Hi I have a male and a female golden retreiver whom I plan to breed in one year (when my bitch is 3). Is it too early to get the hip and eye scores for both of them done now?

You can certainly get teh Hips scored now, but you will need an up to date eye certificate (under a year old at time of mating).  You may be best though to get eye tests doen now, as they are much cheaper than the hips, and if they don't pass the eyes then you will not have spent so much (no need to score them if they fail the eyes unless of course you want to).

Thanks for that, do you know what the eye score involves?

You can get the hip scored at one which involves a GA, the eyes get eye screened not scored and i think that's done at most shows correct me if i'm wrong.

Warm regards Susan

:rolleyes:Eyes are not scored & the tests for Golden retieners are Hips, Eyes & Elbows BTW & it is also advisable to have the dogs heart tested as they are known to have

Have you done any research into the breed genetic defects ?  You are also very lucky to have two dogs whose breeding is well matched

HEART DISEASE
Hereditary heart disease, most commonly Subvalvular Aortic Stenosis (SAS), is known to occur in the Golden Retriever breed. All prospective breeding animals should be examined by a board certified veterinary cardiologist. If a murmur is detected through auscultation (listening with a stethoscope), additional diagnostic tests are available and may be recommended. However, even if the results are negative, this does not rule out heart disease, as some mild but hereditary forms may be undetectable except on necropsy. Animals with hereditary heart disease should not be used for breeding.

BVA/ISDS/KC Eye Scheme

At present Goldens are examined for 3 eye conditions :-

Hereditary Cataract (HC)

Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) (now virtually eliminated in the UK)

Multifocal Retinal Dysplasia (MRD)

Examination of dogs over 12 months is by one of a panel of vets with a special qualification in veterinary ophthalmology, and needs to be updated annually. HC can develop later in life and so all breeding stock should have current clear eye certificates. When you receive your puppy's KC registration document, it will state the parents eye status for HC & PRA with the date of the last testing. MRD is not included on the registration as other problems of a non-hereditary nature can give rise to similar lesions and the 'folds' tend to reduce or even disappear with age, all of which makes acurate diagnosis very difficult. DNA research is about to begin and hopefully in a few year's time the annual eye tests will be replaced by a one off blood test.

European Eye Scheme

This scheme has only recently been introduced, but a number of breeders are using it in preference to the BVA scheme. It tests for HC, PRA and MRD, but the results at present are not published or collated. The KC do not recognise this scheme and so the results do not appear on the puppies registrations. Like the BVA scheme dogs need to be tested annually, so ensure that both parents have current clear certificates and ask for a copy from the breeder.

BVA/KC Hip Scheme

Hip dysplasia (HD) is an abnormal developement of the hip joint, influenced by hereditary factors, nutrition and exercise.The hip is a ball and socket joint and in HD the socket may be shallow so the head of the femur fits loosely which in turn leads to wear and tear and arthritic changes. The disease is characterised by bunny jumping when running, stiffness after exercise and difficulty in getting up.

Under the BVA/KC scheme the dog's hips are x-rayed when the dog reaches a minimum of 12 months of age. The plates are then submitted to a specialist panel at the BVA who assess 9 features of each hip, giving each feature a score

The lower the score, the better the hips, so the range can be from 0 (clear) to 106 (badly dysplastic). The breed average is currently about 19. Dogs with 0:0 hips are very much the exception rather than the rule. The parents hip scores are shown on the puppy's registration as the score for each hip eg 10:9 which would be 19 ie breed average.

BVA/KC Elbow Scheme

This is the most recently introduced of the BVA schemes (March 1998) and so older dogs will not have been elbow tested. As it entails 3 x-rays of each elbow, some breeders feel that the risks outweigh the benefits. Elbow dysplasia is a multifactorial condition manifesting as a variety of developmental disorders of the elbow leading to osteoarthritis of the elbow joint. As the disease has a genetic component screening should help breeders select suitable dogs for breeding. As with the hip scheme, the dog must be a minimum of 12 months of age before it is x-rayed for the scheme (hips & elbows are usually done at the same time) and the X-rays are sent off to be assessed by the BVA panel. The scores for each elbow range from 0 (clear) to 3 (badly affected) However unlike the hip scheme, on the KC registration the elbow score is shown as a single number, equivalent to the worst elbow eg a dog scoring 2:1 would be shown as 2.

Hi just want to say the ECVO scheme is published & collated :)

http://www.midlandcountieslabradorretrieverclub.co.uk/puppypurchaseadvice.htm

If you don't know these things I'm rather suspecting that you have not been involved in the breed very long and perhaps haven't been involved in showing.  Please correct me if I have got that wrong.  I'm wondering, then how you have/or are going to determine that dog and bitch are suitable for breeding and especially together as that is quite an achievement to have two animals in the same home purchased by a novice that make a good match.  Have you got a mentor to guide you in this?

Hi my nan used to keep goldens for all her life but sadly isnt here now to help me. I bought a dog 2 years ago and then a bitch not long after. I didnt plan to breed but after going to puppy training then further training people started to say they were a great match. I consulted my nan and vet at the time whom both agreed and contacted the breed club folk with the pedigrees and information and they agreed too. I have researched into hip scoring but just didnt know the best time to get it done - but knew it was before mating!. Both sets of parent to my two goldens have excellent hip scores my dogs sire is 5/3 and dam is 5/6 and my bitches sire is Ritzilyn Brandon who I assume most Golden lovers have heard of! He scored 6/5 and dam was 12/5. I have delivered puppies before (I even gave mouth to mouth to save one!) and used to see practice and visits with my vet so I got alot of information from him. I visited this site as I just want to get as much information as possible in the next year to be a good breeder. Most of my family members and alot of friends have said they want a puppy if I decide to breed. I am fortunate to have my own business and so can be here for my bitch almost all the time and have a vet who I have on stand by for all my horses, dogs, cats.......! Also the lady who bred my bitch is well known in the golden world and said if I need help she will gladly help me. I stumbled upon this site yesterday and thought I would take advantage of everyones knowledge!!

To be a good breeder takes a lot of knowledge which no way can you possibley aquire that quickly.  this is why novice would be breeders need to get to know and work with the guidance of mentors in theri bred who do have the knowledge, if these people agree that the dogs in question really woudl be a good match together, or more likely worhty of being bred, but to other partners.

You really need to join the breed club, attnd shows andd working events and start from there.

The pedigrees may seem compatible on paper, but the actual animals may not bem as good as the ancewstors.

Puppies inherit traits from both parents, and you need to know what traits they carry, so need to know the good and bad points of the dogs behind them, so you need to search out the people who woined and new the dogs for generations.

How have your dogs done at shows and or working events?

The articles here will give you food for thought
http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/breedercomparison.htm
and http://www.dogplay.com/Breeding/index.html

Thankyou for the web addresses, they are useful. All 3 of my dogs have been to local shows and done well. I have a spaniel who is currently undergoing gun dog training and I am thinking of doing this with my golden dog as he loves attending the shoots and it seems to be his passion. My bitch likes to do fancy shows where she can show off just how beautiful she is! Havent done anything other than the local do's though as the dogs and I are more than happy with that and have years ahead of us to branch out yet! I am pretty dead set on breeding though with the two I have, I am sure the breed club members, my vet and numerous other people cannot be wrong that they are a great pairing and will have wonderful puppies, providing of course that all the scoring comes back fine. It may be my first time at breeding but I have a great support team to back me up, and every one has to start somewhere, if nobody bred because they were a 'novice' then eventually we would have no breeders! Everyone has to start learning somewhere! If I didnt think I would be a very responsible breeder I would not breed and if I didnt have a net of peolple who could help, again I would not do it. When it comes to selling my remaining puppies (ones that family and friends havent chosen) if I do not think the person/peolple who have come to buy them are right they will not be having one no matter what.

I'm puzzled you have experience of the breed yet didn't know anything about health testing

Hip scoring has been around for well over 20 years & eye testing even longer so I would have expected you to have quite a good knowledge of them

You didnt read my question obviously! The only thing I asked was when the best time to get it done was. Thanks for your remark but as you can see a helpful lady has already responded. Shamefully there are not more people like her who just want to help. Please dont respond anymore as I have had enough of the bitchy women on this site and wont be using it ever again. Insted of responding with as many catty remarks to as many topics as they can they should do something useful like take their dogs for a walk!!

Thanks for that, do you know what the eye score involves?

Anyone who has had the involvement with  Golden Retrievers that you have & yet don't know what eye testing involves leaves me very 

My dogs have been exercised & trained & groomed today already BTW

Im sorry 'moonmaiden' I dont recall asking what you thought of my knowledge. I asked a question that has been helpfully answered by 2 other ladies. You are only using this site to send peolple catty remarks that have nothing to do with their questions and do nothing but hurt and insult the person who asked. This site is so people can get helpful advice not so people can hurt their feelings. My question is not 'do you think i should breed my dogs?' because I am going to regardless of what anyone on hear says. My vet is alot more experienced than you are and has given me wonderful advice but I just thought i would ask a general question. I WISH I HAD NEVER ASKED ANY QUESTION NOW. People like you only encourage novice breeders not to get advice because when they do ask all they get is a load of abuse and insulting remarks. Now if you are not going to be any help I suggest you leave me alone and trouble some other poor sod, Ta very much!

Beau - Moonmaiden is a well-respected member of Champdogs.  Any questions she asks/advice that she gives are very relevant.

Remember, we can only answer the questions that have been asked.   We have to ask more questions in order to give you a full, correct answer.

Please do not denegrate the people who take the time to respond.   We really do want to do the best for all our dogs - and when I say our dogs I do include yours.

Please read the questions that are asked, and then think!

Regards

Margot

You know... occasionally... very occasionally... a novice breeder has two cracking dogs which are well suited not only on paper but also in construction and type.  What IS wrong with mating two health screened, decent dogs when you have several people interested in having a puppy?  I've not said anything about the replies to some of the posts on here before but feel I should now.  I can understand most of the replies to the questions that are obviously from people who've done no research and think Fifi should have a litter because all things should be able to breed, but this person (from what I can see) does seem to have made the effort to contact breeders of their chosen breed, have their dogs health screened and contacted their breed club.  This is the advice that everyone seems to give.  I've noticed more and more that posters are very quick to patronise and jump down people's throats - this is purely my observation and I'm not knocking anyone in particular - but you have to wonder why so many new people to the forum are writing posts saying that people are bullying/patronising/etc.  I just think maybe it's time to stop and think before posting.

Like you say the chances of that happening are extremely rare.  Further to Brainless' comments below I would add that if you, Beau or anybody else really did understand all the issues and ethics surrounding the breeding of dogs they would never question that people respond by further queries about your knowledge or advise about what you should aquaint yourself with but would wholehearted agree with this practice of taking the opportunity to promote responsible breeding.  If people offer advise already known it is a simple matter to confirm that and as we should all have the same aims should never cause offense.

I have no problem with well worded polite replies or questioning, it's the way things are sometimes written that give cause for concern.  When I constantly read a whole thread of replies that  basically treat people like idiots (whether they ARE in fact idiots is another thing altogether ;) ) I tend to get a bit jaded.  Good manners and polite conversation cost nothing. :)
 
I know feelings run high in the world of dog showing, and for all the right reasons normally, but maybe it's as I get older that I tend to bite my tongue and think about the way I respond to people.  Sometimes I can - sometimes I can't - but I do try.

As for not knowing about the ethical breeding of top class dogs - I have had a total of four litters in 29 years of showing and from them have been Top Breeder (in both the dog press and the breed club) and bred breed record attaining dogs including the only general Champ show BIS winner in my breed, bred and/or owned the Top Winning dog of my breed for many years running and now their progeny are breaking breed records and taking Champ show groups, with one of my breeding being the top brood bitch for the last 3 or 4 years.  I award CCs and judge four Groups.  I think I'm fairly well qualified to understand ethically breeding good quality animals from healthy stock. :)

As I said before this isn't aimed at anyone in particular but more of a call to think before posting something that could be taken the wrong way because of the way it's written. I have to congratulate Brainless on her replies and they always seem to be polite and constructive - even when on a rant! LOL

Most replies are polite and non personal, but the regulars get a bit jaded too with the high level of what clearly are ill thought out breeding plans :)

Surannon, in my mind there's only one thing missing from what beau's done.

That's showing them.  In a bigger way than "local" shows.  I'm not sure what beau means by local shows - if he means companion shows, which are worth pretty much nothing, or if he means Open shows, which are considerably more important.  But the fact that he calls them "local" shows, which doesn't really mean anything, demonstrates that he hasn't done many of them and isn't into showing.

If I had 2 dogs I was thinking of mating, I would be out there showing them at every Open show I could get to in my area, and I would also be making trips to Champ shows with them.  At least the champ shows which are a bit closer, if not every one.

At the champ shows he would be able to compare his dog to many many others, which is always interesting and enlightening.  He would see the type of dogs which are getting placed and would be able to think about how his dogs compare with those.  He would be able to chat to other breeders and showers by the show ring and ask for some honest opinions.  Not just one or two honest opinions, but several.

If beau was now saying that he had been to many open shows at least, and had had several placings there with both dogs, maybe even earnt his Show Certificate of Merit (ShCM) then I would think he's covered all bases.

However, instead he says that his vet thinks they are good specimens.  Now, sorry, but vets are not usually breed specialists and they don't know what the breed standard of all breeds are.  His vet can say that the dogs are healthy, yes, but not whether or not they are worth breeding from. 

He also said members of the Breed Club thought they were decent dogs too.  What those members know we have no idea but it's a very good start.

By the way, the Top Stud Dog in my breed (for about the past 8 years I think) has been to only a handful of shows in his 11 years of life and was never made up - he just an outstanding example of his breed who throws damn good progeny.  You don't have to show a dog to have a decent one ;)  I think I understand what you meant by your comments.  Going to shows with your dogs is a very good way of getting unbiased opinions of them when you're not sure yourself.  You don't HAVE to show your dogs to breed a litter ethically - it's all personal opinion.

With due respect, that stud dog is an exception, very much so.  Most bitch owners who show, and want to breed in order to show, will look for titled stud dogs.  Which means showing them.

onetwothree,
Just to add my two pennies worth, some people with very good dogs don't enjoy showing, I being one of them, much prefering taking part in agility and fun events. Does this mean I shouldn't have bred a litter because my bitch wasn't shown, she had all health tests etc and comes from very good stock, as did the stud dog?

The thing is most novices will not have the expereince to evaluate their own dogs virtues, and showing is one of the few ways to get opinions of them competing against their peers. 

Even if they have experienced people to advise them they cannot even judge the quality of this experience unless they meet other breeders and compare advice.

Even those excellent breeders who no longer show, will judge the success of their breeding by the results achived by their stock in the ring, and where appropriate the field.

Stock cannot be truly evaluated without competition.

I understand what you are saying Brainless, but the number of times I have heard friends that DO show saying "I'm not going to so and so show because the judge doesn't like my dog", or vice versa, leads me to believe it is who you know rather than the quality of the dog, but that is slightly deviating from my point. My dog IS a good specimen and I still don't see that because I don't choose to show her I shouldn't breed from her. As said on here many times most breeders sell their pups to pet homes and will never be shown, as long as the dogs have had the relevant health checks, great temperaments and look like the breed they are supposed to be, I don't see the need for showing every dog that is bred from.

but the number of times I have heard friends that DO show saying "I'm not going to so and so show because the judge doesn't like my dog", or vice versa, leads me to believe it is who you know rather than the quality of the dog,

Aw come on, NOBODY would believe that ALL judges had the exact same opinion of their dog UNLESS it had some faults that made it not good enough to show! There will always be some judges that like one type and others that prefer a different one, so everyone can find judges to suit even if they won't show under all. There is after all no shortage of judges. :)

So where exactly does the BREED STANDARD come in? If all judges judge to that standard they should all find the same good/bad points, which is my point, that showing is a personal opinion. Whereas with agility for example, the dog is judged by skill, speed, accuracy etc and wouldn't win anything unless it was good enough to do so.

In any case my original point still stands, because somebody doesn't show why shouldn't they breed?

So where exactly does the BREED STANDARD come in? If all judges judge to that standard they should all find the same good/bad points, which is my point, that showing is a personal opinion.

It's very simple, different people interpret it different ways. Which is perfectly okay as long as there are no great deviations.  :) But take Goldens as an example, there ARE judges that much prefer pale dogs and there are ones that much prefer dark ones. The standard allows for all the shades.

In any case my original point still stands, because somebody doesn't show why shouldn't they breed?

This subject has been discussed many a time, if you read the now locked "Good or bad breeder" a lot will be said in there on it. You breed to IMPROVE the breed, not t produce puppies, and unless you're very experienced with many years of showing behind you so that you can assess dogs in a unbiased way, you simply will not know your dogs' good and bad points unless showing them.

goldmali, don't forget that it's not just showing, you can improve on agility, obedience etc etc.  BUt the two things that must ALWAYS come top is temprement and health!

Showing is also a good test of temperament - and in public, too. ;)

A perfect-looking dog with a bad temperament should be 6 feet under. But a dog which bears only a passing resemblence to its supposed breed is also a genetic dead end.

Yes of course ice queen and I don't have a problem with people breeding from dogs that are very good at something else (in fact I think the IDEAL dog should NOT only be good at shows, it should also be capable of doing what the breed was meant for -well with some exceptions!! No need for bull fighting or anything, LOL) -although I DO think it is sad when breeds bred for one type of work only start to lose their looks as no attention is paid to the looks -this is very true in my breed where the working variety is so different many specimens can't even be identified as the breed they are meant to be.........

This si why I like the Scandinavian system, a working dog no matter how good cannot become a Field champion unless it also conforms closely to the breed standard for conformation.

A beautiful dog cannot become a show Champion unless it passes muster in the field.

Exactly Brainless. :) Certain breeds must be temperament tested too.

In many countries you cannot simply mate two registered dogs together sand register teh offsprign, so anyone buying a registered dog knows that the parents will ahve had to satisfy some sort of quality criteria before being allowed to ahve registered progeny, so the KC registration does actually at least show the parents had some quality.  Sadly this is not so in the UK or America, which makes uit a minefield for someone buying a pedigree pup.

My point exactly ice_queen. I just don't feel that showing is the be all and end all. I wouldn't have bred my bitch unless I was 110% certain of her temperament and had done the relevant health checks. Like I said most puppies are sold to pet homes, whether they come from show stock or not, I have done my best to make sure those pups produced are of very good quality. Just because I or anyone else that doesn't show, doesn't mean I can't tell what is and isn't a good dog, I have over twenty years experience in my chosen breeds and in that time have felt that only one of those dogs was good enough to breed.

I also feel strongly that all breeders should aim high. Those who say "I'm only breeding pets" do the pups, their owners and the breed a huge disservice. Yes, most of the litter will go to purely pet homes, and never see the inside of a showring, or be worked in any way. But every breeder's aim should be to produce puppies who would do well at these other tasks if they were given the opportunity.

Which is exactly what I feel I have done!

That's fine! :) Every so often I'm sure either you (or one of your buyers) check up that you're on the right path by occasionally competing in one or other field, to avoid the risk of kennel blindness. :)

It's the ones who aim low (or don't even aim, they just take pot luck) who are the real problem.

Pedlee, the only way to prove your dog is worth breeding from, if you're not showing her, is to compete in (since you mention it) agility and other competitive sports. 

However, IMO, it's not enough just to compete in these areas - you also need to be seeing a degree of success too.  Perhaps an AW (Agility Warrant), or working your dog in the highest level in obedience, or a couple of working trials qualifications achieved.  This kind of thing I would see to be the minimum.  Personally, in my opinion, if someone has a dog they want to breed and they neither show with some success NOR compete in working disciplines with some success, then no, my answer is that I don't think that person should breed their dog.

The rare exception to this would possibly be if both the parents of your dog, or more than one of the siblings, were show champs or highly titled in a working discipline.  The reason for this being that you also have to think about the genotype and not just the phenotype of the dog - ie - what is behind the dog and what could possibly be produced from this dog as a result.  If a dog had both parents being champions/show champions or came from a long line of highly respected (say) schutzhund dogs, or had 3 siblings which were all show champions - yet the individual dog itself had not been shown or trained for competition, then I think there could be an argument to be made that it is worth breeding from that dog.

Hip-scoring can't be done before 12 months of age, and bitches are generally best scored midway between seasons. Eye-testing needs to be done every year. Hope this helps.

Thankyou very much that answers my question perfectly

Beau I think you are being a little unfair to the knowledgeable posters who are only speaking in general terms about the ethics and knowledge needed before breeding rather than just producing puppies (which sadly many do with no great thought).

We don't of course know your dogs or their quality, but lots of people read these boards and it is only right to mention what is needed to be a breeder.

If you are doing what has been advised, which seems you are then good luck.

You must surely realise that you are probably in the minority.

I'm sorry Beau that you feel that way about Moonmaiden .
I have found her helpful kind and very generous with the information and knowledge she provides to this forum.
I think you have definitely taken her the wrong way and hope you re-consider moving on .

Roni

I second that, Roni.

There are many top breeders that have bitches in their kennels who wouldn't get anywhere in the show world but they know what's behind them and that although they may not be show worthy the dogs behind them have been.  Not every champion is bred by a champion dog.

I actually don't agree that you have to show your dog to breed from it.  But you do have to go to knowledgable people who know the breed, will tell you your dogs good and bad points, whether they are good enough a representative to be used and which lines they should go on to improve on them.

As others say for some breeds agility etc. is more important but they still should be as close to the breed standard as possible and with good health tests.

There are many top breeders that have bitches in their kennels who wouldn't get anywhere in the show world but they know what's behind them and that although they may not be show worthy the dogs behind them have been.  Not every champion is bred by a champion dog.

I actually don't agree that you have to show your dog to breed from it.  But you do have to go to knowledgable people who know the breed, will tell you your dogs good and bad points, whether they are good enough a representative to be used and which lines they should go on to improve on them.

This is exactly what I was trying to say SWD. :) Whether a dog not good enough to be shwon should be bred from would depend on what its faults are -whether they would be passed on or not.  Only the very experienced will be able to tell such a thing. I know I certainly am not exerienced enough yet to tell without showing if my dog have any minor faults (I hope I could see major ones!!) however with the cats I have many more years of experience of breeding and showing and there I CAN tell and know what is likely to be passed on or not, and I have indeed produced Champions from parents that had slight faults making them unsuitable for showing. For instance I had one queen who had a slight colouring fault. She became the mother of 1 Champion 2 Premiers one single CC winner and one BIS winner.

Although, wouldn't you agree SWD, that it is far easier to enter some shows than it is to try to get the phone numbers of _several_ (not just one) people who are experienced showers and breeders, then arrange to drive your dog around to their places, to get their opinion of it.  To me, that's what's involved in taking your dog to see "knowledgeable people" if you don't show.  Personally, I find it far easier to enter open shows in my area and the champ shows that are within an hour or 2's drive.

Easiest, certainly - and could be considered more valid. It will be very hard for a polite person to tell someone, face to face, that their dog is an also-ran, despite their obvious love and care for it. The temptation to be 'kind' rather than honest is enormous. However it can be done without appearing rude in the ring by not placing the dog. If three or four judges all dismiss the dog without placing (or consistently placing last) the penny drops ...

It will be very hard for a polite person to tell someone, face to face, that their dog is an also-ran, despite their obvious love and care for it. The temptation to be 'kind' rather than honest is enormous.

That's very true. There is a person in our breed who is CONVINCED her dog would win any show and is the best thing since sliced bread, and she has had several experienced people look at it. (NOT to get an opinion, I have to add, it was just a case of "Hey here's my dog, have a look, isn't he great?") Nobody felt ABLE to say outright that her dog is awful looking with several major faults.