Hi everyone,  I have been reading through quite a few of other topics & responds and would just like to ask......  My pups are now just over two weeks old and I am trying to get ready to know what I am going to start weaning them onto foodwise.  My dogs love science plan & nature diet, but when it comes to feeding the pups I am lost??  I obviously want to give them the best but I noticed that science plan does not soak down, it still stays quite hard nuggets?  So is there any thing else or another food someone could kindly suggest as being good.

Also can anyone advise me on the best puppy milk to mix in with the food.  Many many thanks........

Are you trying to soak the kibble in the milk, as in my experience this won't work. 

You need to soak the kibble in hot (not boiling) water first (an hour or so at least) and then mix in the milk. 

I like Nutrolac (made from goats milk) or litterlac (the usual modified cows milk puppy formula.

Thanks brainless, where is the best place to buy this milk from?  I read your reply to somebody else's topic regarding soaking the food with hot not boiling water,  I have tried this and left it for over an hour but still not like gruel how you described it best to give to the pups at first.

After it is soaked you mash the food with a fork and add the mixed up puppy formula.  Initially you use very little kibble, and graduly increase once they have the hang of it and want more.

I have never been a fan of Hills.  The Arden Grange range soaks down well and has a much higher meat content than most. 

My choice for Mum and pups is the Prestige or the Classic Puppy.

You can buy Nutrolac here: http://www.animal-health.co.uk/prices.html

and Litterlac from here: http://www.judgeschoice.co.uk/litterlac/default.asp

You could try giving the kibble a good battering with a rolling pin (food in a bag obviously!) or blitzing it dry in the food processor before soaking it - that might help too. Alternatively, James Wellbeloved soaks really well.

You can also add warm milk (Welpi or whatever) to the food and give it a good whizz in the blender. That produces a nice easily eaten gruel.

You can buy a bitches' milk replacement like Welpi or Lactol from most pet shops and vets.

i am feeding my five week old pups on science plan too - blitz it in a food processor or coffee grinder first ,then add hot water.works a treat they are loving it!previous litters have done really well on it.good luck.

if you are talking about what we call science diet that we have here which is little hard balls of dried food and are gnerally brown they are similar to the iams i feed my bitch and pups and i find them hard to soak as well what i do is start to prepare it about an hour and a half before hand i use boiling water and by the time the get it it has cooled down i also fill the bowl with alot moire water then food because the harder the pellet the more water it needs i have only used milk replacers on this litter with it and thats only because mum had to stop feeding them usually mum would still be feeding them as well as having some solids to so i dont do it in that case

and chucking it in a food processor is actually a really good idea i might even try that i cant believe i never thought of that

when i soak the hills science diet chicken and rice i use boiling water to soak it then i put it in the bowl and put a plate over it it seems to soak faster it goes completly soft

georgina

Yes I always put a plate over to keep the steam in.  You shouldn't use boiling water as it kills some of the vitamins, but just use the boiled hot water.

You might ask yourself what exactly do they put in science plan that it wont break down :(

Slee are you aware of Iams animal cruelty practices and their less than desirable ingredients??

Never pour boiling water over kibble,the manufactures have to add vitamins and such back in after the heating process which are killed by high heat(oven temps,boiling water)

Do chicken wings break down when you add boiling water :D
I'm sure anybody who has ever logged on to the internet has heard the Iams stories doesn't mean they will necessarily give it any credence :)
Boiling water is not going to do more than touch the upper surfaces before it has cooled to below boiling so I doubt it would damage more than a very small percentage of the available nutrients.  It certainly takes several minutes of continuous boiling to kill bacteria.

I just boil teh kettle first and then put the kibble in a bowl,a dn by then the water isn't boiling anymore :D

I think that is what most people do, even if you poured it pretty much straight away it's going to drop below boiling point on contact.  Can't see many people casserolling kibble :)

i dont actually boil it on the stove i boil the kettle and poor the water over the biscuits and let them soak
who would actually boil biscuits and seeings it soaks all nutrients that are taken out are left in the water and just about all the water is absorbed and whats left over makes a kinda gravy so its still there in the water

i am not aware of any animal cruelty i buy it because it was advised by my vet my girl is picky and is hard to feed this one she likes and the other one i did have her on was giving her bad gas and as for nutrients it is the same as the other food i have seen in the vets so are you saying all o those foods are bad too because that would then mean that just about every dog food in australia is bad
although i would ike to know about the animal cruilty what have they done?

They have never been found guilty of anything by anything approaching a court of law.  Several of the animal rights groups claim on their web sites that they conduct cruel experiments presumably to establish the efficacy of their foods but two things make me sceptical about that.  Firstly I can think of a lot simpler and less costly ways of determining the efficacy of their food and secondly these web sites invariably have something to say about big business and capitalism which rather gives you an idea of where they may be coming from.  If you do a search you will find many, many posts on the subject :)

so nuthing is proven i dont agree with it if it is true but seeings its the only food that doesnt give my girl bad gas and the only one that she will eat i will keep feeding her its not the cheapest food on the market so im not ignoring the CLAIMS which is all they are to save money but i am going to keep feeding my girl on it because if i tried to feed her on anything else she will eat enough to beat the hunger pains but wont eat enough to stay healthy and that is my concern nuthing has been proven and until it has and until i find a food my girl will eat (which will only happen if a new dog brand of food comes out because i have tried her on everything) i will keep feeding it

Slee type "iams cruelty" into your search engine,there's also a few threads about it here,but be prepared it's really,really terrible stuff :( I wouldnt give them a cent of my money, if there's a shadow of doubt or any bad publicity hounding a company for years and years like there has been with iams,i'm not prepared to take the risk!

because it was advised by my vet

You are aware that vets have LITTLE NUTRITIONAL training. Havnt you ever wondered why they recommend food with such horrible ingredients such as science plan and iams?? They contain BHA/BHT and ethoxiquin which is banned in the human food chain in Europe,but hey it's good enough for dogs :(

You have some great foods over there,better than here there is absolutely no need to feed low grade stuff.Have a look at http://www.naturapet.com,they make EVO,innova and california natural,you have these foods over there,we dont :( But as you said,youv'e tried all the foods,so i assume you had no luck with these??

If things are banned in the UK they are not going to be in the food are they.  Slee is in Australia not America.
Vets spend years studying anatomy, physiology and aetiology it is preposterous to suggest they don't understand nutrition.  I think you are mixing it up with the small input they receive from manufacturers about what foods are on the market but as they have access to all the information that you and I have I would imagine that is plenty at that stage.  You may consider the ingredients horrible but as thousands of dogs live long, healthy lives, as long as any time in history, on the very diets you disapprove of there seems to be no justification for your views that I can see.
Slee, as your dog is obviously doing very well on this food I cannot see any reason at all for you to feel obliged to change because someone else does not like the ingredients.

If things are banned in the UK they are not going to be in the food are they

Banned in the human food chain,NOT dog food! Science plan uses all 3 of those preservatives,obviously dogs dont deserve the same consideration as us :(

Dog food in the UK has to be made from ingredients fit for human consumption.  This has come up time and time again and several times links have been posted to the regulations covering this, suggest you do a search.

The meat in dog food has to come from carcases which have been passed fit for human consumption, this is very different to using meat which has been passed.  The dog food manf. use a variety of bits which humans would never eat, therefore its condition is not important

Whether or not the parts of carcasses used in pet foods are part of the modern westernised diet (different cultures are less fussy! ;)) is immaterial. If the animal was antibiotic-free, for example, then all parts of the carcass will be, not just the parts we choose to eat. The rest is also fit for human consumption. :)

I'm sure the same quality meat that goes to our supermarkets gets shipped to the pet food plants,i'm also sure they go through the exact same stringent inspection process too. I'm sure,too,that the diseased and decayed parts that would never be passed fit for human consumption are thrown away and wasted never to be found in pet foods I'm positive that the same quality of meat found in the cheap and nasty foods such as hi-life,bakers et al are also found in the more expensive products such as burns,naturediet etc.

Just makes sense doesnt it :D

Hailey, it's the whole carcass that gets passed as 'fit for human consumption' (or otherwise). Not just certain bits of it.

Who's to say what bits are suitable for pet foods? My brother has been to Chinese weddings (his wife is Chinese) where the honoured guest is given duck's feet to eat, as a delicacy. No doubt there are people silly enough to think that's wrong. :rolleyes:

As JG says there is plenty of good nutritious meat available that most of us humans would not find palatable.  I think you are perhaps being naive if you think all pet food companies will not be happy to use meat products that would not make it to the shelves of tescos.  But really it is all irrelevant anyway because the final outcome of whatever it is that dogs are getting from the very popular foods is obviously doing them a power of good because we have the studies to show that the dog population (who are fed in the vast majority by these large companies) are in very fine fettle living as long as they ever have in living memory.

tried innova but not the others ive tried what is in pet stores supermarkets and the vets so i dont know many other places to get feed other then that here and i havent heard of the other two alot of her problem is because i give in to her which has made her know she can put one over me i have lately been thinkinbg about this home delivery dog food service which delivery a 20 kg bucket of chicken mince and their own brand of biscuits free if you buy the 20kg tub of the mince which does technically work out cheaper but if she decides she doesnt want it then i will have 20kg of mince in my freezer with nuthing to do with it ill try and find those other two though because i have been up and down the isles in supermarket (foods cheaper) and ive gone to the pet shops(foods dearer) and the vets ( even dearer then the pet store) but none of them she will eat the cavelier that i got is on my dog but that is really only meant for small breeds because the cans are very small and expensive so the feed a cattle on it you would probably need and 8 of those tins a day and those tins cost about $4.00 so it would cost me over $30.00 a day to feed her on it and she hasnt seemed interested in the cavaliers food so far so id doubt she would eat that either i will check out thos thread and try and find those other brands for a biut there the other food she would eat was the pal but the gas was horrible

Just going to check, but I think Arden Grange may be available in Australia, will just check. 

Theri website is here.  If you contact tehm you can find out who the importers are, if it is available@
http://www.ardengrange.com/

Slee just so you can put these replies into better context :) Isabel has admitted on manier occasions that nutrition isnt top on her list and that she trusts the goverment to do the right thing by our pets! Myself however prefer to do tonns of research on the most important thing we can do for our pets "good nutrition",to many people it is unimportant,ingredients dont matter as long as their dog eats it and they go by price instead of quality :(

Iams is a low/medium grade food with a super premium price tag :rolleyes: You are paying for tonns of grains and by-products! The foods i listed above use all Human grade ingredients,no by-products and EVO is grain free,dont know how much iams costs over there but i dare say they would be on par with eachother,but the ingredients are worlds apart,you just can not compare them!

nOthing ;)

well after having a look at a few threads bu mainly after googling im not sure if i do want my girl on it i will try and find another  but why im searching for a new food for my dog i went to this website which was supposed to rate dog foods it doesnt but i did find something on there about chocolate my girl is a choco holic she once broke into the neighbours house and ate their easter eggs dut turns out chocolate should never be given to dogs i dont give it often but if i was eating some i would give her a bit but im gonna stop now i cant believe i didnt know that

if any of you can give me an idea about some foods to try her on i would apreciate it

I beg your pardon!  When have I ever said I am not interested in nutrition, I think you are confusing that with my lack of obsession with individual ingredients and what makes you think I haven't also done considerable reading on the subject. Just because people don't make the same conclusions when they analyse the same information do not assume they have not read it.
Anyway casting personal aspersions on those who hold opposing views is not good debating tactics and does not give any gravitas to your own arguements so it is best to stick to topic rather than vear towards the personal which would also be against TOS :)

I dont need to say another thing,all people have to do is read through the feeding archives,it is there for all to see ;)

ok what about royal canin i have seen it but my vet said it is very similar in taste to the science diet and my girl wont eat the science diet but if its a better quality ill give it a go they have a sample thing going at the moment on this website so i would have to pay for it to try it

also purina and super coat

Pro plan is mediocre,normal purina,not good :(

I dont know what foods you have available to you other than the ones i mentioned,but royal canin is definately a step up from iams and is NOTHING like science plan.However i do know that ingredients for the same foods differ from country to country,so you'll have to check them out for yourself :)

To narrow the choice down, dont bother with supermarket pet foods,they seem to be of the same low quality in every country :(

A little research goes a long way and you will soon learn to identify the good from the bad :)

If your dog is fussy than i would defo give EVO a try,i belong to alot of US doggy nutrition forums and they all rave about it,especially the owners of fusspots! Like i said it has NO grains,just meat,bones fruit and veg,check the ingredients out on the above website.

well i didnt really know what my girl would and wouldnt eat so instead i gave this place called bucketobeef in my state a call and they sent a distrubutor over a few hours later with a sample of everything and im not talking about small samples either their is about 2 cups in each different type of dry and about 1 cup of each different type of raw meat and im very happy to say for the first time ever my girl actually ate a dry biscuit without me having to wet it down first she loves them all but the ones with the garlic in them but garlic really isnt great for dogs anyway so i think i will change my girl onto this it is alot cheaper and it is delivered to my door i think ill put the cavalier on it aswell

and ofcourse she loved the raw minces what dog wouldnt want some raw meat so anyway ive put an order in and in a week i will be moving from iams to bucketobeef

ill even save about 50.00 a month too so thats anouther bonus ofcourse ill probably just spend it on more treats and toys

The majority of these sites are run by animal rights extremists who appear to be anti-capitalist and are against big business in general, not just pet food companies.

The alleged invasive testing and research occurred while Iams was owned by Clay Mathile, who bought Iams from Paul Iams in 1982. 

The most controversial studies were done by Iams researcher Dan Carey, DVM, between 1987 and 1995. 

Iams was bought by P & G in 1999.  P & G encouraged the publication of the research which apparently was not described in veterinary journals until after P & G acquired Iams. 

P & G developed a non-invasive alterative for information about feeding.  But that is not what you will read on these websites.   

well my girl did eat the samples of the new stuff they gave me and its better for her nutrition wise and cheaper so we both win i had been thinkng of changing her onto it since i got the pamphlet a couple of months ago but like most other food i didnt think she would eat it she particularly love their meaty rings and the all natural biscuits wich are actually a treat thing and not an everyday biscuit plus she gets  chicken and beef minse with it to and i still save 50 dollars that is quite a big saving when all she used to get were wetted down biscuits and when i compared the nutritional value the bucketobeef companies food where better the only differednce is you dont get fancy packaginig the biscuits come in zip lock bags and the minces and meat chunks come in a bucket with a white sticker on the front that just says bucketobeef alot of the brand name food even human food you arnt paying for the food you are paying for the bright colours and fancy lettering on the package

If Science plan is owt like it was ten yaers ago.... i handled a lot of it back then, bagging up samples for puppy packs.

Its VERY VERY greasy and very hard, so probably fairly waterproof!

IF i was raising puppies (which i am not), id be going with just the nature diet, let down and mushed up with water/puppy milk, or even lightly cooked minced beef (moving on to raw as the pups get older).

Em

Firstly, I would like to apologise for my rudeness in not saying thank you a lot earlier to evrybody's reponse, I have had a nasty cold and been quite ill so far from in the mood to do anytyhing especially preparing for xmas this year!

But wow, you have all given me plenty of reading to do..........Brainless thank you very very much I am receiving a delivery of Arden Grange tomorrow and have stocked up on Nature Diet for over the festice season well mainly for the pups.  I have stopped with the science diet and am hoping they will enjoy Arden Grange!!!!

I would like to take this opportunity to wish everybody and and their dogs a lovely christmas & new year.

Thanks again Emma