OK I'll start at the beginning. We have been looking for a new puppy to add to our family for a while but only just now after doing my "homework" started to contact breeders.

We answered an ad in our local free ads paper and went to see the puppy last night. It was the last one left from the litter, a beautiful Cavalier blenheim bitch for £400. We have saved £350 but thought for the right puppy we could stretch to £400. I was expecting to be able to view the puppy, then if we wanted it to be able to go back and collect it. (I also know that pups can cost a lot more than this but I have seen ads for anything from £295 to £650 so I thought £400 was somewhere in the middle and was as much as we can afford at the moment)

Ok so this is where the alarm bells started to ring. The pup was doglovers registered not kc reg which was fine, until the breeder said that the grand dam had several kc reg litters and couldnt register any more with kc so then she had to start registering any more litters with dog lovers. The dam came from a DL reg litter and this dams present litter was the last she could register with DL. Any more from the dam would have to be unregistered. The dam was 9yrs old so I think she may have been having a litter once a year or so. To me that seemed a lot!

She then said the pup is 8weeks old tomorrow (weds) and she wouldnt be vaccinated, we would have to get her vaccinated which is ok I suppose but having seen the adverts, most offer the 1st vaccine. I was however prepared to get her vaccinated myself.

I asked if she had started paper training and she said "well theres paper in the shed, she is in there under a heat lamp mostly, but you can get this spray... blah blah blah" Bearing in mind the only evidence of dogs in the house was the dams bed and one feeding bowl, I presume the pup has spent most of her days in the shed, and there was no paper down in the house so I am thinking that the pup was only in the house for my viewing.

She didn't give me any feeding advice, infact I had to ask her what food the pup was weaned onto and she showed me a tin of asdas own puppy food and said she mixed it with asdas dry complete. I also asked if the dam and sire had been heart tested and she said "no but the mums 9 and theres nothing wrong with her". Then I got the "well, do you want her or not because I've got others ringing me back". I said that yes I probably would but could she give me a day or two to get the money organised and get in the same food and she said "well if you want her you take her now...... she is ready to go". I did have some money with me as a deposit but she was expecting the full amount and take the pup now.

Feeling like I was being pushed into this I said well could I come back the next day when I had arranged a vet check and again I got the take her now or not at all speech. So I decided that I would leave her.

How could she be asking £400 for a dog that has not been vet checked, no vaccines, no care advice, no health checks from the parents etc. I got the impression that she was breeding her bitch just for the financial gain and not thinking of the welfare of mother and pups at all. I was quite cheeky then and offered her £340 there and then to take her (as it was all the cash machine would let me withdraw) because she was basically giving me no guarantees, support, vaccines and she was the last one left etc but she said "Im not lowering the price because if I dont sell her I'll just breed from her"

Obviously everyone will have their own opinions on this but I just didnt feel that this was the "right" puppy for us. I didnt feel the breeder was bothered about the health or welfare of her dogs at all. So I am glad that I decided not to take that pup.

I also have been in contact with a breeder whose litter is due this week and she is offering 1st vaccine, frontlined and wormed, reared in the house with both parents, puppy pack, food and she is looking into insurance. The parents have been heart checked under advice from her vet and they are both fine. She will also be trying to paper train them but obviously this cant be guaranteed! For all this, she is wanting £350. If some breeders can offer all this I wonder how the other breeder could ask £400 for the puppy with nothing as follow up.

Sorry to go on but the more Ive thought about the poor pup the more the breeders attitude has got to me. I just wasnt happy to take the puppy under those cicumstances.

OK rant over, any opinions welcome, good or bad!

You have done the right thing by walking away from this pup. There are just to many things about that situation that ring alarm bells. In fact, it is the perfect example of how not to breed dogs ethically and responsibly!

I wouldn't be too concerned about whether first vaccinations are offered or not. There are several brands of vaccs available and unless you vet uses the exact same brand, you'll need to start the course from scratch anyway. I'd actually prefer to have a pup that had no vaccinations. IMO, it is no guage of how good a breeder is as I know of several BYBs who fully vaccinate their pups before they go to their new homes but I still wouldn't touch one of their pups with a barge pole.

The are several people here who are very knowledgable about CKCS. Hopefully they will be along to advise of the health tests etc that you should be looking for.

You have certainly done the right thing by walking away. 

Contact the Cavalier breed club and ask to be put in touch with a reputable breeder.  You may have to pay an extra £100 or so, but you could have paid 10 times that amount at the Vet in the first 6 months, which is what clients of mine have done when they have bought from similar situations.
A well bred puppy from health tested parents is worth waiting for. :)

You most certainly did the right thing. Walking away was absolutely right.

That poor bitch is being used purely to churn out litter after litter simply for money. The KC will register 6 litters to a bitch, and most people think that's too many.

The vaccine part I don't have a problem with. When I last had a puppy vaccinated (6 years ago) my vet wouldn't give the first jab till 10 weeks of age, to make sure the levels of maternal antibody were very low and the vaccine would 'take' better. So I personally wouldn't expect an 8-week old pup to be vaccinated at all.

Paper training wouldn't bother me either - in fact I prefer for a pup not to be encouraged to think that weeing and pooing indoors is okay! I have paper down on the floor in a litter's indoor run, but that's a different matter to wanting them to actually use it!

Make sure this next puppy you go to see is KC registered - the system isn't perfect by any means, but it's better than any other.

I would have advised you to ruuuuuuuuuuun! I'm so glad that you did.  Poor pup and poor mum! :-(

You did the rightthing by walking away.

I personally wouldn't touch the Free-ad papers with a bargepole. Normally, if a breeder is reputable and breeding for the right reasons then they won't have to advertise their litters, especially not in those places.

Did you not speak to some breed clubs first to find out about breed profiles, prices, health checks, upcoming litters etc?
If not, why not?

In my fairly limited knowledge, Dogloves registration is as good as useless. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. The fact that she couldn't register any more with the KC really does say it all :rolleyes: alarm bells would have been deafening me at that stage. A 9yr old dam that has been bred, from what you say, all her life....hmmmm :rolleyes:

From reputable breeders I don't worry about vaccinations or "paper training" as this isn't how I choose to train my pups. Dietary advice is a must. Feeding on Supermarket puppy food isn't my idea of how to feed a growing pup.

The "take her now" attitude stinks of greed. Again, any reputable breeder will interview you as to how suitable they think you will be as a prospective owner and then let you know their decision in their own time.

Thanks for the advice.

I have been researching the breed for some time now, also various "dog" websites for puppy buying advice which is why I wasnt happy with this breeder.

As I said the vaccines werent a problem as I would have contacted my own vet straight away for a health check and vaccines. Also the paper training wasnt a problem either, I suppose I was just trying to give you all an idea of her attitude.

I have contacted the Northern Cavalier Club and have left a message on the answer machine on sunday, for her to call me but I think I will ring her back about her puppy register.

Our idea to get a puppy is for a companion for our 10 yr old collieXgsd. But I am more than happy to wait for the "right one".

Hi Carolinexx

Not much to add - everyone else got there before me :D   Absolutely the right thing!

Teri ;)

>Not much to add - everyone else got there before me

There's a first time for everything I guess :D

:D :D :D 

Definitely a person to be VERY wary of. Bitches older than 8 years cannot have litters registered with the KC which obviously is for THEIR sake, the bitch's sake, so that's one alarm bell. Pups should at least partly have been reared in the house (say for the first 4 weeks at least), and with a small breed like a cavalier I can't see much reason NOT to have them in the house all the time -they're not very suitable as kennel dogs. Vaccines I wouldn't worry about as the norm is for pups NOT to be vaccinated when sold- this is because most pups are sold at 7 or 8 weeks of age and vaccines are normally given at 8 and 10 weeks, and it is important that the same vaccine is used both times, so it makes sense that the new owner has them BOTH done.

However, the MOST important part here is that the cavalier is a breed riddled with health problems and you must NEVER buy a puppy unless you have seen PROOF of the parents most recent eye tests and heart tests, and ideally (although very few breeders do at the moment) both parents should have been MRI scanned for Syringohydromyelia which is a serious problem in the breed. Also with more than 50 % of cavaliers having a heart murmur by the age of 5, and almost 100 % by the age of 10, it is essential to also know the heart status of the GRANDPARENTS of any pups -the grandparents should be at least 5 years old and still clear of murmurs.(With the paperwork to prove it.) All Cavaliers used for breeding should be heart checked every year and eye tested too.

Sadly the Cavalier is one of the most popular breeds with puppy farmers and backyard breeders; they are small, easy to keep, good tempered and easy to sell, and so many, many breed them just to gain money and pay no attention at all to the health. This is exactly why it also is  common for cavaliers to die already aged 6.

Definitely contact the breed club: http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk This website will tell you of health problems in the bered and give you details of puppy co-ordinators etc.

Good luck!

Two words---------Dont Touch.

Ditto to all the above! As an aside, isnt it difficult giving first innoculation due to different vets using different vaccines? The opinion of my breed club is do not give just first jab due to this, and also, if my vet is anything to go by, the second jab is charged for at the time the first one is given to ensure you come back for the second?

To all you Cavie breeders.  The new person mentions that the vet has checked the heart, am I right in feeling that this may not be the test that Cav's should have now?

Only wondering as the price for a KC registered pup of this breed does seem quite cheap.

Don't they have other problems that need screening too??? (sorry, not out to annoy, just curious??) :D

Don't they have other problems that need screening too???

newfiedreams it's all in my long reply a bit higher up. :) Heart, eyes, SHM.

Just want to say well done for walking away - I bet it was hard with those cute little cavvie eyes looking at you!! I have a cav and really dont know how you managed. ;)

The new person mentions that the vet has checked the heart, am I right in feeling that this may not be the test that Cav's should have now?

Well there's 2 options. You either go to your own vet once a year and get him or her to fill in a heart certificate (forms available from the Cavalier Club) with their findings, or you go to a specialist heart vet and get them to do it. Both is seen as acceptable as really any vet should be able to detect a murmur however slight, but there is a space on the cert to mark if the vet was a specialist or not.

Well done at walking away - IMHO vaccines and frontline etc are personal choice - I would not want a pup that had been vax or frontlined but that's my choice ... but EVERY breeding dog should be properly health checked with the appropriate documentation available for you  to see.

What a vile "breeder"

Well done for walking away. Always a difficult thing to do but this set up smells fishier than Grimsby Docks!

I wouldn't be worried about first vaccinations either and actually wouldn't thank anyone who had paper-trained a pup since it only means you have to train the pup twice over. I would, however, check out what the price range is for a well-bred pup and then wait until you can afford to go to the upper limit of that range. A couple of hundred pounds might sound like a lot of money now but in the long run it'll be nothing in comparison to the potential costs that accompany poor breeding and by heck, there are some very poorly bred Cavaliers available from less scrupulous "breeders".

You have totally done the right thing, i naively bought my first pup under similar circumstances and he died within a week of parvo, costing me hundreds of pounds in his price and vet bills and a very broken heart. Contact the breed club or go along to some shows and talk to the owners there, they are the best people to give advise. Well done you were more switched on then we were.

Why do people 'Frontline' their puppies & kittens, do they have a flea problem that they need to treat such young animals?

I have never vaccinated either prior to pups leaving here and I have never felt the need to treat them for fleas either!  Because this household doesn't have any!!:rolleyes:

Can't log in at work for some reason, but just to add my voice that yes, you did the right thing by walking away. :-)

Why do people 'Frontline' their puppies & kittens, do they have a flea problem that they need to treat such young animals?

Agree! I never do it at all unless there is a problem, and it's been years since I last saw a flea.

Here is a good article on the subject http://showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/k9journal/k9j001.html
that person was defiantely not a breeder as outlined here