Hi - I've just stumbled on to this brill site whilst searching for info on raw feeding.  One of my dogs, a border collie, suffers from colitis and rather than treat it have decided to attempt preventative measures. I've bought numerous books on the subject (raw feeding) and my brain is buzzing! You all seem to have a very laid back approach to additives (vitamins, minerals etc) which I find very reassuring, I've been measuring out half a teaspn of this - 1 ounce of that and the whole thing is taking over my life and my kitchen. My one worry is raw chicken bones and my hubby is constantly telling me of the dangers. Up till now I've cooked the chicken but it ceases then to become a raw diet and the valuable bone (calcium) is missing. Are there any chicken bones that are not fed to the dogs? and do they all have to be ground or can they be fed whole? Also I've trawled through all the pages and have not found any ref. to colitis. Any suggestions on prevention or treatment (naturally)?

Hi
If you use the search facility (click on search, top right hand of screen), type in colitis & you'll get loads of info
HTH

thanks Anwen I have to admit It's a little difficult finding my way around the site at the moment but I'm so pleased to have found you all and so many people willing to help with their advice.

>My one worry is raw chicken bones and my hubby is constantly telling me of the dangers.<

Don't worry, he'll get over it. :D My mum nearly died a thousand deaths the first time she saw me feeding my puppy a raw chicken wing but now she buys him a tray almost every week... I can't get in my freezer for chicken wings frozen in pairs!

>My one worry is raw chicken bones and my hubby is constantly telling me of the dangers.

Firstly, welcome to Champdogs :)

My OH was the same when I first started exploring the idea of a raw diet. He was horrified and was sure that both dogs would choke to death and told me that I would have to feed them to the dogs as he didn't want to feel responsible if anything bad happened :rolleyes: Drama queen! :D Well, lets just say his attitude has changed somewhat and at puppy class last night I overheard him recommending them to another puppy owner! ;)

thanks Phoebe & Shaynlola for the reassurance. I wonder if you could help me with another query that I have. How much meat do you feed per day? I have been giving by Border Collie 10 ounces per day he weighs 24kgs. He also has been getting brown rice and 4-5 ounces of almost pureed veg (put through a grinder). I give raw fish - sardines (again through the grinder) twice a week, and raw egg including shell three times a week.I usually top the lot with a dollop of yoghurt. If you can give me any more tips that would be great.

The 'old-fashioned' rule of thumb, when feeding the traditional meat-and-biscuit diet, was to feed a puppy ¾ ounce food per pound bodyweight, and an adult ½ ounce per pound.

I'm hopeless at maths,but the general rule of thumb is to feed 3% of an adult dogs bodyweight. Whats 3% of 24? :o

A puppy needs up to 10% of food per weight. How old is your dog?

Kizkel how come you put the fish through the grinder? Do you feed the canned variety? I just plop the the contents straight into their bowl. :) They also get RAW chicken necks or wings daily.

My dog is 5yrs old and weighs 24kgs (49lbs). I've been searching the internet for info and until yesterday all the results I was getting came from the states and included grains in the diet. The method I have been following is based on feeding a 65lb dog with the recommended amount of meat being between 12oz and 1 1/4lb on those basis I have been giving 10oz, I don't think that each dog requires the same amount and was going to keep a close eye on him and adjust the amount accordingly. I really want to get this right and am horrified at what I must have been doing not only to him but all the other dogs I've had in the past. I started feeding raw foods approx 4 weeks ago and I'm so pleased with how he has changed, he seems happier, he has far more energy and his poo has changed from huge grey smelly mucous covered mush to small dark coloured formed stools. When his colitis flares he passes pools of blood, so far, since he's been on raw food this has not happened and I'm hoping it's a thing of the past and that the damage is not permanent. I am feeding raw sardines twice a week and am wary again of the bones so thats why I'm putting them through the grinder. I bought a bag of chicken wings this am and my hubby has already pulled one apart to show me how sharp the bones are. HELP!!! you know the expression "between a rock and a hard place?"

I've been feeding my girl raw since she was a few weeks old.  No worries with chicken at all, but I didn't feed her the legs until she was 1 year old (just recently).  She also gets ribs and manages to crunch them with no problems whatsoever.  But she doesn't like raw fish or rabbit.  I feed tinned sardines, whole lightly steamed fish when they're going cheap and don't bother with rabbit, but she love half a sheeps head and trotters when I can get them.  However, I make a batch of 'gloop' every few weeks and in this gloop eg I put leafy veg usually mostly lettuce with some spinach leaves, cauli, cabbage and such, a couple of handfuls of organic oats, medium carton of live natural yogurt, a couple of eggs with shells, a couple of tomatoes, a orange, a red pepper, 1 lb of offal (liver\kidney\heart), 1 lb of mince beef, tablespoon of organic extra virgin olive oil, handful of sunflower seeds.  The recipe stays fundamentally the same ie  1/2 meat/offal to 1\2 other ingredients (my girl won't eat it any other way).  Whiz it in the food processecor and I freeze it into 200 gm (approx 7 oz) portions and she gets fed it approx 3 x a week.  

Hi, a good rule of thumb to start with is to feed between 2 - 3% of your dog's bodyweight (if adult) per day, therefore if your dog weighs 24kg you would be feeding between 480-720 g of food per day.

(the formula is 24/100 x 2 or 3) :D

However this is just a guide some dogs do well on considerably less and others need more depending on sex, time of year, activity levels etc etc etc.

Colitis is an inflammatory condition which develops when any animal eats something that does not agree with it.

It is not a disease in itself.

The way to avoid it is to feed a species appropriate diet.

I feed raw from 7 weeks of age; most medium to large breeds are perfectly well equipped in the dental department for managing whole chicken wings from this age; mine also get carcases at this age and when they get to about 12 weeks thighs, drumsticks and quarters are introduced along with all sorts of other sources ie pork, lamb, beef, venison, turkey, duck and whatever I can get my hands on which is cheap.

I have been feeding this way for nearly 4 years and none of my dogs has ever had a problem with any bones.  (What does your husband think they eat in the wild?)

They get some fruit and veg each day, whatever happens to be cheap and available.  Bananas and avocados for example they can eat as is.  The rest takes a couple of seconds in a blender.

They get fed kidneys, lungs and liver regularly with some live yoghurt (the only dairy I allow), raw eggs and raw or tinned fish.

I feed no grains whatsoever, again in the wild they would not consume cooked processed grains; there is no proven need for carbohydrates in a dog, even the pedigree website admits this! ;)

I add Keepers Mix, Vitamin C, Vitamin E and Fish Body Oils to the diet and that is basically it.

For more news on diets and specifically colitis etc please look at http://www.dogaware.com

Thanks everyone for all the advice. Today I gave raw chicken wings for the first time, he started to chew and then decided to swallow them whole, is this okay? I was looking forward to seeing him chew as his teeth are not the best set I've seen, he very rarely chews bones or hides and I have to clean his teeth, I thought the raw meat on the bones would tempt him but I'm now feeling much more confident in feeding raw and get a lot of pleasure watching the food disapear and knowing that I'm putting the best I can into him. I have three other dogs one other border collie and two dobermanns and I've started them on raw and they all give it the thumbs up.

Hi toheme...I'm interested in the comment you made about Colitis being a problem only in regard to what they are fed?? Do you think Colitis in a dog is different to that in Humans? This isn't a combative stance honest!! I'm just interested as I suffer from Colitis and also a retired Nurse and am interested in your view...thanks! :D All the best, Dawn

I held the wings with pliers at first so my gulper had to chew. Not sure if I was doing it for him or me :D

Anne

I had a fright this evening, gave him the wing which he immediately swallowed and got it stuck in his throat. I had to put my hand down to get it back, I cut it into three pieces and he did then chew them. If I do that for a while maybe he'll get the hang of it.

My sympathies ;)

It does give you a fright when you first give them a chicken wing and they do this. Although not all dogs do it.

My then 7 week old pup did this the first time I gave her a wing, so for a few days I started bashing them with a hammer (they were quite large for chicken wings). This caused her to chew them, in probably much the same way as you cutting it into three has done. I then gave them to her normally and although she still has the odd gulping moment, if she does it now, she regurgitates it and starts again, that's if her Brother doesn't get to it first :P

>Colitis is an inflammatory condition which develops when any animal eats something that does not agree with it.

>It is not a disease in itself.

>The way to avoid it is to feed a species appropriate diet.

It is true that some cases of colitis in dogs (can't speak for humans) are due to food insensitivities.  However, there are other cases that have been linked to intestinal parasites, bacteria, or fungi.  There are quite a few theories going about I believe, but I don't think there is a generalised theory that fits all dogs.

My bitch had colitis 8 years ago, antibiotics worked like magic pills but once she finished the course, it came back again.  We eventually got her sorted using maize and bran in her diet for a few months and it went, apart from the odd occassion when she ate red meats, raw and cooked, so needless to say she does'nt get any now.  She is fine with dry commercial dog food tho, must be all those grains, ;-) lol

My little sufferer was always better on diets that contained plenty of grain too. I never established what it was about other foods that set her off but having found she was very good on Chappie or Beta I wasn't inclined to experiment at all.  I'm utterly convinced stress was a very large factor too in her case, an episode would so often follow any upset.

I definitely think stress plays a part in some cases of colitis.  We had just rescued my girl at the time.  Bearing in mind, moving home, a new environment and she was a nervous wreak anyhow, I honestly believe being so stressed played a part.  Doesn't stress aggravate IBS in humans?

>The way to avoid it (colitis) is to feed a species appropriate diet

I've known of several dogs (of different breeds, let alone bloodlines) who get colitis if they eat raw meat. What species-appropriate diet should they be given? ;)

If a species appropriate diet means the one they have been eating for the last couple of millenium wouldn't that mean, in the case of the dog species, whatever their humans chose to give them? :)  Which in a great many cases would involve grains to a greater or lesser degree.

It's 12,000 years that dogs have been living alongside humans, isn't it? I'm sure you're right that there must have been a certain amount of evolution in that time to accommodate a more varied diet.
:)

It is certainly true that colitis can be triggered by a number of factors, just allergy sufferers are not universally allergic to ONE allergen, neither are those suffering from colitis all resulting purely from dietary factors in isolation.

For example many dogs, like people, are born with metabolic disorders of one degree or another or are deficient in some enzymes therefore even a "species appropriate diet" can prove unsuitable, just as it can for humans suffering from the numerous dietary conditions and diseases they are subject to.

one can only give short simplistic answers to the majority of queries that are posed on this board otherwise people would probably lose the will to live after a few lines! :D

One is, after all, not writing a thesis! :D

Colitis and associated conditions can be and often is multi factorial in nature and hence it requires looking at the concerned individual, its general health, any physiological deficiencies, internal and external stressors as well as diet.

Some people after all live to 90 on a diet of hamburgers, beer and cigarettes, I expect they have evolved to accommodate this lifestyle and it is eminently suitable for them, that is not of course to say it should be recommended for all ;)

There is, IME, no ONE answer to most things in life, hence the existence of boards like this where people can be exposed to a number of varying viewpoints. :)

Jeangenie,

Depends on who you ask.  Conventional wisdom was that dogs began to live with humans f/t about 15-16,000 years ago.   Most researchers now believe it is more like 50-60,000 years ago that dogs figured out living near or in the company of humans about made life a bit easier.   Theory is also that dogs began to seperate from their wolf ancentors about 100,000 years ago.   

Meaning a dog is not a wolf, has not been a wolf for a long time and direct comparisons about diet or behaviour are not valid.

Stacey 

Mmmmmm

But the length of time dogs have been eating a specially prepared commercial 'dog food' is considerably less!

Dogs to my mind (i may be wrong) are scavenger/hunters. This would be why they can survive and look healthy on a number of different diets, even those that strictly shouldnt be that healthy for them.

Whether its 15-16000 years, or 50-6000 years dogs have been living with humans, its only 60-70 years they have been eating 'dog food', so yes they have probably adapted to eating scrap human food etc, i highly doubt they have evolved in anyway to eat the grain based high sugar high fat tinned and dried foods we can now buy in the shops!

Em