Hi,

My friend has recently purchased a 3 and a half month old ckcs blenheim dog. His name is Monty and she bought him from a breeder in Sussex. My friend paid alot of money for him because the breeder said that he is show quality. I would give her advise but ive never bought a dog with an undershot jaw. The cavaliers i have bought all have scissor bites from the start. I have read that slightly undershot bites and level bites very occasionally crop up. My friend called her breeder and her breeder said it will most probably correct itself but my friend keeps on calling me up because she is worried. I also know that it depends on the bloodlines of your dog and some take time. It is slightly undershot so do you think it will correct itself once the second teeth come through? I would also like to hear your experiences with this

To be honest I think it's quite unlikely that it'll correct itself.  It may have to do with head changing shape as it grows.  How undershot is it? If it's almost a level bite it MAY be ok, if not I'd be  little pessimistic.

Just making sure that it is in fact a Cavalier King Charles and not a King charles, where an undershot bite would be the norm.

I have a 9 year old Cavalier who's always been undershot. In my experience as a cat breeder of flat faced cats, jaws in short faced breeds tend to go FURTHER under as they grow, not the opposite way. The best I always hope for in my kittens are overshot jaws, as when they grow they tend to end up right which for a cat is level. So to be honest I'd very much doubt if this dog did end up right, can't see HOW.

Did your friend buy Monty intending on showing, or just as a companion, what was the mouth like when she collected him, and if not undershot then when did it go that way. The top jaw tends to stop growing before the bottom jaw, so I would not expect an undershot jaw to become a scissor bite.

I agree with the other posts that it will stay an undershot jaw all the dogs life.

Warm regards Susan

Yes she bought him intending to show him. I have Sheila smiths book which is one of the greatest cavalier breeders of all time and she said in her book that in some bloodlines they correct themselves when the second teeth come through and they very rarely end up with an undershot. My friend also asked her vet and her vet said that cavalier king charles spaniels do tend to end up in perfect scissorbites and so she shouldnt worry but he said its always something to watch out for. And it is slightly undershot not really undershot. I looked at him and it does look like the kind of jaw which will correct itself if you know what i mean but i think its always worth asking for  advise.


Please could you keep the replies coming.

thanx

Hi, I have to agree with the others and say the bite is likely to remain undershot. However as you are both being optimistic, I'll say that I have a bitch now 5 1/2 years old, that had a scissor bite until 5 months old, her adult teeth came in level. The bite 'floated' under and over until she was just over 2 1/2, when it settled at a close scissor and has remained so ever since. So there is hope, but that's all it is.

I also have a 7 year old dog that had a scissor bite till he was also 5 months, and his adult teeth came in level, I watched daily as his bite became more and more undershot, hope faded and he has now a bite more like a bulldog than an American Cocker. He came from the top breeder, was part of probably the most important litter to be born in recent times, his brother was top gundog one year and his sister was top gundog for the next two consecutive years. How I wanted to be able to show my Levi, but it's nobodys fault, these things happen, your friend needs to put this down to bad luck, and hope for better next time.

So this could go either way, but I'm rather pessimistic myself.

Dawn R.

Well i understand nursey but that is American Cockers. In most breeds the jaw never corrects itself but in Cavaliers they usually ALWAYS do. Cavaliers are descendants of the king charles spaniel.so many jaws have started off wrong and then ended up completely right! I know lots of people who have had this and there dogs have done jolly well in shows after correcting itself. My friend lives down the road from me so i checked Monty today again and it is slightly undershot so i think that it will definately correct itself.
Well thanks for all your replies

In most breeds the jaw never corrects itself but in Cavaliers they usually ALWAYS do

Erm well like I said in mine it didn't!

usually ALWAYS

You can't put those two words together, can you?

well it depends on the dog Goldmali and did your ckcs have a slightly undershot or a really undershot jaw?

He was just slightly undershot at 9 wks when I got him and he has stayed slightly undershot all his life.

well like i said it really depends on the dog but i think it will get better

Well cavalierz, I hope you are not disappointed, because if you close your mind to the possibility that this may not improve, you will be.

Dawn R.

well yes but i do not want my friend to be disappointed. I mean anything is possible ofcourse i agree but different bloodlines have different times. So i will tell her not to expect anything yet and not to worry. It is a possibility that it will stay undershot but i do not think so. But like i said anything is possible. I hope it does correct itself.

Why do you think it will correct itself? Have you personal experience of that particular line doing so?

I've got news for you I've been speaking to one of the most experienced breeders in Cavaliers(& a lovely lady she is too)

She's had Cavaliers for over 40 years BTW & when I asked her about selling an undershot puppy as a show prospect she was horrified, what she said was that if the puppy was promising in every other way she would keep the puppy until the adult teeth were through & only then if the teeth were perfect would she let the puppy go & if the mouth wasn't right the puppy would be rehomed as a pet. She's rarely had an undershot mouth in recent years & in the past only one ever went correct & she went to the USA to close friends & got made up

I personally would be guided by a lady like this & she is very honest lady(she loves my dogs but she & I know their faults)

She's had Cavaliers for over 40 years BTW & when I asked her about selling an undershot puppy as a show prospect she was horrified, what she said was that if the puppy was promising in every other way she would keep the puppy until the adult teeth were through & only then if the teeth were perfect would she let the puppy go & if the mouth wasn't right the puppy would be rehomed as a pet.

Exactly. This is what I would do with a kitten like this (bite problems being one major thing in my breeds.)

one of my very good friends breeds ckcs and she has had lots of puppies born with undershot jaws that have corrected themselves and like i said they have done very well in shows. To be honest i think it would be really stupid if my friend just gave up like that when there is a high chance of it correcting itself.
If you buy a book called cavalier king charles spaniels today written by sheila smith then you will see her point of view and THEN you will know what i mean.

yes i agree moonmaiden. He is a very lovely dog. He is good in every other way so all we have to do now is hope

To be honest i think it would be really stupid if my friend just gave up like that when there is a high chance of it correcting itself.

But I take it this pup isn't from the person whose pups' bites end up correct? Now if I was after a pup to definitely show I simply wouldn't chance it. What will your friend do if it stays the same?

If you buy a book called cavalier king charles spaniels today written by sheila smith then you will see her point of view and THEN you will know what i mean.

To be honest cavalierz, I get the impression you are just reading what you want to read, and you came on here wanting eveyrone to say yes, the bite will be fine. I have the book in front of me, and I quote:

One has to hazard a guess how the teeth formation will end up, but personally I like to see a scissor bite from the start in my own lines.

So first off she says all you can do is guess, but she would prefer a correct bite from the start. We go on:

A slightly undershot or level bite very occasionally crops up, recessive genes being what they are, even though I do not like using bad-mouthed stock in my breeding programme, but with the second teeth the mouth usually rights itself and ends up in a perfect bite. In some bloodlines I appreciate that the mouth can start wrong and then, with time, can finish perfectly alright, and vice versa!

This is obviously the part you've hung on to, hoping for the best -and of course nobody can blame you. I'd be the same! But she ISN'T saying it DEFINITELTY or always will correct itself.

Can I just check that we are talking about undershot (bottom teeth ahead of the top teeth) or overshot (top teeth overlapping too much over the bottom teeth).  the latter can correct itself if it isn't excessive as the bottom Jaw continues to grow longer, but if the pup is overshot (bottom jaw jutting ahead of top jaw), then I cannot see how this could correct.

Was the bite correct and a deep scissor bite when she bought him, as of course the teeth will be loosening when teething whcih might put some out slightly, but I would expect that a bit older.

There are a good few overshot cavaliers bred more than under shot & overshot mouths have a better record of correcting as the back teeth come through

The undershot bites tend to be from lines that breed from the shorter muzzled dogs according to the lacy I've been speaking to tonite

Hi Moonmaiden,

Did the breeder mention what lines breed from the shorter muzzled dog?

cavalierz

You show your dogs don't you so I would expect you to be able to see that dogs in the ring who have the short muzzles ie shorter than laid down in the breed standard(which is a aimed at producing correct scissor bites BTW)

She didn't have to tell me as I see the same dogs everyone else does in the ring which win despite not being correct

The undershot bites tend to be from lines that breed from the shorter muzzled dogs according to the lacy I've been speaking to tonite

Yep that's true of my Tri. :)

& the breeders are aware of what short muzzles lead to too. Her bitch in the states was not bred from as she & her owners were aware that there would more than likely be bad mouths in the puppies & it would be tantamount to breeding a pet litter on purpose something a good breeder does niot do

If it's only slightly undershot there is more chance of improvement when the adult teeth come through I would have thought. Also, even if the teeth are still undershot as an adult, then perhaps judges will not penalise too badly as long as it is only very slightly undershot? Obviously a dog with an incorrect bite will never get to the top, but as long as it is only a very slight fault and not a serious deformity that could cause eating problems, and the dog is otherwise really well made and moves well etc, then perhaps it could still do ok at shows, at least at open level? I'm only a novice though so am just guessing really. But surely a slight fault that isn't a serious health problem shouldn't be the absolute end of all show hopes? Probably not expressing myself very well here!

LucyD, what you say might be the case in a numerically small breed where it is a case of baby and bathwater, but CKCS are numerically very strong and I would have thought likely to be penalised. Also, as an undershot mouth is ok in KCS is not undershot in CKCS a throwback and therefore the sign of poor head type?  Given that the pup is 3 1/2 months now - u didnt say when the mouth 'went' undershot, it might be worth waiting to see, but I think it would be kinder to tell your friend that itis 50/50 at best rather tha build false hope.

This is exactly what I was going to say bazb -I was once in a class of 36 Cavaliers at a champ.show........... Even if as many as 20 of them had bad bites (which of course is unlikely) but were otherwise fine, that'd still leave 16 with good mouths to share the placings between.......

Hm, good point both of you. I suppose I was thinking more of the open shows which down here seem to have pretty poor entries a lot of the time. The judge might have to choose between a beautifully made and moving dog with a slight mouth fault, and a badly made and moving dog with a correct mouth. In that case surely the movement is more important? :-)

Hi I am new to Champdogs website and would like to get some information.  I have had 2 litters of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels with my eldest bitch and have had a litter with my younger cavalier this year who is 3 years old.  All my litters have been fine and i have always found good owners, but this litter i had them health checked at 6 weeks and they were fine and 1 pup went at 8 weeks and the owner contacted me to tell me she had been to the vet and her vet said the pup had a undershot jaw (this is all new to me) she then demanded £250 as she said this is what the vet said she would be due, so i paid her.  The same ladies friend picked her pup up at 9 weeks and has contacted me this week to say the same, now with this pup she went to the vet twice to be checked and the vet said she was fine.  I dont know what to do as a breeder as i care about the breed so much and always have my cavaliers heart and eye checked before breeding.  Have you any ideas what I should do with the second buyer as my other 2 pups that went to their 2 homes are fine after being to their vets as one of the owners wants to show her pup.

An undershot mouth does not render a puppy unfit to be a companion, and I assume that is what they were sold as, so I don't think you should have paid the first lady anything, unless of course it was so bad that it affected the dogs health and ability to eat, necessitating corrective dental work.

I am assuming the vet was talking about pups and not adults?  No-one can be certain about how a pups mouth will turn out until it's adult teeth have settled into the mouth, probably things will still alter until a year.

I would have aske that the pup was returned for my vet to check out, did you get it in writing from her vet, I certainly wouldn't have handed over any money, at this age the jaws grow at different rates and some breeds like mine have more growing to do than others.

Looks like the second buyer is chancing their arm so ask for written proof and that your vet checks the pup over.

An undershot jaw is obvious as the bottom teeth show, I was given a yorkie by a patient at 4 months old and she had one.

A pup can have an undershot jaw at 8 week that will be perfectly normal by the time it is a year - do wish vets would not make such silly statements. I am assuming if it was so bad there was no hope it would finish correct by the time the pups bones stopped growing the breeder would have noticed, what next will vets be telling people their pup has over large knees?

You should not have refunded money.  I can't believe the vet thought he was right to suggest this.

People mostly buy dogs as a much loved pet.  If someone wants a show dog nobody can guarantee whether the mouth will be wonderful when the pup has finished growing.  I know people that had incorrect bite on a pup, that, by the time the pup was a year old, it was perfection.

If I bought a male pup from you, and decided that I wanted to use him for stud, would you refund money if he turned out to be sterile?  Nope.  And I would not expect it.  I once bought an expensive bitch who never got pregnant.  She was eventually spayed, but is still with me.  I would not dream of asking for a refund.

I wonder how people would react if you told them to bring the dog back, and they could have a full refund.  But not the pup as well.  I am gobsmacked that you fell for this one!

I dont know what to do as a breeder as i care about the breed so much and always have my cavaliers heart and eye checked before breeding.  Have you any ideas what I should do with the second buyer as my other 2 pups that went to their 2 homes are fine after being to their vets as one of the owners wants to show her pup.

But not MRI scanned...? If you sold a pup as a potential show dog, surely both you AND the new owner will have looked at the bite? Yes bites can and do change, but it's just one of the basics to check before sale, alongside male dogs having both testicles descended etc. As a pet I would have thought a Cavalier would be very unlikely to have a problem being undershot -indeed I have owned one that was undershot, and he certainly could eat for England without any problems at all. But he was bought and sold as a pet, nothing else.

In my breed it is the norm to have an undershot, I've been lucky the most recent dogs we have kept (all the same breed) 3 have had great bites and 2 have been undershot. I'm happy so long as the dog can eat and I can't see tounge and teeth, as that does sometimes occur and so cannot be shown. I would not have refunded.

> You should not have refunded money. I can't believe the vet thought he was right to suggest this.
> People mostly buy dogs as a much loved pet.

And then you have all the BYBs churning out dogs who don't even know what bite means, or don't care about it one way or the other. Does the vet suggest the same then? With some of them you'd be given short shrift at the least, or verbal abuse at the worst, if you asked them about a refund!

In my breed the 2 ts we have to be worried about are teeth and testicles. IE scissor bite and 2 balls( sorry for the baseness)

The same ladies friend picked her pup up at 9 weeks and has contacted me this week to say the same, now with this pup she went to the vet twice to be checked and the vet said she was fine.

This sounds really dodgy to me. Ask her to get a letter from her Vet stating what he has found and see what she says about that! Then go from there.
I know of someone who's Vet didn't even know what a scissor bite was!

Despite making a good living from treating many pedigree dogs, in my experience, many vets pride them selves in not taking 'breed standard' points seriously. I've had several reports from puppy people that their vet noted the incorrect undershot mouth on their BOXER puppy.

Functional mouths would be the only thing that crossed their radar.