Don't want to offend any Border Collie people on here but I do have a genuine question to ask.
Why is it Border Collies nip other dogs and the owners or other Border Collie people just say don't worry its just the Border Collie Nip.  One nipped my girl when she was standing beside me.  She stuck her nose forward a little to get a scent of this dog with her tongue lolling out as normal and the BC sprang forward and nipped her tongue making it bleed. Owner just laughed saying not to take any notice its just a BC nip, while she stood there after yelping with blood dripping from her mouth.
My friends dog got its ear pierced by another BC and was told the same thing and at the 2 dog clubs I have been to the BC think nothing of nipping the other dogs as they go past or get near them often making them yelp.  Its all dismissed by the clubs as being normal. If a dog retaliates when got by one then the BC owners all tut tut saying the poor victim was in the wrong not the BC who instigated it.
Sorry I can't see this and i think the owners should not allow it and have more concern for other peoples dogs.  If my JR or Rottie x GSD was to do the same they would be labelled dangerous by other dog owners and frowned upon. Mine luckily are daft as brushes and wouldn't retaliate under these circumstances or be the first to have a nip.  Surely it should be the same rule for all though.
I would be interested to hear other peoples views on it and other BC owners to see how they view the subject.

Bev

No responsible owner should allow this behaviour no matter what the breed/size etc it is not excusable.

However having said that, it the owner's responsibility not to allow their dog to invade the space of anothers.........

Hi Bev.

I own 2 BCs and i would like to say i would be absolutely mortified/embarassed if either of them drew blood.
Both my girls are treated the same, and both socialise daily with other dogs, but i have to admit that my oldest will fly if another dog gets in her face, she has the BC eyeball down to a fine art, so just have to be vigilant. To be honest she is less likely to fly when off her lead, she just chooses who she wants to mix with!.

Drawing blood or not why do many see it ok for a BC to behave like this and not other breeds.
Often it is the BC off the lead who comes up to say hello to another dogs owner and while there nips at the other dogs or in the stays at club if one dog gets up a BC even a few dogs away will leap up and go after the one that moved.  Makes me nervous about doing stays off lead i can tell you.

Bev

Bev.
I do think you have been unlucky and the breed happens to be border collies.
I am not precious over this breed as I love a lot of other breeds too. This is just the one I chose to have. However I do believe that it is not the actual breed that is the problem but the attitude of the owners. This i have found with people with bc's but also with many other breeds as well.

I own 3 BC's and 2 working sheepdogs and I would not tolerate any of them nipping other dogs without provocation.

I have border collies and I understand what you are saying to a point. Borders do have that nipping thing going on. One of mine does it but only in excitement with me when we're doing agility. I do come down on her though and it ****** hurts.
In terms of nipping if a dog comes up then I feel it isn't just a bc but a general dog thing.
I was sitting there one day at a show with my bc in between my legs quite happily being stroked by myself. Another dog came along, albeit in a friendly manner wanting to say hello. The owner was looking the other way and chatting. My youngster growled and nipped at him. The owner turned and made a comment to ME to control my dog. Excuse me but who was invading whose space? That dogs nose was straight in my dogs face and my youngster had nowhere to go, the owner wasn't watching. Now anyone that knows me, knows I am not precious about my dogs. If they're in the wrong, they're in the wrong. But imagine if you're in a corner and I come up to you, my face an inch away from yours and I don't give you anywhere to go. What are you going to do?
I do understand where you are coming from a bc or a different breed. Nipping for no reason is unnaceptable like Tohme says but you also said yourself your dog invaded that dogs space and paid the price for it.

I agree. It's accepted Humans don't have to like everyone, so why not dogs!

It is a cardinal sin for a sheep working BC to nip & is not acceptance for any BC to nip. My puppy was with his mum until he was 13 weeks old & she obviously taught him bite inhibition as he has never offered to mouth or bite or nip

Nipping(other than during puppy nipping)should not be tolerated from any dog from a Yorkshire Terrier to a Great Dane & TBH small dogs are much more likely to nip that a bigger dog as they get older IMHO(formed after 40+ years of training other people's dogs)

I think you summed it up moonmaiden :)

Kernahan
Is it you that has that lovely bitch out at the moment. Wish upon a star.

Yes it is.  Thankyou, i think she is lovely too. We only started this "showing lark" late last year and she has been an absolute dream.

its called a nip reflex, it is to move on stubborn sheep. But no i dont allow my dogs to do it. Ever. the same way i dont allow them to herd things like bikes etc.

i will just add here,that my nellie does snap at other dogs. However it is always the dogs that are leaping around in her face,demanding her attention & toytally ignoring her body language,she keeps trying to move away,to hide behind my legs, curls her lip. If these dogs still carry on leaping around she WILL have a snap. shes never caught anything & i wont tell her off for this.

It's nor encouraged though Mish even in the sheep working world as sheep skin is easily damaged even if the dog only grips  the fleece.

I went to our local  recycling tip recently & some of  the sheep from one of the adjacent fields had got through the fencing & were craftily trying to sneak out to were there was some fresh grazing along the river edge. Rjj was transfixed in the back of the car  so I whipped him out on a flexi lead & he was straight into sheep mode looking like a snake ! The ewes bunched up behind the leader who was stamping her feet at him LOL he raised up his bum & crept one half pace forward & she back off trotting back to the gap in the fence through the gates to what was the old tip which has now been reclaimed & grassed LOL I got a thanx of the guys there as it usually takes ages to persuade them back. using boards LOL I told them there was no charge this time :D

One of the guys asked me why he hadn't gone into the sheep like the owners dog did(sounds like he grips them) LOL Told him it was cornish eye power(or maybe he knows the Babe rhyme LOLOLOL)

not the "gripping", but some will snap wont they to move the sheep on?(not nessercarily making contact) depends on the eye & the stubborness of the sheep i suppose

I was discussing this on another site with some peeps who rescue border collies. They are concerned that many people don't understand the bC nip and worried that sometimes it is suggested the BC is put to sleep because of this, as it's not the same as biting (ie it's not aggressive in intent as such).

It's important to not use it as an excuse -anyone who says "oh it's just the BC nip" after their dog has hurt another dog should look again at their right to own that BC in my opinion :)

Lindsay
x

Moonmaiden says :"It is a cardinal sin for a sheep working BC to nip & is not acceptance for any BC to nip."

Actually, thats not true.  A dog that won't grip livestock when needed can be almost useless. The whole purpose of a dog gripping livestock is to show authority over them, not to harm the animal. Most livestock will test a dog at one time or another by refusing to move or even charging. If the dog will not meet the challenge with force, the stock will soon lose respect for the dog. However, there is a time and place for everything. A dog gripping at the wrong time or in the wrong situation can be very counter productive. It can cause stock to panic and scatter, or it can even make them more determined to stand their ground.

There is also a correct way of gripping. The right way is for a dog to approach the animal calmly and with authority, giving it a chance to move without biting. But when it fails to move, the dog should snap at the nose (when it is facing them), or low on the hock (when it is facing away). The grip shouldn't be too hard and it should turn loose immediately without hanging on.

My dogs however, distinguish easily between livestock and humans with delicate skin *grin* There is a big difference between natural grip/nipping behaviour and aggression in the border collie.

colliecrew
xx

My dog didn't invade the space of the one that bit her tongue she never moved from where she was originally standing just lifted her head and sniffed the air to get a scent of the new dog, there was still several feet between them. The BC lunged forward at her invading her space and nipping her tongue.
Bev

i would say, that was not a collie nip reflex,bevb. that was a aggy dog

hope your dog was alright BTW.

A dog that won't grip livestock when needed can be almost useless

Actually all the shepherd's I know & it a good few would not consider a dog useless if they did not grip sheep & it is not they only way a dog can show authority over stock. I know my friends ACD nip & grip his heifers & cows & yet in the same situation my the six month old puppy who had never seen heifers before moved them without gripping. I know his father is an awesomely powerful working dog & his mother is also a good worker. So my puppy is useless because he doesn't grip ?

It is a disqualifying act at all sheepdog trials so why is it an essential in a working dog then ? After all the sheep get very dog wise at trials(tell me about it)& some breeds are exceptionally challenging(especially some of the rare more primitive breeds)My first male BC was used on a local rare breeds farm that had sheep that had never been dogged yet Glen never resorted to biting the sheep. Not down to me as the handler but his inbred power & working ability, but in your eyes he was a useless dog !

Just come off the phone from a friend who runs a small flock(currently 500+) asked him how often his dogs had to grip(dogs have similar lines to my puppy) after a sharp in take of breath from him Never was the reply & he added if you have difficult stock you need a powerful correctly trained dog.

Working farm sheepdogs and trialling dogs are two seperate entities. What makes a good trial dog does not necessarily mean it will make a good farm dog. In trials, you are never faced with a ewe with a lamb by her side to protect. In trials you are not faced with a ram, which can be very dangerous to a dog...etc etc
However, just to clarify. Gripping in trials does not mean instant disqualification. If the judge feels that the sheep has been particularly stubborn and awkward it is acceptable for the dog to display controlled gripping.
You are of course correct that there are different methods for a dog to move sheep. Eye being the main one. Stance, a well-placed bark (although repeated barking is a nightmare) to name but a few.
When working sheep, the fact remains, that there is times a dog must be willing to show authority and grip.
Now, working cattle is another matter entirely. Never in my life would I allow a 6 month pup near cattle. Most cows will challenge a dog at least at first.  Some cows will challenge a dog even after having learned that the dog will grip, just to make sure.  A few cows will go out of their way to kill a dog. Out of my 6 current working sheep dogs, only one would be permitted to work cattle.
Sheep that have not been dogged are actually the easiest to move, not the most difficult. It is once sheep have been repeatedly dogged, perhaps even used to train young dogs that the natural fear and desire to move away becomes lessened.
Anyway, you seem to have deeply personalised the initial statement I made and I do apologise for any offence that it may caused.
Its interesting your friend with over 500 sheep has never had a situation whereby his dogs have had to show authority over livestock. In 35 years, working with some of the great names in trialling, I have never known this to be the case.

Yes, our farm collies would nip, grip or snap at times to control and move cattle if their authority was challenged.  I remember one dog (who was our best working dog BTW ) challenge a bull that had knocked my father onto the ground and turned to charge him.  The dog saved his life.

I always thought it was a usual trait in a working farm collie if and when needed. 

Working farm sheepdogs and trialling dogs are two seperate entities.

Tell that you my friends who trial successfully their working dogs Rather a sweeping & inaccurate statement, most of they couldn't afford the luxury of running two types of  bloodlines Not all trialist have loads of money & time to have dogs that work & dogs that only trial. Derek's Ben comes to mine a extremely successful trialling dog who is also a working hilldog obviously a one off IYO

My puppy was in no danger from the heifers & what feel is safe & what I feel is safe obvious differs.

Have you trailled your dogs & had them grip ? I cannot think of any trial I've been to including nusrery & novice that dogs have not been whisted off after gripping

My first BC a tiny bitch regularly worked stud rams & never had to grip & I'm not talking last week but over 30 years ago

Do you have rare breeds then ?  They are notorious for their distain of dogs especially breeds like Castlemilk Moorit which has tried & beaten some excellent dogs. The Rams wear bells to ensure the shepherds know where they are to protect themselves

My friends dogs have total authority over his sheep as they are a very commerical breed & much more compliant that the "rarer"less domesticated breeds, howver his dogs are very strong eyed & he won't sell his puppies as pets Way too much drive

Unlike the more decorative breed Park Soay, the Castlemilk Moorit is a relatively docile and easily managed breed (actually easier to move them with a bucket of feed rather than a dog!:rolleyes:)
We own Cheviots (very hardy breed for the conditions in which we are based). In our contract work, we work with various other breeds but only large flocks and certainly no rare breeds.
Derek's Ben? Are you referring to Derek Scrimgeour's Ben?
Yes, I have been at trials whereby a dog who has gripped the sheep has not been disqualified and immediately asked to leave the field. Of course, the contrary applies whereby a grip/nip was deemed completely unneccessary and the handler was whistled off.
As said, a good trial dog and a good working farm dog ARE two different things. This is by no means a sweeping nor inaccurate statement nor does it say a good trial dog doesn't have its place in working a farm. We have 6 dogs and all these dogs will be utilised at different times on the farm. For example, the dog we use to work cattle on a contract basis is extremely good during lambing season when the ewes motherly instinct is strong and they therefore display greater stubborn/aggressive behaviour in an attempt to scare the dog away from their lambs. As a farmer, you tend not to have a one-dog-suits-all attitude. You will also find that most small-holding/trial dogs don't have the strength and power to work hill farms. Confidence plays a part here also where a hill dog has to think much more for themselves rather than having continual human commands.
Actually, last week I was reading an article by John Atkinson/Roy Goutte in the Working Sheepdog News. Perhaps this says it better than I can...
"In many parts of Scotland , Wales and Northern England where the quad cannot get, you still need a strong dog with plenty of stamina capable of doing a full days work. Thank goodness, for that is where most of the dogs go that are too strong for trialling. You certainly don't need a strong forceful dog to push three or four sheep around a trials course, it wouldn't get near them. It needs just enough is the saying. Trialling has become more of a competition in itself than a test for the working dog."

I have a feeling that you have a concrete view on this subject matter (as I have, I suppose lol) and we shall have to agree to disagree. I spend my days working sheep, both for our own farm, and doing contract shepherding. Have done this since a child (having grown up with a father who was a shepherd).

Oh...just one more point...you say your friend won't sell his puppies as they have way too much drive? I have a son of the great Bobby Dalziels Wisp. No drive at all! A couch potato! No guarantees no matter what breeding you use.

Good luck with your puppy's training.

Apologies to the OP on this thread as I seem to have digressed from your initial point.
Despite my dogs being working hill dogs and, on occasion showing their authority to livestock, they would never be permitted to nip at another dog (unless of course the the dog was jumping around their space acting completely inappropriately).
This sounds more of a case of aggressive behaviour and of an owner making poor excuses as to the reasons why this happened.
Border Collies, in my opinion, do NOT make the ideal house companion and can become very neurotic/bored/aggressive in the wrong hands. They require an active and stimulating household otherwise these unwanted traits will develop as a way for the poor dog to vent/occupy/amuse themselves.
Don't let the owners away with panning you off with excuses if this happens again

TBH I wouldn't want one of Wisp's puppies Never seen one working with enough drive for me. Michael has no Wisp in his lines & was never tempted to use him. BTW Roy no longer writes for WSN mores the pity

As for disqualification it's up to the judges decretion perhaps your judges allow more leniency-Interesting a certain very famous "lady"handler got whistled off at the Nattionals one year with all 3 of her dogs for gripping

My dog only worked with the stud rams os cannot comment on the ewes Maybe a bucket of feed would have been better than the bell. I do know he"damaged"a few unsuspecting people inckluding their vet many times.

I can't imagine that 'drawing blood', whatever terminology ppl wanna wrap it up with, is to be tolerated.......poor owner training. Period.