entailed with religion.  My mum's really upset that I don't want to get married in a church.  I actually do many of the values that the Christian church believes in but only for my own dignity, nothing to do with religion.

When a friend of mine divorced, can't go into the reasons due to legalities etc.  I was dismayed that due to no fault of his own only because he ended up being divorced (again through no fault of his own and divorce was the only thing he could do in his situation) when he met someone else a few years later who had never been married they weren't allowed to marry in church.

Sorry for those of you that are religious but there are some areas of the church that I don't agree with and in many ways I also would love to get married in a church but know that due to my beliefs that if the time comes and if I don't have different views by then I won't be able to.

I too was gonna go thro a church but they have all their newlyweds attend some sort of counceling out of town for a week to see if this is what you really want, wouldn't be getting married if this was not what I/we wanted. Plus told $200 for church and the same for the hall, well we couldn't just get up and leave to attend this thing with 2 kids, pets and work and didn't have that kind of money either. We decided on a JP in a green house and come and go tea at our house and it was lovely. Years later had our children baptised thro the school and church and we redid our vows and was blessed in the churh after the baptismal.

My dad's parents where very religious but I myself have not attened church since I was wee lil and lived with them who have since passed on. Alot of our family goes to church x-mas eve and well I look at it since I do not go everyday why go only once a year, just because you do not go to church does not mean you do not believe in god... I would get mad when my kid's school would call to have money donated to the church every year with out fail, if I am gonna donate I will I don't need a phone call plus I don't go to church.

I've been married for 25 years and if experience and observation over that time has taught me anything it is that too many young couples focus too heavily on the wedding day with little thought of beyond that.  I am not religious but do believe that any form of 'counselling' into what marriage actually means can be no bad thing and wish that there was more emphasis on the meaning of commitment.

I think that depends, as for us it wasn't something we could just get up and leave being young parents with lil ones isn't something we could just do, not to mention afford a sitter and councelling also didn't interest us at all....
We have been married now going on 11 years and we always believe a marriage is something you work at everyday it doesn't stop just because ur married, and communication is a main key in a marriage. We never go to bed angry, never leave the house angry and always talk our problems out of course after other half has cooled down lol and has had time to think with out me buggin --- well Iam female :D lol We believe marriage is forever and if there is any doubt then you shouldn't get married especially if children are involved thats devestating for them and I don't believe people should just get married or stay together because of children either.

'counselling' comes in many forms both formally and informally.  Parents can counsel their children so doesn't have to be church.  Also schools are also in a good positon to counsel :)

Hi Margot,

sometimes being a friend means having to upset someone - a true friend doesn't only tell you what you want to hear ;)  You've done the right thing by being honest, forthright and explaining your reasons too.

She may not agree with you on it but a good friend will not disrespect you for telling it like it is!

best wishes, Teri

I agree with you one hundred percent Margot! I had a similar conversation with some of the girls at chool. Quite a few told me they were not religious but wanted to get married in Church and when I asked why, they ALL said because it is what is done!!

I totally agree that a non-believer should not be married in a church but I must say I find this particular vicar's approach rather disturbing.  Adult baptism is an outward sign of an inner belief - obviously you cannot make someone believe in something.
Going to classes would certainly help you to understand the theory of it all but I can't see how any vicar could 'test' a couple on whether they believe it in their hearts.

I had the same disagreement with a friend who wanted to get her baby christened. She lives in the same town as me but had wanted her daughter christened in the same village church where she was bought up.
She phoned to ask me what our local vicar was like. Towards the end of the conversation she said "That's good, he sounds nice. The one we've been talking to wants us to take her along to some church services beforehand and do some classes. We don't want all that rubbish - we just want her christened".

Val

Aaah, I am going to disagree slightly here :) IMO the christening is giving the child the option of following religious beliefs in the future themselves.... I don't think the parents should be blackmailed into going to church in order to give the child that start in life if they have chosen not to follow that path.

Why Christen a child if you don't hold the Christian beliefs?  Christening a child does not give the child any options at all, in fact if they decide they want to change from CofE to become Catholic or Muslim it may just cause conflict and confusion within the child IMO.  I think people Christen children for one of two reasons, 1) the parents sincerely believe in Christening and what it means or 2) it's the done thing and the family expects it followed by the party after

I can only speak on my experience. I was christened and went to church when I was younger. I occasionally go now but I am not a strong church goer. I consider myself to be a christian and I wanted to give my children the option of following that faith - which they have done. They go to CofE schools and attend church. What they choose to do when they grow up is their decision, but I feel I have given the the option now. We talked to the vicar about it before we christened our daughter - took me till she was 2 before I decided! - and I feel we did the right thing because we gave her a start.

It seems to me that once you have Christened a child or started taking them to relgious services regardless of the said religion you have made the choice for them.  There doesn't appear to be a great number of people who swap religions once the choice has been made for them, why is that?

I was Christened as Church of England at the age of 6 months .....and I went through the RCIA classes and became Catholic when I was 40 ;)

CherylS a Catholic (either Anglo, Roman or Greek) IS a "Christian".

ALL children have options, to either pursue the faith into which they were introduced via various rites during their youth or to convert to another religion, EVERYONE has choices.  Being christened/baptised is no more or less likely to cause conflict than NOT being christened or baptised IMHO.

Also IME people only change religions if they feel strongly about theirs or another, those that do not practise their faith generally do have any belief to alter.

Sorry my post isn't clear, I do know that Catholics and C of E are both Christians.  OH baptised and brought up practising Catholic and I was Christened C of E. :)

BTW I have nothing against any religion per se although it might seem that way from some of my posts.  I actually think it must be very comforting to have a faith and would never 'knock' it.

>ALL children have options, to either pursue the faith into which they were introduced via various rites during their youth or to convert to another religion

Do Muslim children have this option when they reach adulthood? I thought in Islam the penalty for apostacy was death. Is there an age when the option to convert is open to them?

I know of three muslims who have converted to Christianity in adulthood, none of them have been killed as a result of their apostasy. :)

Just as there are differing sects/branches of Christianity and Judaism, so is there in Islam.

Just as there are varying degrees of orthodoxy in all three, and how it is practised...........

That's good to know - thanks! :)

LOL The old Testament was written in a time when women were usually viewed as chattels & pig meat was forbidden because it didn't keep in hot climates !(ever wondered why Muslims & Jews don't eat it ?)

As we are now in the 21st Century & know that the world wasn't created in 7 days(sorry to disillusion anyone)things like the ending of relationships etc is a reality. Women now have more opportunities(although still not the same as men)but some religions(or forms of them)have moved on & others  haven't. ;) Odd isn't it that only men used to be orthodox Rabbis, yet now some of the most orthodox of Rabbis are women !

Jesus is also revered by true Islamic followers as well

I think it needs to be said though, Tohme, that not ALL Catholics (Anglo, Roman or Greek) are Christians. There are many who conscientiously observe all the rituals and attend all the services but have not accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour. 

That can be said of all denominations and I suspect other faiths as well.

Steve

But, Chloe, a child can choose to follow a belief regardless of whether he or she has been christened. 
Many christenings these days are more like naming ceremonies - although promises are made by parents and Godparents to bring the child up within the Christian faith, I suspect the reality is somewhat different :)

Like I said - In My Opinion :) Thats how I see it after having a long chat with the vicar prior to my first child being christened. What he said made a lot of sense to me and I have stuck with it :)

My objection was that my friend just wanted the 'do'. If her and her husband thought it was "rubbish" that the vicar wanted to talk to them, then why have her Christened ?. He wasn't blackmailing them, he wanted to do the right thing for their daughter. They just wanted a party.

I understand tyby that your beliefs conflict with the vicar's because of your disagreement in allowing non-believers in marrying in church.  However, I think that maybe the vicar is being forward thinking and trying to hook young people into the church.  What better way to enlighten young people who have no obvious religious background or guidance into what a wedding actually means, into the sanctity of marriage?

I have no real issue with the vicar wanting them to come to classes, even refusing to marry non-believers in Church (although I personally think it would be wrong).  My big concern with this (as a Christian) is his insistence that they be baptised.  Adult baptism is for believers only and as such is not something that should be taken lightly, it is not and never has been a prerequiste to being married.

The classes are fairly common now and I think are a good thing.

Steve

I totally disagree!

I have dreamt of a big white wedding ever since I was little. I dont go to church and my OH is the biggest non believer you will ever find but I want to get married in a chuch. I dont think this is wrong. Everyone is entitled to get married where they like. Getting married in a church doesnt have to be about god, it can be about the ceremony. Personally, I think civil weddings dont last as long as church ones and dont carry the 'realness' that church weddings do so I will get married in a church even though Im not religeous.

>Getting married in a church doesnt have to be about god

Erm - I'm puzzled as to what you think churches are all about, if it isn't God? Libraries are about books, art galleries are about paintings and churches are about religion.

I guess what you have to understand..and not nesc. what you have to accept, is that for some people today aesthetics are more important than content.
  Not my personal opinion, but I can see in this country it is a majority that do that (otherwise..look around you on sunday,the congregation would be vast but marriages arnt declining so where is everyone!!)
   there are after all some people who go to Museums (V&A and natural History being lovely examples) not for the content nesc. but the atmosphere, and the architecture :)

Erm - I'm puzzled as to what you think churches are all about, if it isn't God?

I'm going to REALLY stick my neck out now and I VERY MUCH apologise of I offend anyone as that is NOT my intention. I'm not religious and a lot of the time I find religious people offensive. I don't at all mind what people believe on or what they do in their own privacy or with like minded people (for instance my mother in law is very religious but she NEVER mentions her views unless asked), and I definitely take the point as learnt HERE about not taking God's name in wain ec, since reading that here I have made a point to always think about what I say, but  when they come knocking at your door trying to MAKE you start reading the Bible etc (as happens here at least once a month) then I do take great offence. I believe what I want to believe and not what others want to MAKE me believe.I believe in God but maybe not in the way religious people do. I did get married in church the first time I got married -and that was to a husband who had been divorced, AND we were married by a woman vicar LONG before there even WERE any here in the UK. (It was in Sweden.)

I didn't have any of my children christened as I didn't like the idea of it and saw no reason. However aged 10, my middle daughter wanted to get baptised. It was her own idea. I THOUGHT. I went along because she wanted me there. She doesn't live with me, she lives with her dad, and it was a family friend that had started taking her and her younger brother to church when she babysat.

I was APPALLED! I felt so mad at what I saw and heard that had I been able to without upsetting my daughter, I would have left that church. As it was at least I was able to refuse to take part when the words were being said etc as I very much disagreed with them.

What was I appalled at? The way it was all being done. I discovered WHY my children suddenly wanted to go to church. The children that came along were all given CHOCOLATE as an incentive, loads of it. There was a table FULL of it.  When I finally questioned my 5 year old a bit, I found out the only reason for why he liked going to church was that they got lots of sweets and sometimes presents. When I questioned my 10 year old, I was told she wanted to be baptised because they had been told (IN CHURCH!!) they would get lots of presents from their family if they did!!! And when you agreed to do it, a lady from church would come to your house and PLAY GAMES with you!
This all seemed to me little more than brain washing like some religious sects do.......... My 13 year old saw through it at once and always refused to go.

So I do wonder, is churches always about God even with the  religious people, or is it about bums on seats?!

Just to say, Goldmali, that people often make the mistake of confusing Christians with 'religious' people.  A lot of people regard church-going as a pleasant social activity were they meet like minded friends - a bit like going to a British Legion club or a Mother & Toddlers Group. But because of their church links they're labelled 'religious'.
Being a Christian is totally different - it's all about believing in Christ, His sacrifice on the cross and the promise of eternal life.

Co-ercing anyone into any religion is wrong - I grew up through "new fad" sects etc having risen from goodness knows where and with reported "cult followings" so was always wary of anyone who either leafleted on streets or came knocking on doors to preach their particular ideal of what was for the "greater good" ;)  and I certainly don't think anyone would condone your description of children being promised sweets and presents - IMO that is morally wrong.

When my daughter made her First Communion and some years later was Confirmed, Priests from our own and a neighbouring parish went to great lengths to do the exact opposite of what you describe - being very firm with parents that no association with gifts, money, elaborate parties etc should ever be made to the children as this would remove the concentration of the importance of the *sacraments they were receiving*     A considerable number of years later I know that is still the case with those two parishes and also that of my sister's.

There are those who are more sincere than others in all walks of life - religion being one of them :)

regards, Teri

The church is definatley after 'bums on seats' - who can blame them. What was, many years ago, a day of worship and family etc has just become another day - used mostly for shopping. I'm not against it - but that's what has happened and the church is trying to fight back.
Bribery, with chocolate, does seem extreme !. Most churches I've been to have a creche facility with stories and games which the children enjoy - even without chocolate !.
At about the age of 10 I decided that I wanted to be confirmed and believe me, the weeks of after school classes weren't easy. The presents.......a new bible and prayer book....just what I'd expected.
If your child really wants to be baptised then tell her what gifts she should expect to receive.....that should tell you if it's something she really wants to do !.

Val

Actually, the benefits of baptism are that your sins are *washed away* ;)

It would take alot of holy water to wash all my sins away ;)

What was I appalled at? The way it was all being done. I discovered WHY my children suddenly wanted to go to church. The children that came along were all given CHOCOLATE as an incentive, loads of it. There was a table FULL of it.  When I finally questioned my 5 year old a bit, I found out the only reason for why he liked going to church was that they got lots of sweets and sometimes presents.

Goldmali, I am a Christian and a youth leader at my Church and I have to say I agree with you completely bribing children in this way is wrong and would make me wonder at the motives here.  Being a Christian is about finding a personal faith not bribing people to come to church.

The youth groups at our church provide a mixture of Christian / social teaching and social events, for example I'm doing a session tomorrow night on justice in which we will discuss things like global warming, poverty, repression, racism etc etc (it all kind of depends where the kids want to go).  We do not pressure children to become Christians as we believe that faith is a personal thing and the kids have to decide for themselves where they want to go.  We see the youth groups (especially the one I and my OH run) as a place where the kids can learn about Christianity but also a place where they can have fun and discuss issues relevant to them and a place where they know someone will listen to them is they have any problems.

BTW we attend a normal Baptist church no dodgy cult things round here :D

Steve

Now what you do makes SENSE Steve, and I'd have been very happy for my kids to attend something like that. I was very happy that my daughter had made her own mind up as to wanting to attend church, getting baptised etc -then when I saw what actually went on it felt awful.

The vows you make in church are in God's name. If you don't believe in the words you will be saying then they will mean nothing at all - what's the point in lying ?.
You can have a 'big white wedding' without saying things you don't believe.

Val

If I said those words on a football pitch they could still be classed as saying them to god because thats what marriages are about. You dont have to believe in god to get married in a chuch. And I wouldnt feel like a hypocrit!

A church is a place for Christian worship. A football pitch is a place for football. Yes, I know lots of people think some footballers are 'gods' - but there is a difference.

>You dont have to believe in god to get married in a chuch

Not according to any vicars, ministers, priests I've ever heard of    The alternative is to lie to them - not exactly the correct footing for swearing a vow of love and fidelity to a partner, regardless of religious beliefs :rolleyes:   In any event the sacrament of matrimony IS sworn before God in religious ceremonies (and He's had more than a mention in what few civil ceremonies I've attended too) - ergo doing so in a church as a non-believer is hypocritical!

regards, Teri

Would you get married in a Hindu temple? If not, why not?

I was thinking Hindu.  The brides have their hands and feet decorated in henna and I think they look fabulous but we can't pick the religious ceremony to fit the day and that includes Christianity too.  Going to risk getting head bitten off now because I think my views on religion are quite clear but I did get married in a church but at a time when I was a believer though.  If I had felt about religion then the way I do now I would still want to be married but I would choose a neutral location if possible (defo not church but not Reg Off either). My kiwi friend got married in her parents' beautiful garden in NZ. 

It is hypocritical to marry in church if you do not believe and makes a bit of a mockery of the whole ceremony IMO.  When I got married I saw the vows as being made in the eyes of God.  To me this made the vows concrete and I felt I was commiting myself wholeheartedly, why else would you want to be married in church unless for the bling bling thing? That makes the ceremony tacky.