Hi all

We adopted a lab X about 3 months ago (he's about 15 months old now).  When we (my husband, me and our 7yr old daughter) first met him, we met outside the house with our other dog (an 8 yr old collie X bitch) who was on her lead.  He was great, showed no signs of nervousness or agression, just appeared to be very inquisitive.

Since the day after we got him however, he's been a nightmare when out! He pulls like a train on the lead, and if he sees another dog, no matter how near or far, goes loopy - he does back flips, leaps about, yowls, barks, yelps then starts yawing, panting, shaking from head to foot etc.  He'll pay no attention to people when we are out, but if anyone comes in the house, he barks constantly and gets incredibly stressed again.

We've seen a behaviourist (he barked solidly for the three hours she was here) and have been clicker training him for about the last 6 weeks.  I've managed to progress from being hauled to the front door (and then out of it) the second his lead is on.  He will now sit and wait until I'm ready to open the door, and will pay attention to me in the front garden and on the path at the front of the house, but as soon as we get any further he just loses all concentration and I might as well not be there!  I don't know if part of his problem is that he needs more exercise, but we never get very far as there are so many dogs around here and there is nowhere secure to let him off his lead. We've got friends with well behaved dogs who've offered to meet up with us on walks so he can get used to dogs but I'm terrified he'll attack them.  I've thought about buying a muzzle so he can't do any damage.  We use a gentle leader with him too, but it appears to make no difference.

anyway, what I was really wondering was if anyone can offer some words of reassurance or advice?  We all love him to bits and don't want to give up on him, but sometimes I feel like we'll never be able to walk them properly, or have visitors around without worrying about the way he'll behave. 

Thanks

V

sounds like your making some progress !
I would stick to the basic training, you have only had
him for six weeks personaly i'd give it 3 months.
i'm  no an expert though, just had dogs all my life.
i'm sure someone, on here can help better.
good luck

Donna

I just wondered what made you think he might be aggressivwe towards other dogs?  From your post it would seem there were no problems introducing him to your existing dog, so I certainly would try him with well mannered friends dogs, especially other bitches at frist.

If his problem is frustration and not knowing how to interact this will help him find dogs less distracting.

Are there any netball courts in / near your local park? Some people in my park let their dogs off lead in the netball courts early in the morning, so they can lock themselves and the dog in and let them off lead without any danger of them escaping if they might not be friendly.

When he sees another dog, he lunges forward at them and his hackles are raised - I presumed this was a sign of aggression but might be wrong?

there are no netball/tennis courts near us, but there must be some somewhere, i just can't think where right now! thanks for the tip though, I'll try that if I can find some!

I would also suggest you enroll at a dog training club where he will be able to meet dogs in a very controlled environs & will have the support of the trainers as well there a lots of training clubs on the blub profile section of the site http://www.ObedienceUK.com/

The Hackles raised is a sign of being arroused, but it could as easily be fear/aaprhension as aggression.  Sounds like he has not been socialised with other dogs at all/properly.

Are you taking him to training classes?

If not pelase do.  Muzzle him if neccesary to fel more at ease.  start offf with him just beign around other sogs and learning to calm down. 

Keep him on a shortish lead, but keep it loose, but at least twice the distance from other dogs. 

The first time I would just sit in the hall and move around to talk to differnet people so that you can chat to people and he can see you relax.

Just insist that he settles by you while the class goes on.  Praise bery quietly and use slow hand movements any tiem he settles down.  Do not get excited or cross when eh gtets in a tizz, but just ensure he complies with yoru command to sit, or better lie down.  Do not allow him to make eye contact with other dogs if he barks, turn his face away, and get him to look at you and speak firmly and gently to him, saying leave, and praise for compliance.

A good trainer and class will help you loads.

Thanks for that.  I've wondered about training classes but have been put off because of the way he reacts, I had visions of being banned from all the classes round here :rolleyes:!!

I'm definitely going to get a muzzle for him too, I know he probably picks up on my stress when we see dogs which won't be helping - hopefully if he's muzzled I wont be so wound up about him trying to eat all the neighbourhood dogs! 

I think you are doing very well after only 3 months.  I've had my rescue dog 22 months and progress with him has been very slow, especially when it comes to him dealing with other animals.  Sometimes you think you've cracked it and then the next time you take them out you are back to square one.

I think you've got a good chance of being successful as your dog is young - mine was older and his problems more settled into his personality.  Take your dog to a class.  Mine was awful with the other dogs and had to be muzzled the whole time but he still did win a prize at the end for best effort :)

Never give up.  Keep up the training every day and hopefully results will start to show.

CG

Dont worry about your dog at classes. I have been going to classes for quite a while and have seen all sorts of behaviour, aggression, fear etc. The trainer handles the dogs brilliantly and matches the dogs up with another suitable one during the pairing exercises. No one feels worried about the dogs because they have confidence in the trainer. I go to a APdT run class. They have a website so you can find if they have a class in your area. Good luck, I think you are doing very well.

regarding the hackles being raised, mine often raises his if he meets a strange dog or is surrounded by or playing with a few dogs. But he never growls or bites, if any thing he runs away so dont assume that it is a problem. Good luck it will be ok in the end , well done for rehoming him.

How much exercise does he get?  Everyones' suggestions are great, I'm just going from personal experience - my brother's dog reacts exactly like your new boy does to other dogs when out on a walk (and pulls like a train, lol!).  I haven't made progress with her, basically because she isn't my dog - I have my own two needing training - but one thing I have noticed is that the severity of her reactions increases the less exercise she gets.  At the moment, she gets walked for around 10 minutes a fortnight, on the same route, on flexi; a while back I took her out (after 11 days no walks) and she reacted the worst she ever has at a group of very calm dogs who weren't even acknowledging her.  She does improve with long, frequent walks; also new places improve her dramatically, due to different sights and smells to stimulate her.

Incidentally, she is also worse the more restrained she is - dogs often have issues on-leash because they lose their "flight" option.  I do use a harness on her though - the halti body harness - it doesn't mute her reactions, but it makes her much, much easier to control, both when she's flipping out and when she's pulling normally.

Stick with it, it sounds like you've got a long way to go yet but you're making progress - and very well done for not giving up on him!

Hi learnertrainer,

Firstly, well done for rescuing a dog and even more well done for having the commitment to research about solutions to the problem. 

Nearly everyone on this site knows more about dog training than me and I have received much useful info about my own two rescue mutts from  most of them.  I have never attended training classes but did consult a behaviourist.  She gave me what I now realise was the 'rank reduction' theory of dog/human interaction but what she also gave me - as did posters on this site - was a thirst for knowledge and that would be my advice to you: read about canine and human relationships.  This helps you discriminate between different methods of training to find what works best for you and your dog(s) and will inevitably improve your relationship.

Three authors you may find interesting are: Gwen Bailey, Jean Donaldson and Suzanne Clothier but type in a suitable prompt in the 'Search' option and you will get many more ideas I'm sure.

All good withses to you and yours,

Linda

Thanks to everyone for the good advice.

I've contacted a lady who runs training classes locally - she's been very reassuring about us attending her classes.  Her training partner is also a qualified behaviourist.  She says they start off with the dogs at a comfortable distance from each other (I've got visions of us being in a field a mile away from everyone else to start with ) then reducing the distance between them gradually and the classes are very small to begin with, so hopefully in a few weeks we'll see some progress!

As for the question about the amount of exercise he gets, he gets walked pretty much every day, but the length of time differs on how well he's behaving! I've started walking him very late at night (so there are less things around to wind him up) in the hope that eventually he'll realise he can go out and have a good time if he behaves himself :rolleyes:

Anyway, thanks for the reading recommendations, I'll have a look at some of those before next week.

I'll let you know how we get on after first class next Tuesday!  Thanks again,

Val

Val, just make sure the classes are positive reinforcement - using treats and food rewards.  You should not be asked to push your dog into positions or to shout at it, give lead corrections or anything else negative.  If your dog just wants to hide under the chairs the first few times, that should be respected and it shouldn't be dragged out.

If you want to have a look to see what other classes are in your area, there is a list of positive reinforcement trainers on the APDT website:

www.apdt.co.uk

thanks onetwothree - I found her name on that website so I'm presuming it's positive reinforcement - I should have her info through tomorrow so I can check then.  there's just so much to think about with these things, its as bad as choosing a school was for my daughter

I cant beleive people would even think of suggesting this dog went to a class situation, the very thing which stimulates the dogs so called aggression is dogs, and what place has more close up exposure to the very stimulants which triger the dog in the first place.
'Positive rinforcement' people here do not understand what that means thats quite clear, the dog would be positivly reinforced first sight and smell of a class full of dogs, apart from that APDT trainers use negative punishment as about the only method, and look at the results of the 'APDT' method, as allways another dog with problems ending up back in rescue because its bad habits were positivly reinforced by the APDT so called training.

Hi

I take my 8 month GSD training every week.  A couple of weeks ago a new lady arrived with her 3 yrd old GSD who was absolutely lovely but was a nightmare where other dogs were concerned, apparently  very unsocial lunging forward with teeth showing, growling etc.  She said to the trainer that she had his muzzle in the car and should she put it on, it was a definite NO.  The trainer took the dog (He made all the rest of us, put our dogs either in a sit or in the down position - by the way there were 18 dogs) he then walked the dog past all of the other dogs up and down twice) at first he was doing exactly what the owner said he would, but by the time he had gone past about half of the dogs he calmed down. His owner was amazed, she then had to do the same thing..she was very wary at first but he was so well behaved.  That was last Sunday week..this week you would not have believed it was the same dog.  Our trainer has done this with numerous dogs....obviously if they are VERY nervous of other dogs, he would not walk them past or introduce them to the whole class at once, but he does introduce them to a couple at a time, he has done this to so many problem dogs that I have lost count, most of these dogs are the ones that are now sitting calmly while being introduced to other dogs with a problems.   People come from quite along way to get their dogs trained with him, he is fantastic.  (and doesnt charge a penny_ In fact one of his GSD he got from a rescue centre, he was her third owner and she was only 15 months. Apparently the rescue centre said she was aggressive and practically untrainable (Just the sort he likes!!) Anyway to cut a long story short within a few months she was a completely different dog who has gone on to win Working trials, obedience etc.  Her photos were all over the rescue centre.    

He sounds to me as though he is just raring to go! Labs are very physical high energy dogs (upto age 2-3 years depending on the dog) he desperately needs off lead exercise to burn this off.  Drive out to some woods or fields, get your local map out and have a look around for somewhere to take him. On lead walking for a young lab is no good.

Lead him when you come across other dogs to gage his reaction, and protect smaller dogs, labs are very bouncy and can easily hurt other dogs.

Training classes are a must for him!!!! For socialising skills and training.

You are doing fantastic so far, to already have him sit and leave the house without pulling is really good going**thumbs up!** so congratulations on that, it also goes to show that he certainly can and will be trained.

Keep up the good work, there is light at the end of the tunnel and this young dog can grow up to be a wonderful friend and companion. Just persevere. :-)

I am afraid positive training was the end for the dog Lyssa, more than likely because positive training promotes and attempts to use negative punishments as its main training method and the foundation of all its training (maybe you have not been told that.) Below is an update on the dog.

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/84891.html#fp