Hi all,
Been looking through a few posts now to see if I could find any advice etc for humping and, more so, what the views on castration were. It would appear that the latter has mixed views so I was wondering what people may do in our situation.

Paddy (SBT) is now 11 months old. When we first got him both me and my wife had it in mind to have him castrated as soon as we could as we were not going to use him therefore his bits were excess! Over time, however, I went off the idea purely on the "males should have" stance and also the slight possibility I might show him (99% now ruled out). Paddy's behaviour is no different to what we would have expected with a pup except for the fact that he is constantly trying to hump my wifes leg or has his nose stuck up her crotch. We use sound aversion and currently are also giving him a couple of minutes solitary every time he does it. Both work to a degree as he knows he is doing wrong but it hasn't stopped it keep going back for more. We are now at the point where we have to decide if the chop would be the best thing as I've read it should be done before 12 months otherwise the behaviour patterns become imprinted. We are aware that it is not guaranteed to stop him - but it might. Could it be trained out of him successfully? A humpy toy would be no good as he's a power chewer.

Another thing which concerned me is an article I read which says about "growth plates" not opening up if done too soon which could cause the dog a lot of pain in future.

I would really appreciate your opinions as to what you would do in our shoes. My wife (and her bruised leg) are coming to the end of their tethers!

Thanks in advance

Russ

Hi Russ

The important thing to remember is that, at 11 months, Paddy is at the peak of adolescence.  The equivalent of a 15 yr old boy. 

Adolescent male dogs have about 2-3 times the amount of testosterone in their blood as adult male dogs, so you can imagine how randy he must be feeling.

What I'm saying is - if you don't castrate him, the level of testosterone WILL drop anyway as he matures, and hopefully this behaviour will stop as a result, so it's not something you're stuck with forever.

I'm not sure where you found the info about behaviour patterns becoming imprinted if you don't castrate before 12 months - I've never heard of anything like that and believe that's misinformation.  There's a theory about testosterone-related aggression being lessened if the dog is castrated early, but not humping and other behaviours.

The other thing to remember is: A punishment (which is what your sound aversion is), needs to be quick, sharp, exceptionally well timed and extreme.  You should not need to repeat a punishment more than a few times, if the punishment is extreme enough to work.  And if the punishment is not extreme enough, then it isn't punishment but abuse.  So if your "sound aversion" "hasn't stopped him going back for more", then it's not working and you should re-think your methods.

I wouldn't suggest giving him a humpy toy anyway - that's encouraging the behaviour, not discouraging it. 

What I believe you should do is to have a warning word - perhaps "ah ah", if you don't use that in another way.  When you (or your wife) see him go to hump, say "ah ah".  If he decides NOT to hump when he hears that, you need to be able to reward that decision.  Perhaps you should have several stuffed kongs on the side.  If he doesn't hump, say "Yeah", be very excited and run to give him a kong - reward that decision.  A kong is good because it will keep him busy for a while and he will hopefully forget about what he wanted to do and the randy urge will subside!  If he ignores the warning and continues to go ahead and hump, then you should give your "punishment" - if you are going to use sound aversion, it sounds like it needs to be more intense than whatever you're using now.  If you're going to use time out, he needs to know that is because of his humping - timing is very important - get him off your wife's leg and isolated ASAP.  Is that any help?

Edited because I forgot to say: I would hold off on the castration for now until he is at least 18 months.  Then he will be fully mature, which I believe is best for castration or spaying.

Many thanks for that. I suppose we may not be showing the right signs fully. By sound aversion I mean we say "ah ah" as soon as he goes to latch on but when he decides not to hump we only tell him "good boy" and don't actually reward him. So that's the next step. We were also thinking about using a whistle as the sound - advisable?

I was hoping this would be an adolescent thing and that it would ease off as he matures. I have a friend who has an intact Spaniel who tells me his has calmed down now he's got older. My wifes leg is black and blue because, even at 11 months, he has a lot of power when he grabs hold and the power will only become greater. So to hope for this urge to drop away is encouraging.

This is something we really want to work on before doing anything drastic to his bits! Another point I should have made in the original post was that, whilst I am at work through the day and the kids are at school, he doesn't seem to have such an interest in humping "the leg". It's only more so when I come home that he really starts so I would imagine this is not just sexual but also challenging my dominance. Does this make sense?

Thanks again.

Hi Russ

Yes, you should definitely reward with a food treat/kong etc, rather than just praising verbally.  This will help to make a bigger difference between good behaviour and bad.

As for using the whistle as the sound - don't use a whistle if you ever want him to come to you using a whistle as a recall.  Even if you don't want to use a whistle for a recall ever, just bear in mind that whatever noise you use will remain aversive to him for a long time, possibly forever.  And every time he hears it, he will dislike it.  So don't pick a noise which occurs often or which he is likely to hear outside/at any other time.  (Possibly other dogs' owners using whistles to recall their dogs??) 

To be honest, I think you should focus far more on providing a positive reward for good behaviour and for deciding not to hump, rather than spending time thinking about how to punish the bad behaviour.  When you do think about punishment, I would also try the "time out" tactic consistently and for a length of time before deciding to maybe use sound aversion. 

The secret with the "time out" tactic is to have a word to mark the "bad behaviour" (not the same word as the warning word (ah ah) but something else - "Yuck" or a hissy "ssshhhh", perhaps?).  Say this at the precise moment that he mounts the leg, then immediately put him out in another room for 1 minute.  If he barks to come back in, ignore him and don't let him back in until he's quiet for at least a few seconds, as long as he's been out at least 1 minute.  If he mounts again, same happens again.  If mounting comes to mean social exclusion, he should decide it's not a good idea.

So, it would go:
Dog goes to mount.  You (or wife) give warning "Ah ah".
Dog obeys and doesn't mount.
Lots of high pitched, happy praise and a food treat asap.

Or:
Dog goes to mount.  You (or wife) give warning "Ah ah".
Dog ignores and mounts anyway.
"Yuck" or "shhhhhhh", dog immediately put out for 1 minute.

How much exercise is he getting each day?  You might want to consider increasing that, particularly at the time of day you say he wants to hump (when you get back from work) - he can't hump while he's having a walk. 

Edited because I forgot to say - the reason for the "Yuck" or "Shhhhh" noise is that sometimes it can take several seconds to detach a dog from someone's leg and get it in another room.  The dog then won't know exactly what it is being punished  for.  If you can mark the bad behaviour with a word (yuck or shhh), then it will act as a bridge to the punishment.  Kind of like the clicker is used as a bridge to the reward.  If that makes sense.

Also - forget about him trying to assert dominance - it's got nothing to do with that and is just an over-excited dog.  The whole dominance thing is outdated and not accepted by most modern dog trainers.  I have a link somewhere - will post it.

Debunking dominance link:

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2004/Debunking.pdf

The time out tactic is the one which I think will have most effect. I've read many a Staffie owner use this as Staffs hate being isolated from people. I'm now more confident we can crack this one! We'll just have to think of a new word now to "bridge". Like you say, it's probably down to us now to be consistent with how we deal with it.

As for the walking, he generally gets 2 to 3 walks a day with at least one of these being a good run on the beach and, as a rule this would be a couple of hours after I got home. Maybe if I get him out straight away it could help?

Whilst I had a quick look at the link provided, I will digest this properly tomorrow when it's a bit quiter here. I'll let you know how we go on with our little man.

Many Thanks for your help,

Russ

Hi onetwothree,

I tend to spend a lot of time reading posts but rarely respond unless I feel I have something constructive to say or if I have a question myself.  I apologise to Russ for going off on a tangent here as I can't speak from experience having never owned a male dog. 

Onetwothree, I am curious as to why a bitch should be spayed no sooner than 18 months.  I own a 16 month staffie bitch who was spayed after her first season.  She was aged 9 months.  I sought the opinion of two or three vets because I received conflicting views from posts on this forum, vets, staffie breeders etc.  From what I can gather, staffies mature later than many other breeds.  i was always cynical about having my girl spayed too soon because I had heard stories of her being stuck in puppy/adolescent mode for the rest of her life.  However, I also had to bear in mind the health implications of not having her spayed, especially as we never intended to show or breed from her.  I was told from all vets that after each season, the potential for cancer etc increased. 

As I have had her spayed well before the time you recommend, does this mean I will have to deal with as yet unseen behavioural problems?  At the moment she is responsive most of the time to what she has been taught.  Occassionally she has her stubborn head on but I see no real difference in her behaviour from pre spaying to post spaying.  We have always taught her right from wrong and although she seems to grasp this, she will sometimes revert to attention seeking by doing the things she has been trained not to, i.e taking socks from the washing basket, bouncing around our living room with a shoe she knows she should not have. 

I have learned from research that a staffie, in tact or not, will go through a second adolence period from 18 months to 20 months.  Therefore I have much more mischievousness to look forward to (or not).

Sorry Russ that I can't offer any advice.  As I said I have never owned a male dog, but i'm sure that the advice you are given on this forum is sound.  Good luck!

hi russ,
we are having the same problem with our bullmastiff, he has been to the vets to get the chemical castration injection which didnt alter it at all except making him thirsty,as soon as we stroke buster he grunts , snorts then starts humping , it has never been condoned right from the start and has always been sent out of the room, even crated for a while then let back in again but no after ten minutes as soon as you touch him or anything he is off. sometimes he even does it to himsel, he has had 2 injections and he aint having anymore as it can damage them? i am waiting to hear back from a behaviourist today as we are too at our wits end, anyother way he is brilliant we show him and he dosent do it while being on the lead just in houses anyones hse that shows him any attention,i will let you know what i get told !god knows how much this is all gonna cost me but we need it cured,it must be a shame for them as i really dont think he can help it.?

p.s ours is 18 months old, its just getting worse.

Sarah, what an interesting post!  And by replying I'm probably going slightly off topic, so apologies in advance... however...
I have a 3 1/2 year old stafford bitch, who was spayed at about the same age as your girl.. I have to say she seems to have never grown up!  In a permanent state of excitement!  I too sought advice from more than one vet and more than one experienced stafford owner/breeder...but decided to have her neutered nonetheless...
However, equally, it is true what you say about them having a '2nd coming' as it were, and having some adolescent behaviour...
but what I would say is that the breed do mature quite late on in life (if ever!) and that by their very nature they are very active, 'on the go' dogs... would you agree?  Just out of interest!
Regards
xxx

Hi Tessies Tracey,

I absolutely agree!  When we decided on a staffie, one of the reasons was that we didn't want a breed which just sat around and only gave attention when wanting to be fed and walked and would then be more than happy to lie in front of the fire and sleep.  We realised that a staffie would possibly never grow up as such and could be quite demanding.  However, the joy she gives us and the stories we have to tell of her mischievousness is endless. 

Another good thing with such an active breed is that it can be a lot easier to tell when they are a little 'off colour'.  The minute I sit down with a cuppa and Poppy doesn't bring me her ball for some play time is the time I start to worry that she is not well. 

On the whole, she knows her place but she does try to push her luck sometimes and this I guess is the nature of the breed we have chosen and something we have to adapt to and deal with appropriately.  I sometimes think there is a constant battle as to who is top dog but she generally backs down (almost) willingly.

Sarah

Hi Sezi

Well, the first thing to say is that there are different opinions about the best time to spay a bitch.  And that vets don't always hold the same opinion as experienced breeders and owners.

Firstly, some vets, influenced particularly by the practice in the US, advise spaying before the first season.  In the US this is fairly standard, for all bitches to be spayed without even 1 season.  The reasons they put forward for this are that it almost completely eliminates the chances of mammary cancer later on in the bitch's life.  But I feel that the main reason is because obviously the fewer seasons that a female dog has, the less the chance of the unwanted pregnancies that happen amongst pet owners and lead to rescue kennels over-run by unwanted dogs.  Vets (and many others) in the US have the idea of unwanted dogs =bad = spay, drummed into them and are more or less indoctrinated into spaying before the first season.

Secondly, other vets, slightly more old-school than the above, suggest waiting until after a bitch's first season, so that she has 1 season.  They believe this allows the dog to grow up and mature more, before being neutered.  Personally, I don't find many bitches of most breeds noticeably more mature after their first season than before!!  They seem to be just the same to me - I think the "maturity" issue is more to do with time that passes, not with number of seasons.  (Otherwise we're saying that a dog which has a season every 3 months, will be twice as mature as a dog which has a season every 6 months, because she has twice as many seasons - that just doesn't make sense to me.)  Now, the health benefits of spaying before the first season - like reducing the chances of mammary cancer - are incredibly reduced by each season that passes.  By the time a bitch has had, I think it's between 1-3 seasons, there are no longer any reductions in her chances of not getting mammary cancer, even if she's then spayed.  I don't know if I'm explaining this very well, but basically, if you want to spay to reduce the chances of mammary cancer (and I think some other cancers too), then spaying before the first season is the best and most viable option.  It doesn't make much sense to wait for 1 or 2 more seasons to pass, with this line of reasoning, because you are losing these health benefits, the more seasons that go by.  And like I said, a bitch isn't any more noticeably mature after a season than before - so I think this is actually the worst of the 3 options, because you don't get either benefits (a fully mature dog or health benefits as great as they would have been). 

Thirdly, still others have the idea of spaying when the dog is fully mature, which differs depending on the breed.  This way, it is said that the dog will not be "fixed" into puppyhood or retain puppyish characterisitics into adulthood, which it MIGHT do, if spayed early.  This makes sense to me - when a dog is spayed, her ovaries are removed, and the ovaries are a major producer of hormones in the bitch, just as they are in humans.  It makes sense that hormones are responsible for secondary sexual characteristics, as they are in humans, and that therefore the bitch needs these hormones to fully mature - mentally and/or physically.  Personally, I go for this option.  The chances of a bitch developing mammary cancer is incredibly small already, to begin with.  So - spaying before the first season might eliminate that risk altogether, but the risk is tiny anyway.  I mean - we don't give all women mastectomies and routine hysterectomies to avoid cancers - my point is that I think we can get carried away with preventative surgery, and I would rather the dog mature naturally before being spayed. 

The main reason to spay is to prevent pyometra, not cancer.  Pyometra is an extremely common infection of the womb.  The older the dog gets without being spayed, the more at risk she is of getting it.  However, the risk is not great up to, say, 4 years - I know of many breeders who wait till their bitches are 3 yrs old (fully mature enough to raise a litter) before breeding and they have had no pyo problems.  I think the risk massively increases when the bitch gets past 5 yrs old and is unspayed, and especially if she hasn't had a litter.  (Having a litter reduces the chances, it's not known why.)

Obviously it's harder to live with an intact bitch until she is fully mature.  You have to deal with the messiness of seasons.  Not being able to exercise her, show her or train her freely for 3 weeks every few months.  The doggy equivalent of PMT and possibly false pregnancies.  Having to be very responsible and keep her away from male dogs.  Not giving into the temptation of "oh, wouldn't it be nice to have a litter?".  It's not easy and not something most pet owners want to deal with - hence the vet recommendations.