It has to be said that we are very good at offering blanket advice on steering away from people who own a stud dog that they have used on their own bitch as well as others who have approached the breeder.

It is quite damaging to suggest that just about all breeders who have a dog and a bitch keep them just for convenience to produce pups.  I bought in a bitch of wonderful lines, proved herself in the obedience and show ring and has good health testing results.  I had the stud dog before the bitch with no thought of breeding myself, as I didn't have time.  When my work commitments lessened I decided it was time, not having had a litter for over 25 years.

Under advice from my breeder and others experiences in the breed the pair were mated at the appropriate age and produced some very nice puppies.  We are keeping one to show and one because we have fallen in love with him, having hand reared him.  No advice needed regarding rearing two pups from the same litter it isn't a problem for me, and all but two of the others were booked before birth the remaining two sold almost before their little feet hit the deck.

What will happen next?  Will I repeat the mating - no.
Why? because if I should mate my bitch again it will be to achieve a different type of litter not just to make money. 
Is my stud dog now redundant? (because I cant mate him to his puppies) no because he is already booked to other bitches.

People looking for puppies should not be put off because they can see the mother and father, under the right circumstances this is an excellent situation.

The only reservations I would have is that if the resident couple are mated regularly in a breed were numbers are not a problem, this is the situation I would be wary off.

Any comments?

There are always exceptions echo, which is why I wrote

Owning dog and bitch is often a sign of using the most convenient dog rather than the best dog for the bitch. and not always. :)

I'm sure that your litter were KC registered! ;)

Hi Val

Sorry where did you write that? 

I was just musing over some old posts, sad I know, but I have just had an enquirer who I had to turn down because there are no puppies left who told me 'they cant be any good anyway because you have to use your own dog'  Sour grapes? it does get you wondering where they get the idea from.

No offence intended

Here echo,  20 minutes before your post! :)
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/84633.html - I'm sure that you'll understand why.

Just read that one.  I hope it isn't a worst case scenario for the new owner.

IF I was looking for a pup, I would be asking the breeder WHY they had chosen that particular dog - regardless of who owned the stud dog - I think the answers to that sort of question would sort out the good breeders from the BYB...

Hi Digger

My feelings entirely

my dog is a product of the bitch & dog living at same address,owned by different people (who are married) .
they did it because of the lines of the two dogs & my god was it successful!(better than the bitches first litter imo when a dog a few 100 miles away was used).
However these were exerperinced breeders. Just a shame it cant be repeated.The dog has now died & the bitch has just had her last litter,(3 in total in her life)but is too old now for another.

so i agree, the "right" stud dog.MAY be on your doorstep.......or it may not be! i guess thats where experince comes in!!!!

My Rjj is a result of two dogs belonging to the same owner & like Michelle's Flynn the breeding was really well researched beforehand. In fact it was one of the goals of the breeder to pull all the lines together behind them & although they are still babies(8 months old)it has been an excellent breeding

The different being of course both parents & their parents have been health tested & are bred to do the job & in fact do the job the breed is designed to do.

The puppies are registered(not KC but ISDS)

Totally different to buying a dog & bitch from anywhere & breeding them together of course

I must say I think it is too freely said not to use a dog and bitch living together.  Assuming you are into line breeding then it is possible you will have similiar types of dog who will be suitable.  I plan on using my young boy in a couple of years on his aunt not because it is 'convenient' but because the faults they each have will hopefully be corrected by using him on her.  This is my method of breeding if I see a fault in my dog I look for a dog who has got a good version of my dogs 'fault'.  I find it hard to imagine why anyone would buy a dog specifically for the purpose of using it on their bitch as surely it would be cheaper to go and use a stud dog long term

Karen

>I find it hard to imagine why anyone would buy a dog specifically for the purpose of using it on their bitch as surely it would be cheaper to go and use a stud dog long term

But if you own the dog anyway............
I hasten to say I do accept that there are exceptions but I have to say they seem very much in the minority.

I am a great fan of linebreeding :) and of course understand why you would want to mate a related dog and bitch a little way down the line, but when first time breeders or puppy producers talk about 'checking the pedigrees' then tend to mean that there are no similar relatives!! :(   If you look at the ads on the 'not to be recommended sites', the majority say 'dog and bitch can be seen'.  It would appear that the easiest and most lucrative way to produce a litter, is to buy cheap, unregistered, unhealth tested, unrelated dog and bitch.  I don't think that anyone here would recommend buying from that sort of breeder?

A well bred litter is exactly that, the product of experience and thoughtful breeding, regardless of where the sire lives.

I definitely think it is possible for a good breeder to own both parents, after all many of the top breeders will have quite a few dogs -doesn't mean they will ALWAYS just use their own dog/s. My own breed is so small numerically (as far as I am aware, no more than 5 now active show breeders in the UK) that it also would not be unusual to have a breeder owning both parents, but again they also often go elsewhere and abroad. However I'd be wary if it was a newcomer who had both parents, in particular in a popular breed where finding a good stud elsewhere would be easy.

Hi Echo,

I agree with yourself and Digger - it's more important to know why a particular mating was done but I'm not sure the average pet owner would know what was a suitable answer.   On forums such as these it's probably more often than not easier to point out that many situations where the breeder owns both sire and dam can be questionable but it does make it slightly difficult for responsible breeders who have done their homework and taken the advice of experienced mentors to "say now't" when such topics come up ;)   

Like you I have also used my own stud on my own bitch and had very valid reasons for doing so and had the full support of my bitch's breeder who knows the lines inside out :)  The resulting progeny have certainly proven that it was a well matched mating with most of those in pet homes being well worth showing if their owners ever felt the urge and those currently shown doing well both here and in the US.

Personally I wouldn't repeat a mating no matter how successful as at the end of the day it IMO restricts the gene pool and also is not opening up opportunities to further enhance the breed.   But each to their own on that one ;)

regards Teri

I know quite a few breeders who have owned a dog or bitch and when they have felt the time was right, bought another of the opposite sex with a view to breeding in the future. This does not mean they are bad breeders - the main question is what research they did before selecting the second one. If they looked at pedigrees etc and did their homework, then I can see nothing wrong at all.

I agree with Fillis, if someone has gone out and looked for a pup with the  right background (pedigree,performance,conformation etc) and then assessed the pup themselves  and bought it as a future stud dog/brood bitch it makes them a GOOD breeder. If the same criteria are applied to the pups parents as would be applied to the prospective stud dog then i can't see the problem. This is of course assuming that the breeder would then show or work the pup to gain his own chance as a sire. What could be nicer as a breeder then to own and bring up and compete the mother and father of a litter and then bring them up and show them?

I hope i have explained that fairly clearly!