we are at our wits end.
and simply dont know what else to do.

our border  (lupin) collie x pup is 10 weeks old. we have had her since she was 6 weeks.
we also have another pup (pue) who is 3 weeks older. she is a lhasa x EBT and we have had her since she was 6 weeks old as well. pue has come on really well, we never here a peep out of her.

lupin however is causing us a lot of greif.
becasue from the time we got her up to now she has howeled everyday and we just dont know what to do.

the first week we got her she was a bit vocal but what do you expect from a young pup and we were fully expecting her to be vocal, missing her mum and litter mates. however she seemed to settle very well with our other pup and even took to tolet trainign very well. each pup started off in there own crete at nigth and i was getting up in the night to toilet them. we had a lot of success with pue doing this and so continoued it with lupin. however 2 days after getting lupin we were awokened by an awlful noise that can ony be described as a dog being throttled. we ran down and it was lupin and as soon as she saw us she stopped. we realised that it was her howl.
so stickign rigidy to the toleting we carrie don ignoring her howling that went on all night despite her being toileted.
she had a heat pad in her crete the kitchen is quite cool anyway so we knew she wasnt too warm. watchign her during the day she woudl howl for no apparent reasosn. she woudl be playing with the other pup then sit and howl. be on my lap then howl. so we put one big bed in the kitchen installed a dog flap and let the pups go our side as they wanted. the howlign did settle at first but then it came back with a vengance. in the end we took lupin to the vet but he could not find any physical reason for her howling.

its getting so bad now that our other pup sits there lookign fed up of lupin. she has company, she gets rewgular attention off us , she has been checked for pain. she just will nto stop the howling. i am home all day with the pups and they each have quiet time alone from each other, and still it make sno diffrence. lupin dosnt seem to be howling for any reason she will just sit there howling. you can offer her food , kame a loud noise to distract her but she just sits there howling.

the only time i have ever heard such a horrible noise was when i was workignin the vets and we had a dog in with epilepsy and he made this noise during an attack.

lupin is growing and looking well in her self.  for 4 weeks now we have been ignoring the howling during the night and she has been going out side for the toillet regardless. but she is still howling all night. and during the day.

any suggestions?

Hi, have you tried training discs or a can filled with a few pebbles? these you have to throw on the floor near to pup, the shock of the noise stops the howling, you have to ignore the pup, then calmly pick up the discs and carry one as normal.

Also only reward good behavior and ignore the bad.

This takes time and commitment from you but it will eventually work.

As you have come so far down the line ignoring the howling it would probably be a mistake to start a different strategy now.  I note from your previous posts that you worked for a vet and that you have rescued dogs before so you are obviously very knowledgeable with difficult behaviours.  You have also done all the vet checks to rule out illness.  I think all  you can do now is to ignore the behaviour just like your other pup is doing.  Behaviour that doesn't get any reward will eventually stop.

Just out of interest what is she crossed with.  Collies, in my experience, are not great howlers it just may be that she is crossed with a breed that likes to howl or simply make a noise, this being the case you may have trouble getting her out of it as it will be part and parcel of the breed she comes from.

Perseverance is definitely the key.

I think that after 4 weeks of ignoring her howling during the night I would have to agree with a shock treatment like jwilson.  I have had dogs and pups all my life, and howling and crying has always stopped after at the most 4 nights with the ignoring treatment.  Four Weeks is a horrendous time for this to still continue. She should have stopped by now. I would have said that she was just desperate for your company, but if she also howls when sat on your knee it has me stumped.

I have and always will advocate the ignore and reward treatment, it has always worked. Never once has it not!

But this pup is obviously not adhering to it for some reason. Try jwilsons theary it may work.

Just a thought, has she also been checked for deafness? I hope for your sake she outgrows this, otherwise get in touch with a behaviourist he/she may have some thoughts on why? It must be driving you and your neighbours crazy.

Did you get both of your puppies at the same time.

I remember you getting your lovely little Lassa cross on the 22nd of October age 7 weeks, that puts her round about 11wks nearly 12 weeks now.  You don't say exactly when you got your other pup but it must be still very young and I think the can of stones, training disks treatment may have a detrimental effect on her and isn't a particularly good idea unless your behaviourist recommends it.

To look at this from all sides can you tell us exactly how old she is and when you got her.  It may have a bearing on why she is doing this.

Actually I was thinking on the lines of deafness too.  Can you find a BAER testing session you can go to.  If you contact the Dalmatian breed clubs they shoudl be able to tell you where the nearest one is.

Howling is generally used by dogs to get the pack members together and is alsooften trigered by sounds, such as sirens etc.  How has pup ben with fireworks???

Hi Wolfman,

I'd agree with echo ;)  Negative measures (training discs/pebbles in a can etc on such a young puppy) are likely to be counter productive - if your puppy is nervous or insecure at all you wouldn't want to frighten her!  Your puppy is exceptionally young so although this has been ongoing for 4 weeks perhaps you should look more closely at what sets off the behaviour and if there are any specific instances which may make her feel insecure etc.

IMO patience and consistency is the key to resolving all but the most extreme unruly behaviours and such a young puppy can't possibly fall into that category.

Regards, Teri :)  

"Training discs may have a detremental effect" I have heard this a lot Teri on this site, the absolute HORROR of using this method, but where do you think it comes from behaviourist! :-)  The first and foremost training methods should always be reward and ignore, it works 90% of the time, but when it does not.  Using a tin filled with a few small stones is not going to damage a pup or dog or turn it into a nervous wreck.  Why do you think the rattle snake does this with it's tail? It is a deterant and a warning noise, a preditor will walk away as the noise is unnearving, it will not turn it into a quivering jelly and make it drop dead from the sound.

The tin and the small stones has the same effect on a dog or pup and it is a much kinder solution than a smack, stick, whack with a newspaper or one of those horrendous electronic collars, these methods certainly would cause a detremental effect. A sharp noise when howling or barking is more of a distraction than a fear factor. This is how a dog would learn in the wilds.

Nothing wrong with the shock method (can of stones) on a slightly older pup, used it myself not a problem.  Doing my maths here this new pup probably isnt as old as you think and until we know exactly how old it is I think it would be unwise to suggest anything until the vet/behaviourist has had another look at it.

Also please note we never advocate shock collars or any of the other methods mentioned above.

Hi Lyssa,

I didn't express "absolute HORROR"   Nor do I need a lesson on where the concept originated but appreciate you taking the time to respond :)   Personally I think it's using a sledgehammer to crack a nut - we're talking about a *10 week old puppy*.   I have seen them used to great effect but on older dogs with what I perceive as greater problems :)

>it is a much kinder solution than a smack, stick, whack with a newspaper or one of those horrendous electronic collars,

Not entirely sure why you feel the need to remark on the above

Referencing rattle snakes may have it's place when dealing with animals likely to encounter them hence having a natural instinct to avoid something making that specific noise - not, IME, a routine event in the UK - but this is an incredibly young puppy and with what appears to be a very inexperienced owner who has another particularly young puppy in the household.  Curiously both have also been acquired at an earlier age than would be recommended and we have no indication as to their characters, earlier socialisation etc so IMO it is inappropriate to recommend a method which is potentially unnerving and which the OP is highly unlikely to be familiar with.

Regards, Teri

  

  

Teri, I was not making a statement that you yourself found this horrific, you just happened to be the last poster, if you read my post again you will see what I meant, I have seen many posts on this site who seem horrified at this well meaning method, I myself have never needed to use it, but I know people who have with great results, yourself included it seems!

The reference to sticks, papers, etc. etc. was due to the fact that others having a problem like this and lets face it 4 weeks of none stop howling would drive anyone to distraction, no sleep, worrying, people sometimes go to the extremes I highlighted, if a reason can not be found, if the vet can find no solution, then a rattle from a tin, is worth a damn good try!! Who wants to spend another 8 weeks with a dog howling all night long. Could anyone else bare it???  She could take the pup to bed with her to stop it howling. (But in my mind that would be a huge mistake unless they wanted a dog to sleep in their room for ever and a day)

I also agree if this pup was acquired at 6 weeks, it is far too young, but it has another pup of similar age to bond with, an owner who may be inexperience but seems to be taking all the right steps and trying all avenues. She has even gone to her vet to rule out any probs, I personally just want to wrap the little girl up and cuddle her, but that does not solve the problem either.

The only door left is the behaviourist. Who will probably suggest what wolfwoman has already been doing!

Instead of criticing a solution to the problem, can anyone else here offer another solution, remembering 4 weeks of howling is driving wolfwoman to distraction. I am sure it is not the only solution, anyone else able to help wolfwoman?

Hi again Lyssa,

This is an info exchange and as such all members are equally entitled to proffer advice, ergo your invitation below is both unnecessary and somewhat offensive

>Instead of criticing a solution to the problem, can anyone else here offer another solution, remembering 4 weeks of howling is driving wolfwoman to distraction. I am sure it is not the only solution, anyone else able to help wolfwoman?

The OP has been offered suggestions to aid finding the best possible solution  

>perhaps you should look more closely at what sets off the behaviour and if there are any specific instances which may make her feel insecure etc.

The dates provided by the OP on both the acquisition and age of these pups don't appear to add up.  Hopefully, she will feel inclined to clarify the position and thereafter get more wide ranging suggestions :)

Regards, Teri

ps. to clarify on the disks/pebbles ref, you will note from my earlier post that I used the term "seen them used to great effect" - they are not something I've had to resort to with my own dogs :)

You obviously don't know me, things are only offensive if read in an offensive manner. :-)

Blimey, there was me whingeing today as the new puppy cried most of last night...despite warmth, comfort etc!! I think I would go mad after 4 weeks!! I'm hoping mine only lasts a night or two more! It didn't work putting him and Pepe together as Pepe got fed up after an hour! IMO using 'shock' tactics reinforces the reaction to the source of the noise and b) the pup is far too young to resort to that yet...sorry! All the best, hope you find a solution soon! :D Dawn.

teri,
why is it you are calling me an inexperienced owner?

fair ebougth i havent breed and trained for years, but i would not call my self an inexperienced handler of dogs.

both pups were a few days away from 7 weeks old when i got them.

both pups are from compleatly diffrent places and from a completly diffrent situation.

looking back at my first post i can see i made a error. pue is actually 2 weeks older than lupin.
lupin had her 8 week jab 2 weeks ago today.

yes the pups did come to me young.

pue was from a private backyard breeder whos bitch was got at by accident. the owner had given birth a few dasy before the bitch had, and as a result the pups and bitch were living out side and received no human interaction.apart from feeding times.

lupin god forbid, was in a pet shop up the road.

i went in there to get some naturediet and i could here a howling. now i knew they sold kittens in there before but never a pup.

when i went over loads of peopel were stood round a small cage in the corner. it was this little black pup.

i was disgusted and walked out.

i came back just before they closed with my oh and the pup was still there crying its head off in this cage. so i asked how old it was and htey said it was almost 7 weeks and had been off its mother for 5 days. so for 4 days it had been in this cage on its own.

at this point i bought the pup and was told nothign more than the mother was a border collie and they had no idea what the dad was.
i took her to the vet the next day and he said she loked about 6-7 weeks old and apart from a slight heart murmer which he said was quite comon in young pups she seemed to be in good condition. i wormed her and fed her and she has come on well.

looking back i was wonderign weather the behaviour for attention was lernt when in the pet shop becasue when she barked peopel came over to the cage. but i was sure she was too young to have learned thsi behaviour.

i honestly do ignore the howling, i think she may just be persistant. we have no idea what she is crossed with. soem people think a lab but she is not very chunky. she is taller than pue.

i have a container full of dried peas als well as other sensory noise items for my little girl liek a rain maker. and i have shaked them at her and although pue my other pup sits to attention lue just carried on with her noise. she does come when i call her though nd she can hear a pin drop im sure.

if we put them to bed and one of us has to go down stairs. she is howling as soon as a foot hits the stairs.

i will perservere of course.

here is a picture of them both playing in the living room together.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/clareparry7/Picture1494.jpg

the next photo says it all. lupin just howled before the pic was taken. look at pues face.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/clareparry7/Picture1390.jpg

You cant blame us for wondering especially when you posted pictures of your new pup at somewhere around 11th November when she was new to you.  Are you absolutely sure it has been four weeks that she has howled for.  I have talked with a lot of people around here who are thinking the same as me that there is something seriously wrong for it to go on so long and for her to howl when on your lap. 

Yes she could have learned it in a pet shop window, but you would expect it to stop when she was on your lap because she had got what she wanted, and I hope you have reported the pet shop for it.

I am not having a go, I think it is a wonderful thing that you have done taking them on and being brave enough to ask for advice but the reason I have not responded for a while is because I have watched the progress of your posts and pictures with interest and I find some of them confusing so I keep out of it.  The little Lassa cross is a darling and looks about 11 to 12 weeks but the collie looks very much, much younger. 

I am quite experienced as are the people who have tried to help you but without asking questions we cant possibly hope to know the answers

Edited to say that is not the picture I mean but I will copy and paste in a minute

Hi Wolfman,

I can only respond to what is written and, my apologies, but you came across to me as someone inexperienced - in part due to the fact that you have taken on two pups at the same time and additionally both of them were described by you as being under the normally accepted age to have left their dams.  That you have "rescued" these pups from less than desirable situations is commendable but, frankly, a tall order IMO for even the most experienced in ownership, training and behaviour :)

The poor start the(se) pup(s) have had will undoubtedly mean that a higher level of patience and perseverance on your part will be called for.  They are unlikely to have had correct rearing for their health, wellbeing and socialisation skills and so IMO will be more inclined than well bred pups to have hang ups about insecurity etc., even having one another for company (which you will obviously know is more often than not detrimental rather than beneficial).

I'm still not entirely clear on exactly how old the puppy with the howling problem is or how long you have had that puppy?  Even a week of a difference one way or t'other is very significant when dealing with what are essentially *baby* animals :)

If it were me, I would try and establish what situations the pups (separately) are most and least confident with and work towards building their behavioural skills slowly but surely without the use of noisy or invasive tactics.  The puppy who is continually howling has issues of some description but at such a young age IME it is best to establish the cause before attempting the cure :)  What is your assessment of the temperaments of both pups?  Both individually and when together?  Their character make-up will have a lot of bearing on how best to proceed (which you'll know).

You've taken on a difficult and emotional task and I wish you well with it but can't help feeling (having now read your circumstances) that one of these pups may be better served by being re-homed to a situation where it can have one to one attention, training and socialisation as the undesirable habits of one are likely to rub off on the other making things all the more difficult for yourself and the dogs.

I appreciate this is probably something you would prefer not to do but having a new puppy should be an enjoyable and rewarding experience for the whole family and puppy alike - which is not how things are coming across.

Best wishes, Teri

http://groups.msn.com/MYLIFEOFHORSES/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=32   

I love looking at puppy pics so when you posted this one I looked at the others as well.  I dont know where the post went but I still have the link to the phohos

Sorry if I appear totally thick but am I right in working out that lupin is 10 weeks old and you've had her for 3 weeks? During which time she stopped howling for a little while but has shortly afterwards started up again? 

Either which way it does sound as if the poor little thing has "issues" in a big way -I suspect mainly connected to the poor start she seems to have had. Am I right in remembering that you recently had to rehome an older dog too because of protectiveness towards your little girl? Only I'm honestly wondering whether you've got more than enough on your plate already (I realise you acted in the best intentions) and that as other people have suggested, lupin might do better in a home without another pup of similar age in it where she can have one to one attention.

well puepa is a strong , intelligent girl. she loves new experiences, she loves meeting new dogs. she is very independent and will often take a toy and go out to the back and chill. she isnt very dependent mentally on humans.

she has been a fast little learner and when you sit with her with a treat you can almost here her little brain whirring.

she is not over excitable i woudl say she had quite a mature head on her shoulders. and has taken everyuthing in her stride.

she has even learned that when i sat bed it mean to go to the crate and she runs in and hops in there and will sit there even with the door open at times becasue she knows she will be awarded for it.

she is better on her own , and she does find lupin a distraction. when i first got lupin i thought pue would love the company. but she is a peopel person rather than a dog person. and woudl rather learn tricks and earn rewards than run round mad with another pup.

lupin is very indiffrent. she seems to prefer to play with other dogs than with people. and she will come to me when i call her but she dosnt have the intensity that puepa shows even when puepa was as young as lupin.

lupin is more curious than puepa and will seek out new experiences and once she meets a new experience she is almost liek saying. ok seen that wow, what else can i find now.

where as puepa is more, right seen this, what is it,m why is it there what does it do. and will go back to the same object several times analysing it.

puepa took to wearign a coller very well and will now walkj on a lead no problems. lupin resented the coller and scratched at it for days .

if lupin has somethign puepa wants, then puepa will get it.

if puepa has somethign lupin wants, lupin will run around all excited, pouncing on puepa and making a big show about it,. but she rarely gets the object off puepa who is more calm and calculated.

lupin will go to anyone, where as puepa chooses who she goes to carefully and with caution, almosy weighing up iuf its worth goign to that person.

she sees me as master and will sit there for adges watching my every move, trying to read me.

lupin could not care where i was, or what i was doing, she is a peoples friend, if you have a warm lap shes yours.

I have to say I agree with Teri here.

This whole thing all started when you took on a young GSD (Benji), if I remember rightly, and he displayed too much of a GSD quality in that he became very protective of your daughter, and you then had to rehome him.  If I've got totally the wrong person here, my apologies, ignore all I'm about to say.  If not - Now, I fully appreciate that you didn't have Benji from when he was a young pup and he might have missed out on various elements of socialisation and perhaps what happened regarding his rehoming wasn't entirely your fault.  However, I also have to say that I think that most people would have seen a behaviourist if it came down to rehoming their dog or figuring something out, and the fact that you didn't post on here about how desperate you were with it, also didn't bode well.  GSDs are known to become protective - it is in their breeding.  There is nothing wrong with this quality if it is managed well, but I would agree with Teri's description of you as an inexperienced owner partly because you couldn't deal with this problem, and also because I don't think this quality of a GSD is entirely down to socialisation or early puppyhood experiences (when you weren't around for Benjy) but is something which develops as GSDs get older and go through adolescence.  That is - that it's probably something which Benjy would have gone through anyway, regardless of his early experiences.

Anyway, for whatever reason, let's accept that you bit off more than you could chew with Benjy and decided to make a new, fresh start and see that Benjy was rehomed.  Fair enough.

But...what do you do, but you buy one pup from a backyard breeder which you know has received no socialisation or human attention, and you buy a 2nd pup, which is almost the same age, from a pet shop, it's origins unknown. 

Firstly, there's the fact that in buying pups from sources like this, you are actually encouraging backyard breeders and you are also encouraging the pet shop to continue to sell puppies like this.  They wouldn't do it if no one bought their pups.

Secondly, I think for anyone to have 2 pups, it's a huge huge undertaking, even for an experienced owner and trainer to take on.  They might be able to pull it off, however.  But for someone who has had to rehome their previous dog, because it proved too much for them, to then take on 2 young puppies of almost the same age is madness.

Having 2 puppies is a huge challenge.  All puppies have their idiosyncratic problems and all puppies find some things harder than others.  One pup might take a long time to crate train but be good at toilet training.  Another pup might be the opposite.  If you have two puppies together, they will bond more closely to each other than to the humans in their house and you will find it much harder to train them as a result.  I remember you saying you were having problems with Benji's recall - getting 2 puppies together is just asking for more problems like that.

Sorry, but given that you had such a bad experience with Benjy and you wanted to get it right this time, I don't think you've gone about it in the right way.

yes you have the right person.
however i coudl of sorted benji, he was good for me. unfortuntaly giving him the home he needed woudl of ment leaving my oh and giving upo my little girl for adoption and obviously nether of these i could of done.

he was a sensertive dog that was one thign that would never of changed. and my daughter is loud and this is also one thign that will probably never change. i could of pursued trainign classes. but the truth of the matter remained that he was comign right with me, and if i was out aloen with him on in the hosue alone with him he was super.

but i rarely got the oppertunity to be alone with him.

i knwo where your coming from with the back yard breeder thing. i also knwo i was probably foolish to get both pups together.

i have taken on too much i knoiw i have. i hold my hands up and admit it.

however the pups are good with my little girl, they are nto fazed by her loudness becasue they have been round it since they were v young.

and my oh is better with them becasue they came to us young and with out handling so we were able to raise them to our life style.

it could work.

apart form the howling we are getting on fine.

Hi Wolfwoman,

Apologies - I've just realised that I've been addressing you as "Wolfman" :rolleyes:

I now realise that we've corresponded before under your previous user name of "benjismum" ;)  I'm sorry that things went so badly wrong with Benji that it meant he had to be re-homed although at a quick glance I'm not sure that his problems were unusual for a juvenile, particularly in that breed.

I don't want to harp on at you because you have had the sense to seek advice and clearly want to do the best thing but I really think you have to look at the bigger picture and the enormity of the challenge you have set yourself and your family up for.  I am a soft touch about any animal in need of a better set-up but I know my own limitations and I would not have taken on two such needy and possibly problematic pups within a year of each other never mind a couple of weeks.  In addition to them you obviously have Bethany to consider and naturally her needs will take priority - IMO the current situation for all concerned would be better served by you re-homing which ever of the pups you perceive as being the harder work. 

You mention that your pups are good with Bethany - but so was Benji :(   Just because they are a smaller package does not mean they will be easier in any way shape or form and now you will have the additional burden of unknown character traits inherited from goodness knows exactly what breeds on top of them becoming most probably overly bonded with one another and, being two bitches, potentially major issues with fighting when mature.

Regards, Teri

Hi wolfwoman,

Ok so we need to get to the bottom of why your pup is howling.  As we know dog howling is a form of communication and presence to other dogs.  This may have been a learnt behaviour from where your pup origionally came from, where she was surrounded by other howling dogs, so feels this is the way to communicate. The problem here is who is she trying to communicate with? After having her for 4 weeks and being so young, it is unlikely she is trying to communicate with her siblings or parents. It may be another dog in your neighbourhood, but I am sure you would have heard this. So we can probably rule this reason out.

Dogs also tend to howl when they are bored or lonely. If this is the reason behind her howls give her extra toys, lots of attention and more exercise to stimulate her. She has another dog for company, you seem to be doing all the right things, so this is also maybe not the reason.

The third reason for her howling may possibly be because she is picking up higher pitched frequencies from your tv or radio and is answering with her howling. Is there anything in your home which could be sending out a high frequency which she is answering. Have a look around to see whether you can find anything, it may even be one of your child's toys.

I have a bitch who used to howl like a banshee when one of my children used to sing.

In particular on a night listen to see if you can work out what she is answering to or calling out to.

Hope there is something here that can help you. :-)

today i have been more vigilent. i have decided to keep a diary to see when she does it and what i am doing at the time.
i dont want to rehome her but if i had to then it woudl be in her best intrest for me to help her througth this. i have the paitence fo a saint i know, but many peopel may of given up by now and she coudl of been anywhere.

unbelivably she has not been so bad today. i have an incline that she does it due to lack of sercurity.

she starts doing it when i put her in the kitchen with pue and shut the door becasue i am goin gup stairs for a bath or to see to my little girl. she goes off for 5 mins then stops, then starts again for another 5 mins then stops. and in the end she does stop for a while but weather its through exhustion or her realsiing im not coming to see her i dont know.
however the problem i face is that i have to go down and see to her at some point and im fidning myself in a saituation where i am waiting for a break in the howling so that she dosnt think she has called me and that i have just come into the kitchen regardless.

i have gone into the kitchen sometimes whilse she is howling but i dont say anythign to her or even look at her, she stops when she sees me but starts again when i shut the door.

i think it is her way of saying i want attention.

she does do it sometimes when on my lap but then i dont always give her attenton when she is there and she tends to suddenly look round see i am busy and so howls. and obviosuly she lernt the louder the better.

she is quiet now, however she did howl for 30 mins before stopping.

maybe she is lookign to me for comfort and reassurance and calling to me for it.

i will keep on with not responding and as long as she is not ill or in pain i knwo it will not do her any harm.

i knwo that if i was to let her sleep on my bed 24/7 she woudl probably never howl. but if i did that she would never learn.

i was thinking about a dap defuser or one of those ultra sonic thigns that emits a sound when the dog howls making them, want to stop. not a coller one. one that sits in the room. my other pup isnt vocal at all. and i also have 3 cats sleeping in the same room and i do often find all 5 of them sleeping together.

so she isnt lonley. however the other 4 dont feed her.

she is always excited to see me her tail wags and she whines and goes all silly when i open the door. so im thinking maybe it is a seperation type of anxiety. maybe she dosnt even liek my other pup and feels imtimidated by her.

Hi Wolfwoman, well this gives us all a lot more to go on than what you'd said earlier.

First - I don't think you understand what a DAP diffuser is.  It doesn't give out an ultra sonic sound, it works a bit like an air freshener and it gives out natural scent which smells like the lactating bitch (mother), so calms the pup down.  People can't smell it and you won't know it's there.  You can get them from your vets.  I think they'd be a good thing to try for you.

Second - what you describe is classic separation anxiety, but your pup is still young enough for you to fix this before it becomes a problem.

Definitely don't use any aversive methods, like training discs, high pitched or sonic sounds, spray collars or anything which might frighten her.  The way to fix this is to make her feel more comfortable and happy about you not being around.  Not to frighten her any more.

You are doing the right thing by not going to her when she howls.  But I would say - be very careful not to go to her every single time.  You say that sometimes you still come into the room where she's howling and you don't look at her, and she stops howling, and starts howling again when you leave.  Obviously she finds it rewarding that you have come back, or she wouldn't stop howling.  So she IS "calling" you back, or thinks she is.  When you leave the room, she thinks "Oh, I must call mum back again" and she starts howling again.

So, I would say - be really relentless about NEVER going into the room where she is when she howls.  This might be really difficult sometimes, if you need something in that room.  But you just have to think about the long term and not go in there.

It's really important that you pay her no attention when she howls.  When she is sitting on your lap and starts howling, put her on the floor and look away.  Ignore her.  As soon as she stops, turn back to her and praise her and give her attention and fuss.

The same idea goes when you are out of the room.  This is hard to explain, but here goes.  When you leave her in the room and she starts howling, don't go in.  When she STOPS howling, even just for a second or two - GO IN.  Don't wait another half an hour until the next break - go in as soon as she stops.  I think you need to hide outside the door, and as soon as the howling stops, quickly go in.  You need to be able to reward even a second or two of silence and you can't do that if you're the other side of the house - you need to be hiding behind the door.

It sounds to me like you haven't been being quick enough to get in that room the second she is silent.  Lots of practice of this, many times a day.

Another thing to try - go out of the room and INSTANTLY come back in again.  Don't close the door.  If she is fine, give her a treat and fuss.  Go out again and pull the door slightly.  Not much.  If she is fine, go back and treat and fuss.  Close the door three quarters, go back treat and fuss.  Close the door totally, go back immediately, treat and fuss.  Close the door count to 1 second, go back and treat and fuss.  Close the door, count to 2 seconds, go back treat and fuss.   And so on.

You might need to do many many repetititions of each stage before you can move to the next.

I want you to imagine that when she howls, you must dissociate yourself from her, get away from her, imagine she suddenly becomes radioactive or something!!!  When she is quiet, imagine that if you get to her fast enough you'll win a million quid. 

What I think has happened is this poor puppy has been howling away in a pet shop.  Obviously everyone is concerned to see a puppy howling and gives it attention and comforts it when it howls - all this just rewards the howling.  The puppy learns that the way to get attention is to howl, so now she thinks she had better howl to get any attention and company.

thankyou 123 for the lenghty reply. i will try a dap diffuser and will try to make the room more cosier for her. i find she sleeps liek a baby if she is alowed to sleep on somethign that smell sof me so i will start to put in an item of my clothign wrapped round a heat pad each night. also tonight i let her play and tire her self out before putting her to bed and she has gone in with out a peep and gone straight to sleep.

she was with me all night.

thats ussualy a good sign.

thankyou for the advice i will certainly be trying it.

Onetwothree's advice is excellent.  Another issue may be the closed kitchen door. What about a dog gate instead, where she can still see beyond and maybe still hear you up stairs and feel confident she is not abandoned, as may have been in the pet shop or wherever she came from before that. She is going to need lots of TLC.

Looks like a Staffie cross to me and that of course would go with the vocalisations that sound like a scalded cat/dog being throttled, as that is how over excited/attention seeking/playing staffords that I have met sound :D

Ditto, I can also see staffie in her.  Collie/Staffie cross, interesting combination. Two completely different personalities!!!!

and one of the most common mixes as both breeds or types are very common.  We get loads at training class originating from the dogs home.

Also unless the vet was very expereinced I woudl challenge him to tell the difference between a pup of 5 and 7 weeks of age.

I have heard of pups from accidental litters being given away (got rid of) as soon as they ae eating solids well, and are trying to get out of their box.

I must admit, she does look very small for her age, it is very hard to tell. In my day it was always collie and lab crosses in abundance, shows how times are changing, everywhere I look I seem to see someone with a staffie, I suppose it is inevitable that we are going to get lots of staffie crosses now, with all the irresponsible breeding going on. I'm expecting any day now to hear of the Staffiepoodle! Lets hope that this little girl gets a happy ending and is not re-homed because of her problem.

i will never ehome her becasue if her problem. i do intend to keep her and work through her problems. i knwo it is always a gamble when you take on dogs of unknown breeding.

i coudl see the collie in her but sis not know what else was in there. it is nice to hear that some of you by looking at her feel you can advise what else there may be in there.

what a weird combination of dogs hey!

a english bull terrier x lhasa apso and a staffy x collie.

when i first got lupin i put a baby gate on the kitchen becasue thats what i used to have on there when i had benji.
if anything it made her worse becasue she coudl see me and wanted to be near me and maybe the bars reminded her of the pet shop i dont know. but appears out of wite eventually out of mind.
unbelivably we had a very good night last night. she did not murmer.

i stayed up with her a bit later and did not make such a big fuss when i put them to bed. i just said bed as puepa will run into the kitchen when i say it and lupin follows.

they both jumoed into bed and i turned the light off and shut the door and we went striaht up stairs. and as there was no sound in the living room at all i suppose lupin settled.

today i have already starte don 123's advice and i have been going in and straight out and back in again.

im upstairs now and the girls are playing in the garden with the cats.

onwards and upwards. seems convienent that she has got better since i posted but maybe it was going to happen or maybe its just my body language is more porpusefull now, that i knwo the best way to tackle it.

Glad to hear that you will stick things out with her.  She is probably picking up on you being less stressed, and more secure in what you are doing.  It always helps to talk things through (or e-mail) with others.  Let's hope that things now go from strength to strength. Every dog has a different personality and needs different advice.  Mine have always loved my dog gate, one of my bitches in particular would be glued to my leg if I let her (bit like a stalker) but she is happy to sit and watch me through the gate, before I had it she would cry if she could not see me, so it has worked wonders for me.  I also have one in my hallway leading to the front door, so my dogs can see who I am talking to and so do not bark or get anxious, and sit nice and relaxed when I have company.

Look forward to hearing how she is growing up to be a grand dog!