I'm wondering if anyone has ever seen this before... or if anyone has some advice. We have a wonderful stud who has been superb over the past few years. Excellent lines, all health clearances are outstanding, terrific temperament... and makes lovely puppies. We have used him for the past two years without any trouble. However, the last two litters he sired naturally were half the normal size and then we had two girls miss completely after running with him throughout their heats. We did AI one bitch who is going to whelp in two weeks now but don't want to have to AI every time we use him.

Vet did a semen analysis and said everything is excellent. We are now trying to breed him with an experienced girl who is in standing heat but I fear he will again fail. The problem seems to be that he cannot aim. I don't mean to be funny but he just gets so excited and ties outside of her or hops off before anything happens. Even when we try to guide, he just walks away or misses completely. We are beside ourselves with frustration. This is an outstanding dog and we so desperately want to hold back some of his pups from this litter we are trying to breed for but would really rather not do an AI this time.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

The size of a litter is not controlled by the male, it is dependant upon how many eggs are released by the bitch at ovulation. Allowing a stud dog to run with a bitch throughout her season is a recipe for disaster, who's to say he hasn't been hurt when you were not around to supervise? Are you in the UK? If so you do know that AI must have special permission and that the stud dog must be dead, or resident abroad.

I think it sounds to me as though this dog needs a long rest, and then close supervision and expert handling the next time he is tried at stud.

Dawn R.

I actually wasn't looking for a critique of my breeding practices. We are running the stud with the girls under supervision throughout the day (separated at night when we can't be watching) on the advice of two different Vets.

The size of the litter will be affected by the stud if he is not breeding properly, (trying to not be too descriptive) has a low sperm count, prostitis, etc.

Thank you for your advice but it feels a lot more like judgement and criticism than help. The dog does not need a long rest - not sure where that came from. We have a repro specialist working with us and he has also tried handling this boy... hence the AI when he too was unsuccessful. This has nothing to do with our experience (we have been breeding for more than 10 years) nor that of a reproductive specialist.

Dawn wasn't having a go at all :rolleyes: She was giving her sound advice :)

If the stud has problems why are you even intending breeding

What breed is it by the way ?

Lucy, according to this post, they're labradors.

Not exactly a rare breed ... :(

"Lucy, according to this post, they're labradors. Not exactly a rare breed ...  "

I hope I have misunderstood your post. Are you implying that only rare breeds should be bred by their fanciers?

Not at all. But with over 40,000 labradors registered (and at least half that number unregistered) in the UK each year, studs which have already sired litters in the past can be considered to have done their bit for the breed. Unless of course they are outstanding examples of the breed - ie full champions, who not only fit the standard in the way of looks, but are also good at their traditional task.

First, I'm not in the UK, although even over here there are far too many Labradors being bred by BYB and so I understand and share your concern for the over population of overbred, poor examples of this breed.

However, I respectfully disagree that a stud who has already sired litters in the past can be considered to have done their bit for the breed. If a stud has proven himself and his puppies have consistently done the same, I feel that it is preferable to use this stud over another, lesser known dog. The stud that I am using has excelled in conformation, obedience, and agility and has contributed outstanding health, temperament, and skill to the breed. He produces puppies that are equal to or even better than himself and stamps his excellence on each of his progeny.

My position is that I have a superior example of the breed and want to run on some of his progeny from this litter that I have planned - the last for my girl. I wholeheartedly disagree that I should not be using this stud and am quite amazed that anyone who has never met me or the dogs I am talking about would feel obligated to suggest that my stud dog has "done his bit for the breed" and should not be bred again.

With that said, I will let this thread die now. I don't want to get into a heated debate about this and was only hoping to find someone who had run into a similar situation who might be able to offer an idea we hadn't thought of. I was not looking to be chastized for following the instruction of a Canine Reproductive Specialist and am feeling a little confused about why anyone on a "Breeder's Forum" is so opposed to responsible, ethical breeding.

You are obviously unaware that in the UK puppies from using AI are not registerable if the AI has been used simply because the dog is unable to naturally mate a bitch. If the dog has been dead for 15 + years or is overseas it is allowable but only with prior permission & I think the dog also has to have produced at least one litter naturally

AI is used a lot in the States because of distances & simply because it can be easier for the owners. It's a cultural thing I think

I'm not saying you shouldn't breed from him again - but in a breed as populous as labradors, AI isn't the way to go. How frequently has this dog been used? If, as you say, tests have proven his fertility, then litter size is down to either the number of eggs released by the bitch or the mating taking place at the wrong time. There are tests available to determine when a bitch has ovulated and therefore the optimum days for trying for a mating.

Personally I'd limit his access to the bitch and only bring them together once a day, under strictly controlled conditions: dog on lead and bitch loose to start with to allow a few minutes flirting and foreplay, then bitch on lead and dog loose, with handlers for each to try to ensure a natural mating.

Rather than risk loosing the chance of getting a litter from your girl (as bitches only cycle twice a year) it may be prudent to mate her to one of his best sons until it becomes clear what the boys problem is.

As his tests for fertility seem fine I wouldn't have thought the small natural litters were anything to do with him, and more likely just that the bitches either didn't have that many satisfactory eggs, or they failed to implant and establish.

As we in the UK will have very little experience of anything other than natural matings maybe all this assistance is frustrating him, or confused him.

Also it is not uncommon for some studs to be very choosy about which bitches and at how far into their standing heat they will mate them.

I'm assuming you're not in the UK because if you AI the puppies cannot be KC registered. How old is this dog?

No, we're not in the UK but the bitch who is in whelp was AI'd by a Vet. :)

I find it a lot better for a dog not to run with the bitches during the heat!

Had the bitches that produced smaller than normal size pups by him been used with him before?  If not then I don't really think that you can say that it was the dog at fault.

Can you not seperate him for a few days from the girls and then try him again?

How old is he?

Hi perrodeagua, thanks for the advice. :)

All of his previous litters have been a good size (8-10 pups) but the last two litters were only four pups. One of the girls was a repeat breeding who had whelped a litter of 9 pups by him in the past. After trying to guide him into a natural breeding without success himself, the repro vet felt that the dog would not breed with assistance and should be put out to run with the bitch under supervision. I would certainly agree that it would be easier and safer to have both dogs restrained for the breeding but he just won't breed that way anymore.

Yes, I will seperate him today and try again tomorrow... I just don't want to miss the heat. He is five years old and has always been so reliable in the past. Such a shame for this to happen and no apparent reason as he is in excellent health. Ahhhh, I am just so sad and frustrated.

Is he perhaps too familiar with the bitches. 

A lot of dogs who " run" with bitches won't mate them for that reason alone.

This isn't about your dog but in general I can't every get my head around a dog not being able to perform naturally but that it could artificially.   

Edited to add :

I noitced it is your bitch as you want to keep puppies back so maybe he is just too familiar. I am no expert in Fertility but the smaller litters are not cause for concern as far as I can see it is nature. That is why people say anywhere between 2-10 for some breeds.

I have had a litter of 1 and a litter of 6. Both Excellent matings.

It is the female and the condition of the eggs the stage of mating etc that has as far as my understanding goes the biggest affect on litters.

Slip matings of a few seconds produce huge litters.

My bitches rule the roost in here and I can't see them every being happy with their buddies around them. It is one of the most common difficulties on here from breeding questions.

I once had this problem when trying to breed one of my bitches to a well proven stud dog. It turned out he'd been having a somewhat difficult bitch a couple of weeks earlier. In trying to mate her, he'd injured his spine. This wasn't discovered until a couple of weeks after my visit, he was then helped by a chiropractor, who came to treat their horses, not him really.
The way we actually managed to get one mating (eight pups) with him, was to quietly stand by when he was let in with the bitch. When he tried to mount, one of us quickly kneeled down behind him, with her body pushing him right, and at the same time helping him with her arms to hold the bitch. Not that the bitch needed to be held, she stod like a statue, but this made it impossible for him to get down before they tied.
Now, this said, had I known then that he was in pain, which there were no signs of at the time, I would never have agreed to this. He obviously got down before aiming right, because mounting hurt his back.
My advise is to make absolutely sure your dog is in good health. If the bitch he is  trying to mate, previously has had a litter from a natural mating, I'd use AI this time if you so desperately want a pup from this combination.  (I'm not in the UK, where I'm at we can apply for AI if both parents have previously had a litter from a natural mating) Then you'd have time to have your dog examined properly.  Maybe it's just one of these things.
Try to be positive about what he has contributed to your breed, his genes are there for you to use in his offspring, anyway.
Best of luck,
Karen

in some breeds im not sure about the lab but after every litter the next litter will be smaller they will start with a large litter and then decrease. It could also be that you girls nutrition wasnt the best during her season so she didnt roduce as many eggs or she is aborting some in the litter and then absorbing them. First check your foods nutritional value.

  if the male aim is a little off you could try assisting him and if her body doesnt feel it can carry a large litter she will abort part or all of the litter and absorb them or if there is something wrong with the pups she can also abort there isnt anything you can do about it because it is usually done in the first few weeks before she has scans or anything

>n some breeds im not sure about the lab but after every litter the next litter will be smaller they will start with a large litter and then decrease.< 

Where did you read this??

Have you checked his back ? the tying outside / aim problems / hopping off makes me think of a possible spine problem.

Also, I agree that in a breed like labs, I wouldn't worry that much if the dog has already produced, maybe use one of his sons.

The number of pups is more the bitches problem than the dogs seeing as you've had him tested re. his sperm count.

Hope it all works out though.