I just wondered if people always think that it is always the shown dog/bitch that always produce the best puppies. or Do you know of a  unshown  that that sire's top quality puppies. Present time or in the past.

yes the people who bred him didnt want to show him but he was of show quality. I always just think its better using a show stud if you want a possibility of show quality pups

I personally have bred a Champion by a dog that has never ever been shown, he was of exactly the bloodlines I wanted and I was the first one to use him.  In total he has been used 3 times.

He bred my Champion in one litter and in another litter bred a RCC winner, who is still competing.

If you see the dog of being of sufficient quality and he suits your bitch then I see no reason to discount a Stud Dog just because it has never been shown.

Many of the top kennels have bred champions from dogs that they wouldn't allow to be seen at a show, but they know their lines and what's behind them!

I think that there's a BIG difference Lady Daz between people who have been involved in their breed for years, know their blood lines and are sincerely able to assess the quality of an unshown dog and his ancestors because they know them, and a person who doesn't show, doesn't feel the need to show, doesn't have the knowledge and experience but still produces puppies from unshown pet dogs!

Totally agree with you Val, was thinking more on those lines I suppose, rather than from the point of view of anyone that has not researched pedigrees.

Plus of course what i forgot to mention was that the bitch, that the Champion came out of was a RCC winner herself, so was a very good quality bitch.

I was just answering the question as asked :-( Slaps her own wrists :-D

:)

Hi,
It doesn't have to be a show dog, to produce show pups. Also show dogs don't always
produce show pups.
The show dog can have a brother that has never been shown, that is as good.
The pups will  have the same Generation Pedigree.
Also probly will be a lot cheaper stud!!
Regards
Denese

Yes, I've used a dog that was never shown but was nevertheless top stud in his breed for three years, although he was only lightly used.

there is a difference also (imo) in a dog that has never done anything in the ring because ithasent been shown & one that hasent done anything in the ring that has been shown

yes we bought a dog of course it parents had been show winners but mated with my bitchwhos  parents were show winners both had good hip scores but we never show ours we had lovely puppies sold before they were born by ppl who had seen us out and about with dogs

It all depends on why the dog hasnt been shown. Ina  breed where size is v important there are lots of excellent but big males never shown, but who can produce, as long as care is taken not to double up on the fault that stopped it being shown. Or of course a super dog might have been sold to a pet home because there were no 'show' homes available, but the breeder kept him in mind for stud work.

I know of a kennel that had a dog that they only showed once under each different judge, it got placed at the top every time and it held the breed record, and it produced a crufts supreme champion.  The type within the ring changed to one that the owner did not feel fitted their breed standard, and so they continued to breed but no longer show.  Their breeding plans have not changed from the one they followed to produce this high winning dog.

I also know that some breeders will not have the results that their dogs deserve, because of who they are or because they are of the incorrect type.  But many of their dogs have valuable qualities that could be lost within their breeds if they were not bred.

I have also been told by a 'breeder of the year' that the best males within their breed are not produced by the show females, but by the ones that are often too big for the show ring.

I would prefer to buy a puppy from someone that knew their standard inside out, and who was breeding in an attempt to get closer to their breed standard (whilst maintaining that the animals that they bred from where free from inherited disorders, and of the best temperament), than someone who just bred for pedigrees full of red. 

It has taken time for me to learn this, and when scanning puppy adds I am often guilty at getting excited at reading about a certain cross only to look at the pedigree and think well I don't think that they will turn out as nice as I first thought.:rolleyes:

I would also just like to add I know of several dogs that produce very nicely (e.g. JW winning pups), who themselves did not do well in the show ring, and their stud fees are anything but cheep ;-)

whats a crufts supreme champion ?

it is a dog that gets best in show at crufts .... well that is what it is called in a handbook I have

A name thought up by Pedigree Chum & the Best in Show in the conformation side of Crufts is just that BIS Not a supreme champion

There is only one Crufts Championships & that is the Obedience competition. Every dog that wins either the dog or bitch Obedience Championships is a champion at the end of the competion even if they have only ever won one Obedience Championship Certificate before Crufts as The Crufts Championship is worth two Ob CCs. The only time this would not happen is if none of the dogs came within the qualifying marks(285 out of 300)

Dogs have been BIS at Crufts & never become champions BTW

opps sorry about that :rolleyes:

It just goes to show you really can't believe everything you read sometimes :-)

It could easily not even be a champion if it was winning it's first CC at Crufts, or was from a breed that does not have CC's.

That's true Barbara & of course there was the dog that won it one & only CC at Crufts & was retired after going BIS

Which dog was that.

I rather think I would have at least shown the dog to it's title.

I once asked a lady who had a sibling of a best in show winner whether or not the other owner might continue to show the said dog, and she said that once you have got to the top there is no where else to go, and what is the point in putting your dog in a position where it could get beat, when you could end on such a high note.

Anyway they were her words, it would be interesting to read what everybody else thinks :-)

Just checked I think he won two CC's One at the show he qualified at & the one At Crufts so it was two Doh senior moment It was Bergerie Knur ! I should have known it was two as he was BOB at Working breeds the year before                   

I was pretty sure that the dog that won Crufts was a CH so I have just gone and had a look in my books .....

The dog that won Crufts was a CH, and he won 9 CC's.
The dog that sired him also sired 13 CC winning progeny / 11 champions (73 CC's between the siblings) in 4 years. 
He was the great great grandfather of another CH (6 CC's) who also won Crufts.  Who himself was the father of the last dog to win the group in crufts (he won it 3 times, was a CH, and won 35 C. C's , and he was also a breed record holder, and he took this record from this lady's original dog), and who also sired 8 champion progeny.
I also think that he was behind the only other dog within this breed to win crufts, but I am unsure as to how far back this is. These are the only dogs within this breed to win crufts.

Overall a pretty impressive record :-), and I would be as proud as punch if I had bred such a successful dog (goes off into a daydream lol)

... and just to add the icing on the cake the ladys dog was an OB. CH too, and it could have been a WT CH, but she was too soft to let it go and live with the person who really wanted to enter it for this.

I think he also sired some very well awarded dogs in these other fields as well :-)

... and he was an INT CH ..... and I think that she said he may still hold the record for winning best in show at all breeds CH shows gulp :-)

as I thought moonmaiden - had to check though ;)

His breeder closed her kennels three years later & her dogs were dispersed around the Pyremeam people & he was never shown again after Crufts He was a very stunning dog & produced some nice puppies

My last litter of beardies only had two dogs that were shown in it & the stud dog was very unfashionable but very true to the breed standard &close up to the bothkennars He was out of one of the best every bitchs &he corrected the faults my bitch had. Got all the colours except tri

My last litter of beardies only had two dogs that were shown in it & the stud dog was very unfashionable but very true to the breed standard &close up to the bothkennars He was out of one of the best every bitchs &he corrected the faults my bitch had. Got all the colours except tri

But this just goes to show the difference between someone who knows the lines that they are dealing with and the converse argument of using an unshown dog 'because it has the same pedigree as his shown brother':rolleyes: / I bought him from a well bred litter (he could still be rubbish!) to mate to my bitch / I don't want to show my dogs and all the pet owners are pleased with their puppies that I sold them / I know that my dogs are good because the man down the road says they are!'

I think its not just the dog you are going to use, but look at the dogs in the generations of the pedigree, if their are good dogs there too, the chances are you will produce good dogs.  But if you use a dog which is wonderful but whats behind is not so good then you may not get great pups. Always look at what is behind.

LOL Timmy was show as a puppy but not having the long straight coat etc that was fashionable he never did very much, his strength laid in his ability to produce puppies of the correct type & his breeding suited my bitch.

I know someone who is buying in her own stud dog because she is sick of paying stud fees :rolleyes: Now she has two breeding bitches & her mate has one so after three more litters from each of her bitches & 4 from her mates(they breed on each season & KC reg the puppies ) they'll have to buy in another one in a couple of years unless they are going to breed father to daughter. All the bitches are litter sisters! She doesn't show or do any health tests & charges £500 plus to the unsuspecting pet owners

Typical puppy producers eh?? :rolleyes:  I feel so sorry for the families buying puppies from people like this...........

I think it all depends on why they weren't shown - some dogs just hate it. I don't think there's a breeder out there who's sold a puppy to a pet home, only to be pig sick they didn't keep them when they see him/her as an adult.

I think the top shar-pei stud dog of all time in the UK was only shown several times. He was imported as a puppy and didn't really take to showing. I could be wrong, but I think he was only shown 3 times, getting two BOS and a BP. He's the sire of 4 champions and grandsire to 8 (I think?) out of about 15 champions and they only got CC status in 1999. He also has a few Irish & American champion offspring, as does his litter sister who equally didn't like the showring herself.

There are breeders out there who have sold to a pet home to see them again as an adult and wished they'd kept it, me being one of them with two Pomeranian's :d

I've just re-read what I wrote and what I wrote seems to say the opposite of what I meant to say - he-he! What I meant to say is what perrdeagua said. :) I've known several friends utter the immortal phrase "I kept the wrong one" when faced with some dogs they've bred that were sold as purely pets.

Ah but Phoebe, if you read the other arguement, you might as well use the poorer brother that you (may) have kept because after all, he's carrying the same genes and can therefore produce pups as good as his better quality brother!!!  Not! :rolleyes:

Look at my friend as a case of that Phoebe - I've been teasing her 3 1/2 years now about selling me the best thing she bred in 20 years! :-)

Going back to the original question though, in Cavaliers and possibly other toy breeds, the best show bitches often don't make good brood bitches as the show ones are often small and fine and toy-like and can have trouble whelping, whereas the good brood bitches that whelp easily are a bit larger and chunkier which some judges don't like. And of course as they tend to drop their coats after seasons and puppies, it can be hard to make a bitch up in a coated breed as well as letting her have puppies!

There was a truly awful dog in our breed who was used a number of times by people who didn't know any better. The owner just told them who his litter brother was (most successful dog ever in the ring & as a stud), so they used him and he never produced anything memorable.

If the owners of the bitches didn't know any better were there dogs of a standard also?  If not then you can't blame the stud dog.  I've known many a toy breed brood who wouldn't have got anywhere in the show ring put to the correct male and produce some wonderful dogs.

No, you can't blame the stud dog - but you can blame the breeder (& stud dog owner) for breeding without enough knowledge to know that that particular mating is very unlikely to produce anything worthwhile (nothing, of course, is certain when breeding ...... )