Hi
I have two English Bull Terrior puppies, sisters, nearly 5 months old. They both love play fighting, which is fine. Lizzy has always been the dominate one, but lately she suddenly turns on Molly very aggresively  & I have to pull them apart by their scruffs...one goes into the garden & the other put indoors. After a 5 mins cool off they are friends again. But this really worries me. This always happens when I'm with them..am I causing the problem do you think???
Thanks

What are the circumstances when the fights start? Is one being given attention? Are they waiting to be fed? More detail would be very helpful. :)

Hi
This happens after they have been fed. They are fed separatly to stop any quarells! They then get into their joint bed, then I brush them. Whilst I'm still kneeling down Lizzy starts eyeing up Molly, then all hell brakes loose. Like I say I let them have 5 mins cool off & then they are friends again & curl up in the bed & go to sleep. They both play, run over the fields & sleep together without any problems. They will eat a small biscuit together, but anything that needs a serious chew I will part them! I'm wondering if i should stop brushing them together...there may be a bit of jealously there perhaps!
Thanks

Hi
Just to let you know, I didn't brush the pups as usual in their bed this morning after their feed & hey presto...no fighting! Perhaps Lizzy WAS fighting for my attention. I wont hold my breath.....:rolleyes:
A

I have two litter sisters too, I bred them. For exactly the reasons you state, I would never ever advise having two puppies at the same time. I don't think you are causing the problem, but I also think it may well be an ongoing problem, that never quite gets resolved.

Dawn R.

Thanks for your reply....although it does sound a little worrying!
thx

i was once considering taking n littermates- was told that if you get 2 boys they will fight but make up instantly and forget what they were fighting for, if yu get 2 girls they will have an 'incident' ie- over food have a fight and hold that grudge a lifetime- sisters apparently dont forget when the other one has had 'one over' on them.

this is why i chose definitely not to take on littermates- this is more worrying as you have chosen to take on not only sisters- but 2 very powerful dogs- i hope you can sort this,

Hi
Thanks for your reply...typical women holding a grudge! They have been fine today....I've kept out of the way since feeding this morning...& they are getting along perfectly....I wont hold my breath! I'm just hoping it's jealousy on Lizzy's part, which I will try & control.
Thanks
Anne

Having two littermates is never wise, having two from a breed such as EBTs or SBTs is generally speaking advised against as they often like a bit of a scrap.  Experienced owners who have multiple dog households of these breeds are rare, but when they do occur, they have told me that constant vigilance is required........ even more so with two bitches.

Hi
Thanks for your reply....all's quiet in the western front this morning....me not grooming them together has seemed to stop the scrap this morning. They have had their play fight over the fields today, but thats normal with them. Perhaps it is a jealousy thing with Lizzy, as she only starts the scrap when I am grooming. I will groom in separate rooms in future & see how it goes.
Thanks
Anne

the advice i got when i was considering 2 pups was to do everything separately- feeding,walking,training.
ive heard often of people having littemates- they rehome the one that bullies the other, and the one left behind then comes out of its shell and you really see how much its been controlled bythe other- i really looked into the prospect of 2 and i heard this repeatedly- so thats why i dont have 2, try and contact a trainer and they can give you some tips to help your situation.

Hi Chrisjack
Your response makes so much sense....I can see Molly is being bullied by Lizzy & she is such a good dog. I have some serious thinking to do...but just so upsetting.
Thanks
Anne

ann all i can say to have two pups you must be strong or a nutter he he only jokeing how are thay london sam

I truly hope i am wrong here, but i suspect you will find in a few days or weeks that they will find something ELSE to scrap over, and this will escalate until  you have two options. Risk one killing the other, or rehome one.

They are matched in age, type and size, and will be approaching sexual maturity which is going to be the catalyst for further fighting.

Unlike in males where castration can reduce hormone based aggression, in females it has actually INcreased it, so thats not an option either.

Em

Hi theemx
Thank you for being so to the point...I must think of Molly's safety over my own feelings....but so very hard. But she must come first. And as Chrisjack said the bullied one may come out of her shell when not intemidated by Lizzy. It's a shame as Lizzy is a perfect dog in every other way.
Thanks for you comments
Anne

Hi

A friend of ours has recently got an EBT, so I did some research online into the breed, so that I knew what to expect - since our dogs and theirs meet frequently. 

Generally, I learnt that EBTs are more aggressive than many other dogs, and many, many EBTs are dog aggressive.  You can reduce this by A LOT of socialisation with other dogs of all breeds, while they are below 18 wks old - but yours are past that age.  I learnt that many EBTs just can't be kept with other dogs.  And bitches of any breed, like others have said, will fight more intensely if they take a dislike to each other than dogs will.  Since you have litter mates they are very evenly matched, age-wise, and that will make the rivalry between them even worse, since there is no clear "under dog" and they will feel the need to establish who is that, by fighting.

Our friend is not particularly conscientious about socialisation or training and so I don't feel comfortable about the idea of our dogs and her EBT mixing.  I met up with her whenever she asked, as long as the puppy was under 18 wks, because otherwise I would have felt like I was depriving the puppy of that much-needed socialisation.  The puppy, even at that young age, was the most confident puppy I have ever seen, of any breed (and I've seen a few).  Now the puppy is past 18 wks, I won't meet up with her until I've seen the puppy with other strange dogs and know she is ok with them. 

[deleted]

Hi Akho7o6 Keep grooming them separately and feed them separately like you have been doing and see how they go, you may have cracked it.  Dont give up yet they might just get on, their only young, if they do carry on fighting and it's serious then consider rehoming one of them but, i'd just wait and see if they have a serious fight again, if so try and look at what caused it.  All can suggest really is what your already doing, giving them attention separately, dogs do get jealous just like kids so if you can avoid it hey presto.  Keep us posted how their getting on, good luck.

Warm regards Susan

Hi
EBT's are NOT aggressive dogs nor dog aggressive. My 2 bitches have socialised with other dogs , off the lead,since they were 12 weeks old & there has never been cause for concern. EBT are very socialable dog & very good house dogs. My 2 love to greet all people with a wagging tail, including my 3 years neice. I take them with me in the car to all my family & friends, who do have other dogs. Even the windows cleaner jumps over my back gate when I'm not at home & he said they greet him as they have known him forever.

I think you have sort the incorrect information from somewhere. Perhaps you have sort information regarding pitbulls or staffies, website do still seem to confuse these kind of dogs.

In my case there is a clear under dog, this is the problem I have written about.And only one of them fights, the other is submisive. The problem only happens at home & NEVER in or with any member of the public or their dogs. And as many of my responses have said, it is because they are 'littermates' & bitches, not because they are EBT's.

To me they are not aggressive dogs my friend who also comes on here has one and he is a lovely dog his name is Julius, he went to ringcraft with loads of other dogs all different types of breeds, he was never aggressive to any other dog and still isn't it depends on the dog and the owner of that dog.  Dont make generalisations about a breed.  You can't tar a certain breed with the same brush.

Warm regards Susan

Hi Susantwenty

Thankyou for your reassuring words regarding my pups....& thankyou for sticking up for the breed!!

Anne

Hi Anne, i've got a few friends who have them and they are lovely dogs, i do hope your two girls stop fighting there's nothing worse.  The good thing is you've got one that's submissive and one that wants to rule the roost so hopefully once they've sorted that out between themselves you can get back to normal.  Atleast their both not bold or you would have big trouble ahead.  You know what's best for your dogs and what their like together take things with a pinch of salt.

See the way i see it is you need awareness, this sounds really silly but i have a bullmastiff female who is elven months old and a westhighland terrrier female who is four years old.  I gave my bully a bone, plus she was in season and every time my westie walked past the bully would attack her now i learned not to give the bully bones in the presence of the westie because she thought the westie wanted it although Luicy the westie has no interest in bones whatsoever, this was when the bully was six months old, i've learnt from that it's all a learning curve, as long as no dogs get hurt in the process.  Now Nina my bully is excellent around people with food but you put food and two other dogs in the equasion all hell brakes out, even if the other dogs have no interest in the food.  That's just an example.  I really do hope they learn to get along fine.

Warm regards Susan 

Hi Susan
Thanks again!!!...pinch of salt has been taken!!!!
It is a learning curve as you say, I too have learned about the feeding & bones! I bought them a 2foot long thick chew bone, thinking they could have a end each...how silly was I...they both wanted the same end & had a barney over it!!
I'll have a word with my dog trainer tomorrow, she always comes up trumps....but this time it may not be what i want to hear!!

Thanks
Anne

Correct me if i'm wrong - but the general consensus is that litter mates 'can' be aggressive to one another, when establishing their hierarchy.  Furthermore, bitches can hold grudges and are even more likely to become aggressive - Why then do breeders sell two bitch litter mates?

Probably Nic Burton because their inexperienced with dealing with litters, that's the only answer i can think of.  In a pack of wolfs i know dogs are domesticated but wolfs the females stay so i can't imagine bitches holding a grudge really when all the competition goes on with males rather than the bitch, bitches and males all have a role to play in a pack whether it's babysitters, entainers or so on and that's even if they are alpha or omega lowest ranking memeber of that pack.

warm regards Susan

Susan

There are bitch disputes in wild dog & wolf packs as the Aplha bitch ages & her production of the season inhibiting pheromone lessens. The Beta & lower bitches in wild packs(not captive packs which behave atypically)usually do not have seasons BTW this is due to The alpha female has such power, that by emitting a pheromone, it stops ovulation in all other female wolves within the pack. a quote taken from this  http://www.labradornet.com/wolves_dogs.htmlwhich is based on studies of wild wolf packs on captive ones

Yes, but never do you get only immature wolf females living together ;)  the immature wolf females have older females and males to teach them manners and social graces, something lacking in a domestic situation where 2 litter mates are homed together and have no adult dogs capable of teaching them ;) ;)

Spot on Dill there is no Alpha bitch producing the season stopping pheromone as well in this situation, this would reduce the problem even further as the bitches mature

My thoughts througout this thread.  I can't see any reputable responsible breeder letting a Novice owner expecialy ahve two pups.

This increases the worry in this si6tuation, as if the breeder were that lacking in basic knowledge, how good was the pairing that produced the pups?

Were the parents good examples with excellent temperaments?

What has been the breeders advice?

I'm very concerned that any breeder of such a powerful breed was willing to allow you to take home litter sisters, which has such potential for disaster :(   At this age you should be excersising and training them both separately and together, this will mean a lot of hard work and at least three walks a day for you for the forseeable future   It will pay off when they are adults and you have 2 well behaved, and well controlled dogs when out walking :)  It will also help you to assess the temperament of each pup separately, often one will be overshadowed by the other ;)

As far as bones are concerned, I also have two terriers, same breed, same sex, but they are able to have bones in the same room, be fed in the same room, groomed in the same room etc.  No aggression at all.  The one BIG difference is that there is 4 years between them and a clear difference in temperaments.

I do hope you are able to manage the situation, but fear you may have to decide to rehome one for both their sakes.

Hi
My pups are fed in the same room, but at either end, looking away from each other, as recommended by their trainer. They are trained separatly, but are walked & ran together. I take them out twice aday for a walk which leads to three fields that they run & leap around like a couple of looney tunes. They have always been well behaved when out. One does over shadow the other, but only when at home...if anything the submissive pup takes charge when out! In general they are both very well behaved & a pleasure to have. I am only guessing that the grooming  of them together may be the problem...I'm willing to eliminate all possibilities.
I did look into the breeds before committing, but to be honest I never came across the 'littermate' problem. This is the only problem I have come across with them, but it seems like a biggy! These pups are here to try us I guess......but in the end it's the dogs welfare that counts..not mine!
I will phone their trainer tomorrow & get her advice as she knows the dogs well.

Thanks to everyone that has helped me with their advice & views.

Anyone whose bitch has puppies is a breeder, and they then have a breeders responsibilites and if they allow the pregnancy to continue and rear and sell the pups they ahve a responsibility to the pups new owners.

This link will explain what the difference is between a responsible breeder breeding for the good of breed, puppy and you and the reason why casual and commercial breding is something not to be encouraged.

http://www.dog-play.com/breedercomparison.htm

As your breeder seems to have about as much useful knowledge as a chocolate teapot, I would contact, and join the breed club, and seek advice from those experienced in owning and manging the breed.

In most breeds where there is going to be a problem between bitches it is when they reach sexual (6 to 12 months), or full social maturity (2 to 4 years).  If you are already ahving serious spats these will escalate when they get older.

Depending on advice from the breed club I would consider rehomeing one of them through Breed rescue (if the breeder won't take it back) before fighting amongst them selves becomes a habit, as it will make homing them later a problem.

Yes me too but if one is willing to lead and one is submissive surley there isn't going to be two many squables between them.  Maybe if one is spayed at a later date it will help solve the aggression?

Warm regards Susan

Not neccessarily true susan, I kept a bitch from a litter and then kept another bitch from a litter a year later. The subservient one and younger one always got bullied and although I could see what was happening I kept saying it will sort itself out. I should have done something sooner but waited till the younger bitch was 2 years old and had no choice but to rehome her. I felt guilty as she had done nothing wrong but she was the nicer nature and felt she would be less of a problem for new owners. She never looked back in her new home and I was sorry I waited so long. Her name was Meredith hence my user name.

Hi, if you re-read my post again, I was v careful not to say "I think they are aggressive dogs" - I just summarised what I had found out online about them, from other sources, so I can't really be blamed.  I'm sure there are some lovely natured ones out there.  However there are lovely natured pit bulls too. 

Have a read here:

http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/bullterriers.html    (Esp at the bottom, Animal Aggression - this site also talks about having more than one EBT.)

http://www.faqs.org/qa/qa-8445.html   (Bit of a sick discussion about which dogs would be good in a dog fight - point being that the EBT is considered by many to be a match for many fighting dogs.)

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue that they all are or all are not aggressive, and I'm definitely not tarring a breed with the same brush.  I'm just saying that personally they are a breed I'm wary of, and part of that reason was what I found online about them when my friend said she was getting one.  I know there must be many non-aggressive EBTs and exceptions to this, but until I see that my friend has one of those exceptions, I will continue to be wary.

Hi Onetwthree i can understand where your coming from because if i see boys around my way with this dog or staffs while i'm out walking i will retreat the other way fast.  But with going to ringcraft and shows i've learnt that this dog in the right hands is a beautiful dog with children and dogs.  In my experience of this breed it just goes to show that in the right hands they can be a beautiful dog with all other dogs and people a like, as long as they are in the right hands, otherwise if they were so bad they wouldn't be shown in close proximity to other dogs or socialised.  If the owner knows to socialise which goes for all breeds there really isn't a problem it's when you get ignorant people who train them to fight, that's where the problems comes.

Warm regards Susan

Hi Susan
I agree it is mainly the owner & the rearing of the dog that counts. Growing up we had a GSD, my Dad was master, also I had one when I grew up. They were the most beautiful mild mannered dogs. The press gave them a hounding years ago & people are still nervous of them. A  Jack Russell or a Yorkie can give nasty bites, bu that wouldn't get in the news. Just the same old GSD's, EBT's,Staffies etc.gets the bad press & short sighted people will not look beyond this. You can always find 'bad' articles on these kind of dogs as it sells newspapers. And nowdays websites are created to whip up the 'fighting dog' talk for the sick & twisted people out there. I wish people would stick to decent dog sites & learn the better side of this lovely dogs.
I feel better now!

Anne

Hi Anne i'm glad you feel etter my isn't working.  We had a GSD to when i was a child he weren't the prolem it was my doermann i'll have to miss the u out.  Anyway good luck with your dogs,

Warm regards Susan

onetwothree....

Id take VERY little notice of anyone who is of the opinion that the Bull Terrier makes a good fighting dog!

Bull Terriers were NEVER bred, unlike other breeds, for fighting. They were bred for vermin control, and also for the show ring, if you want to get down to it, they are one of the first breeds i reckon, to be bred to 'look hard' but not nec. BE hard.

Any badly bred dog can have aggression problems, and anyone taking on two littermate bitches of ANY breed really ought to be aware of the likelyhood of a vicious powerstruggle between the two that may escalate as they mature.

The huge problem here is, that an aggressive pair of poodles is one thing. An aggressive pair of BT bitches is ENTIRELY another, and having been in the middle of an all out death war between a very small collie x gsd, and an even SMALLER BT x Whippet, id most certainly not want to experience two BT's who have decided they hate one another.

Having watched Bull Terriers togehter, and with other breeds, id say they are no more likely to be aggressive to one another than any other breed are, and a lot LESS likely than some!

Someone mentioned the wolf pack scenario and whilst generally im anti these comparisons, here i think it is valid.

Young bitches wouldnt be in a situation where an older bitch had to constantly put her down. Either the younger bitch would win and kill the elder, or more likely, the younger bitch would be sent packing.
Unlike our domestic dogs, the wolf is free to leave and find her own pack, not guaranteed for her, but possible. (Whereas its highly LESS likely a male wolf would be able to do that, he'd more likely live as a loner, but then thats WHY male's can live together more amicably than females!).

Em

Hi,

Just been reading everyones posts and although I do agree with the worries of 2 sisters raised in the same household and would advise myself not to get two siblings together, it does not always end in gloom and doom.  There are success stories too of sisters growing up happily together. You have them now so all you can do is hope that they will be two of the success's.

Both bitches will need seperate attention as well as training, a lot of fights can occur through jealousy and possessivness. Although my bitches are not aggressive towards each other they too volly for my attention especially when being groomed it is a very social and hyerachy display.  Grooming seperately as you have found out will stop any sniping.

But this will happen with a lot of situations.  The dominant bitch (Lizzy) must be fed first, groomed first, petted first to validate her alpha status. Molly must take the more submissive role.  If Molly does not take the submissive role (hopefully she will) you will have to seperate or re-home one, two bitches of the same dominance will fight and even kill each other.

Watch carefully, they will have play fights and maybe the odd verbal, but hopefully Molly will back down before anything gets serious.

I hope that they will have a happy ending, just be vigilant, it can work, I know people with siblings who love each other dearly and are the best of friends, it's getting the right two bitches together that counts.  Good luck, I have my fingers crossed for you. :-)

"It is generally not suitable to have a Bull Terrier of the same sex as a dog already in residence. Despite an excellent temperament of the sitting tenant they may sooner or later fight and providing they both survive one will need a new home, very upsetting for all concerned. Bull Terriers of the opposite sex will usually fit in quite well, but there can be exceptions and one must be aware of the need to guard against unwanted litters. Its is wise to have facilities available to keep the two dogs separated when the owners are out. One should never leave two dogs together unsupervised."

The above has been copied from the Bull Terrier Club website.  I think its fairly clear on how keeping Bull Terriers with another dog can be problematic and even keeping two different sexes has the potential for problems where Bull Terriers are concerned ;)  Perhaps the poster could get in touch with members of the club and ask for their expert opinion :)

The whole site can be viewed here
Bull Terrrier Club 

Good Luck

Hello Dill

Thanks for the EBT club details. I spoke to my pups trainer tonight & she agrees, like many of you that one has to be rehomed....how upset am I...then I took a look at the EBT club sight & it says you can keep 2 dogs separate, using cages etc....am I clutching at straws here????
I can't think of anything worse than see one of my pups go...so my brain is working overtime to come up with a solution! Any ideas from anyone??? The walking/running separatly is no worry nor the feeding. It's just general day to day stuff. Up to this morning they both had run of the garden, then a 'sun room' they can shelter in & where their bed is. Since the last 'ruck' one has had the usual garden etc. The other in the kitchen & lounge....then I swapped them round. I wonder if the caging would work whilst I'm at work...
In desperation, Anne

I know many people who keep certain dogs entirely separate, but it is very stressful to organise in the average home.

It will mean that one or other will have to be shut in a crate or locked in a room away from the other, and have to take turns, in the garden, with you etc, rather than have the usual priveledges.

It only needs one family member to forget who is in the garden, or open a door for disaster to strike.

I wouldn't choose that sort of life for me or the dogs in a domestic setting.

Somewhat easier if you have kennels and your dogs are kenneled for part of the day anyway, but I still wouldn't choose to do it, as accidents can so easily happen.

Hi
I'm thinking of all different ways to keeps my 2 pups! It's only me that lives here, so no mishaps by any kids!
But I do know what you mean..it's not quite the doggy life I expected either...I'll keep on thinking...not much sleep for me tonight!!

A lot depends on your house layout, and how your garden is accessed.

For example one person I knew had access to the garden through the living room and the kitchen.  So they put a fence in the garden dividing i to totaly and one coudl go out through the livign room and lived in there and the other lived in the kitchen and dining room with a companion (they owned two males and a bitch).

The dogs didn't fence fight, and transporting them was fine with a purpose built car cage with inbuilt divider.

It did of course mean the owner had to share his time between the two livign areas, but at least the dogs were not too confined and could have reasonable freedom.

I wish that sort of arrangement were possible in my house as I could then keep both sexes if I wished, though not living alone it could still be risky, as someone would be bound to forget that a bitch was in season.

Hi,

Glad the site was some help to you.

IMHO, In the same position as you, I would prefer to rehome now while the dogs are still young, heartbreaking though that may be.  I would never leave a dog such as a Bull Terrier in a cage unattended even for a short period of time.  They are incredibly strong for their size and very determined characters, if they decided they wanted out of the cage then they wouldn't give up until they were OUT!!  I'm sure that I don't need to describe to you the damage that this could do to the dog/s :(

The problem as I see it is that you may well be able to manage the situation, but sooner or later the dogs would come into contact with what could be disatrous results.  Accidents happen, despite best intentions :(  What if the dogs got loose while you were out?  Can you ensure that this could NEVER happen?   You say you have no children etc. but what about visitors?  can you honestly say that a visitor will never, ever let one of the dogs loose while the other is also loose? 

I don't envy what you are going through :(  I'm sure if you contact the Bull Terrier Club, the members would be willing to give you the benefit of their experience.  Its at a time like this that talking to experienced people in the breed can help enormously.

Having lived with two bitches who had to be seperated at all times, its no easy feat, not at all.

My house was filled with a horrible tension, plus my own anxiety that accidentally, one would get near the other.

These fears were in fact confirmed when one day a visitor left the kitchen door open, and the 'living room' bitch got to the 'kitchen' bitch, who was IN a crate at the time.

Seperating two bitches, even when one is IN a crate, is not at all easy, and i still have the scars today. The bitch in the crate ripped out and broke several teeth on the bars of the crate and there was blood EVERYWHERE, the other bitch got away with one broken tooth, but a nasty injury to a fron paw where either she had put it into the crate or the other bitch had dragged it in.

Crates are not designed to withstand that kind of abuse and had i not been there, the crate may well have collapsed, either squashing a dog or letting her loose!

Em

ETA

Id second getting a new home for one of them NOW, before things get worse. That way neither of them learn to use aggression as a first reaction, which if they stay together, they may well do, first with each other, next with other dogs.
If you can rehome one NOW, then in 18 months, 2 years, you may well be able to take on a different breed male dog as a companion for your bitch, and of course the bitch you rehome may well be fine NOW with an older male dog, which opens up the amount of homes she could go to.

Wait until she has half killed her sister, and you will find rehoming her very difficult indeed.

It is horrendous having to rehome one, but for the dog in question it really IS the best thing, and i hate to say it as im sure you know, but the dogs needs need to come first here, not yours.

Em

Hi all

Thank you very much for all your responses. Hopefully I have found a home for Lizzy at my Boyfriends Mum & Dad!! That makes me feel much better. They did want a rescue Staff, so an EBT would be great. Lets hope it's a big yes..I'll find out in a couple of days!! Still very sad to see Lizzy go....:rolleyes:

If you haven't already I think you should read this thread, as it gives and insight to the problems of managing dogs that fight, and the issues involved http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/forum_overview.pl?act=new;tid=83337

Hi Anne that's excellent if they take her atleast you will be able to see her when you want and your mind will be at ease as you know where she is, definitely a good solution.  Good luck i hope they give her home, keep us posted.

Warm regards Susan