Dog "behaviourists"...

Possibly the biggest growth industry in the pet 'market'.  I have deployed the services of two recently, and i did not just pluck them from thin air, they came accredited, etc, and they were both lovely ladies that spoke a lot of common sense..

The one thing that they didn't actually manage to do, was substantially reduce the specific problem that I had brought them in to address.  In other words, the problem remains as it did before..

I know there are no miracle cures to specific things, but it is a little dissapoiting when you are some £100 lighter, and no further forward..

:(

Were you referred by your vet?

Hi what problem are you having?  you can't make a statement like that and not let us the ins and outs?

warm regards Susan

Yes.  And I don't want to imply that either women were rubbish or cons, it's just that the area I brought them in to address remains as bad as it ever did.  And the bottom line for me is that is a failure, I am sorry to say..

Who were they accredited with, Cain?  Were they with the APBC?  Those are the only behaviourists I would recommend you seeing.

Also, what is the behaviour you are having problems with?

Behaviourists can only give you advice and instructions - they can't solve a problem for you.  You still have to do the work and the training and follow through on what they advise.

Yes, at least one of them was tied to that organisation, and they both did make a lot of sense, but the problem areas remain..

When we first got the dog, we took him for a walk.  When he saw a person, he would emit a mix of a whine and a growl, and be quite pully on the lead..  Because of his breed, this gave strangers the impression that he was aggressive, something that made walking him stressful, although he never shows aggression of any sort if/when that person is right up to me, it just SOUNDED aggressive..

So the first person came in, and she decided that she wanted to take himright into the town centre..

I thought she were mad, but to my surprise, he was really pretty calm, despite ALL of those people...

I thought we were making progress on that front, but he appears to have regressed to his previous status and verbals.  For instance, if we are going for a walk, he is that whining and growly way even should he see the neighbour.  If I walk up to the neighbour, or she or he knows him, that is not so bad, but it is a mare when it is a stranger and they hear him like that, coming toward them..

But for a time, he got better in that area...

Then he went to the vets to have a blockage removed, and since he came out he has regressed to all his previous traits..

But worst than that is his reaction to other dogs..

It is not that he has attacked one, but when he sees one he works himself into a state of hyper/whine/growl, that walking becomes a displeasure for everyone..

I have tried the general advice of just "walking him on from the problem", and all of that, and it's not that I fear losing control, it's just that he does not calm down, and no matter how many times I go out with him, his reaction is ALWAYS the same, no matter if the other dog is ignoring him or not..

Like I say, I was not expecting a miracle cure, but the previous person does 4 hours in yer house, her approach being that for the dog to pay attention to YOU outdoors, he really has to see you as the Alpah male, in the home..

I was doing okay, but she gave me some useful pointers right enough, but nothing which remotely helped! 

Hope that gives you an idea..

Did the behaviourist mention at any time 'extinction burst'?  this refers to the situation that occurs when you are trying to extinguish a behaviour, but because the animal has always found it rewarding in the past, it tries MORE of the same to get the reward?

How much opportunity does this dog get to mix with other dogs at other times?

He was apparently kennelled with others of his breed, he apparently was fine with other people's dogs coming to the breeders house.  But that is all taken on what I am "told"...

As to how much opportunity he has to mix with other dogs, at other times, well the answer is "none".  Because of his excessive hyper recation, there IS no other dog contact, the only thing that I did do, about two weeks ago, was I took him to a guy that has kennels and breeds BT's, but has other breeds too.

That was useless really, as he spent about 30 mins telling me about all the many trophies that he won, and about 5mins with the dog.  At least this one was a favour, so no more wasted money..

The 5 mins consisted of taking Cain to the kennels, inevitably he gave it verbals to the dogs on the other side of the gates, and they gave it back to him, so that neither proved anything nor did it help anything..

It might be worth getting your dog tested for thyroid trouble.
As this can cause behaviour problems.
A friend had a Boxer who they used to show (since have stopped) he
went into overdrive when at the shows it was like someone had pumped adreniline
into him. He was hypo excitable, frothed at the mouth etc etc.

On the first test he was borderline and on the second he did test positive for thyroid
trouble. He has been stabilised with medication for the thyroid trouble. They haven't
risked taking him to a dog show yet...
Make sure when testing for thyroid that your vet does a full thyroid panel test.
In the US they have a good vet called Dr Jean Dodds, if you type her name in a search engine
you'll find plenty of articles written by her about thyroid trouble.
Testing is in the form of blood test.

Is this thyroid problem common, I'm getting a little worried now after reading this and looking up Dr Jean Dodds on Google.  Should I take my dog to be checked or am I over reacting.

Thyroid disease isn't 'common' (but I suspect much of it goes undiagnosed :( ) but Boxers as a breed are more prone to it than other breeds......

Hi there,

Did the behaviourists mention a programme of 'systematic de-sensitisation' and 'counter-conditioning'?

Regards,
Patty

Hi, no I cannot recall either of those things, at least not in the way you have just decribed them..

Well, sorry Cain - no offence to you meant, only to the behaviourists - but if all you received was what you described, then I think that's a bit crap.

Most reputable behaviourists don't subscribe to the dominance rule of thumb (ie - a dog is doing something because it is the dominant/alpha male) - so the warning bells would be ringing for me as soon as that behaviourist mentioned the A word (alpha).  Dogs have dominance hierarchies but only within their species - ie one dog can be more dominant than another dog, but not more dominant or less dominant than a person.

The idea of taking him to the city centre seems a bit random to me - why?  Perhaps the behaviourist was trying a technique called flooding, where the dog is plunged right into high levels of the thing it finds fearful or worrying.  This technique does sometimes work but it wouldn't be my first choice, because it can be incredibly stressful for the dog and it can also make things worse, not better, and it's impossible to predict which way it will go until you try it.  There are less risky things to try first.

It sounds to me, from what you describe - a dog which whines and growls and pulls towards something - that he wants to go to the person or dog he's pulling to.  Well, the first thing I'd try was not rewarding that behaviour.  As soon as he started to whine or growl, I would walk away from the person or dog concerned.  For as long as he was quiet, I would walk towards it.  I think you would need to separate the vocalisation from the pulling, because you can't eliminate both at once.  So at first, work at eliminating the growl and whine and ignore the pulling (if he pulls you should still approach the person/dog, as long as he is quiet).

Another variation on that is - if he never shuts up and keeps up a whine or growl, so you can't ever approach the person or dog, then I would get a stooge person to stand somewhere and when the dog makes a noise, you stop walking.  Then you just stand there and be prepared to wait for ages.  The dog might whine, growl, bark, etc etc - both of you (you and the stooge) just ignore it and look elsewhere and stand still.  No dog can make noise forever (ha ha!!, we hope), and as soon as he is quiet, you quickly walk towards the person again - but the minute he makes noise, you stop and wait again.  Be warned this might take blimming ages.

One thing I would definitely start doing is giving people treats to give him, when you reach them.  You say that he stops all the whining and growling etc when he reaches the person - well if you do the stop start method above, you can also give your stooge person a big handful of treats and when you reach them, they give them to the dog (or put them on the floor for the dog).

It's hard to say without seeing him, but it sounds to me like he is not sure of dogs or people, and this is POTENTIALLY dangerous especially in his breed, because dogs which are unsure of things sometimes act to protect themselves from the things they are unsure of.  So you are right to try to solve this - definitely with people, if solving it with dogs proves too hard.

How do you think he would react in a large enclosed area like a field, if a person came in and he was off lead?  Would he whine or growl then, or would he just go and see the person?  THe whining and growling, I bet, would only happen on the lead and is resistance to being prevented access to something he is both afraid of and interested in.

I'm sorry that you seem to have seen 2 not-very-good behaviourists.  A behaviourist should work with you to draw up a systematic plan of treatment for the dog.  There should be progressive steps to the solution and you should be clear about how and when to progress from one step to the next - it doesn't sound like either of these did this with you...

I think you are right, it is more an action of wanting to get to that other person/dog than anything else.  In fairness, one of the behaviourists, she said that when he is out on a walk, and if he behaves like that, then when possible, take him straight home, as he has to learn that there are "consequences" to his actions..

I asked what I should do if I were just taking him out for a wee walk, and he got verbal like that with a neighbour, which he does.  She said "straight back in".  Fair enough.  But in reality, if I keep doing that, then I fear that he would never go anywhere, as I am not convinced that he is gonna get the message..

My partner was fully happy to have him as well, but I know now that she is not very keen to walk him, and i really cannot blame her.

Certainly, if I saw another dog coming toward me, I would do as you advise, and walk away, if he was verbal etc.  However, part of me thinks that by doing this, I am giving him the idea that there is something to be afraid of..

I think that depends on the dog and how much it is fear and how much it is excitement - and it's impossible to say that without seeing him.

Certainly what you need to do is get a stooge and manufacture the situation I outlined above (waiting until he is silent).

It sounds from what you say, that the behaviourists actually did make some useful suggestions, but you are doubting them, doubting if they would work, and have decided not to even use them.

That's what I mean by - you have to do what they say and follow through with their instructions.  I hear so many times people claiming that behaviourists don't "work", but the vast majority of the time people don't even try what they recommend and they pass judgement without even seeing if something would work....

Well, it is not that I doubt them as such, one of them worked with him for four hours in the home, but it is not really IN the home that the problem lies..

It's also pretty hard, from a practical viewpoint, to keep coming back to the house ANYTIME he displays this behavior, as he would never get out, and I would never get anywhere..

Believe me, I have put quite a bit of effort and time into this, and seem to be getting noplace :(

Yes, but that's what dog training is like sometimes - you seem to be getting no where and you see no progress being made, but you persevere day after day and eventually you see an improvement.  But if you're not consistent (and consistency is one of the most important things) then you'll get no where and make no progress.  You have to be bloody minded about it.

By the way, I'm not suggesting you keep returning to the house - I think stopping still, if you can get the other person to stand still too, would work better and make a clearer difference between making noise=stopping and silence=moving forwards.

I'd agree with OneTwoThree - this dog needs guidance on how you DO want him to behave around other dogs, but at the same time, he also needs an outlet for his inbuilt desire to play and socialise.  I'd give plenty of play sessions at home to start with, and has he gets more relaxed around other dogs, then he can start to experience short periods of socialisation with dogs of a known temperament.  This will help to take away the 'novelty value'

Hi there,

I've read with interest your posts because I have a dog that exhibits almost the same kind of behaviour.  I recently saw a behaviourist about it and she was excellent.  We went out for a 2 hour walk so that she could study my dogs behaviour.  At the end of the session she suggested 3 things.  One was to walk her on a head collar (I've ordered a Dogmatic but am currently using a Halti).  The head collar has helped enourmously as I can stop her "eyeballing" other dogs by gently steering her head away.  Two was to teach her the "watch me" command.  Everytime she starts barking and growling and pulling towards another dog I can a) stop her with the head collar and b) get her to concentrate on me rather than the dog by saying "watch me".  The third thing was to get myself to be more relaxed about it.  I was getting wound up and tense taking her for a walk and this was transfereing to my dog.  She also suggested that it's not essential that if we are out walking that I should walk her past another dog, if I'm unsure about her reaction I have the option to just cross the road or turn round and walk in another direction, no point in causing a confrontation if I don't need to.

I've still got a long way to go with her but I was very pleased with the £90 pound I spent and I got some liver treats free into the bargain :)

Good post, but how did you "make" yourself more relaxed about it..?

It's not easy of course but the Halti has made me appear to my dog to be more relaxed because she can't pull so there is no tension in the lead.  The behaviourist suggested ways to make myself appear relaxed, like breathing in and letting out a deep sigh so that my shoulders relax rather than being hunched up all time.  She also said to sing or hum a little tune or chat cheerfully to my dog.  I didn't realise just how tense I was becoming until I started taking her advise and now miraculously all my neck and headaches have gone. 

I used to think that the best cure for her behaviour was "flooding" which someone else mentioned but then I realised that this wasn't making any difference.  The less bad confrontations she has the better she is getting. If I think that a particular confrontation is not going to be good I just avoid it which also helps to keep my stress levels down.  If I'm confident that a confrontation is gonna go well (maybe she has met this particular dog before) then I go for it.

Hope this helps.

Hello again, Cain, I remember talking to you on previous posts, when you were about to see the behaviourist.  I haven't looked back to see what date it was but, in my limited experience, it can take months or even years to retrain a dog that reacts like this.

In my case, this was partly because I first had to try and reject all the dominance theory I got quoted at me.  I wasted quite a bit of time with the whole eating first, going through doors stuff.  My dog grew up very polite but it didn't change her behaviour around other dogs.

Eventually, I found a different understanding both of her motivation and of what leadership really entails.  Even when you are on the right track, the rate of progress will depend upon how much exposure you can give your dog to the problem scenario, whilst retaining control of the situation and not overfacing your dog for the stage you are at.

I've probably gone a bit woolly there, but basically what I think I can usefully say is that unfortunately it takes time to find the right solution and then it takes time to apply it, so don't give up.

You are sooo right Lillith.  Even though I've made progress with my dog in a short space of time today everything went wrong on our walk because of other peoples irresponsible behaviour.  My dog doesn't particularly like children.  A lady, her husband, her dog and her loose noisy child were walking towards us, it was a narrow path so avoiding them was going to be difficult.  I thought about turning round and going back the way I came but when I turned there was another dog and owner behind.  I carried on and everything seemed to be fine, she was growling but nothing more.  She approached the lady's dog and they were both friendly but then the child ran up and started patting her on her back and Sherry went a bit loopy at this point.  The lady and her husband said and did nothing to stop their child carrying on frightening Sherry and even started laughing at one point.  The child was screaming in a hysterical voice at Sherry to "shut up".  I marched off as quickly as I could but this sort of thing will make her take a couple of steps back again rather than forward, and so it goes on :(

I tried a Halti, but owing to shape of nose, it would easy slip off.  However, I got something called a Gentle Controller, been using that for over a month, and yes, it DOES offer more control overall, esp of the head.  However, while it might offer that, it makes no difference to his actual primary response, it merely gives me more physical control, rather than doing anything to make treat the symptoms, such as they are..

And I think it is the symptoms that need treated, if that is possible..

In all things, it's more effective to treat the cause, not the symptoms.

Hi Cain,

I agree with previous poster.  When I switched to a headcollar on our traffic-phobic GSD we both calmed down and I think much of it was to do with my sense of control - I finally had one!  Nearly two years later and he is much, much better although I doubt will ever be totally cool about busy roads.  But I do sympathise with the failure of the 'slow de-sensitisation' process - it got so that we only had to cross the doorstep never mind approach the road before he would start his performance (and GSDs are real drama queens).

By the way, glad to see you back on the boards - any more thought provoking topics?

PS (God, she does go on, doesn't she) I get my advice from these boards and books; cheaper than 'behaviourists' and I think more effective too.

All the best, Linda

I have learned more from this site than anywhere else, and I have read loads of doggie books!. I employ the same approach as "I love mutts" and it is working, not there yet but much better. It just takes ages and ages, now when there is another dog around mine will check out my response before deciding for himself how to behave, I act all happy even start singing inanely, it works. I dont care about looking stupid anymore. It made no difference if I ate first or let him sleep ion the bedroom! He just needs to know I am there for him.

Cain

>When we first got the dog, we took him for a walk.  When he saw a person, he would emit a mix of a whine and a growl, and be quite pully on the lead<

OK, let me tell you why your dog is doing it, maybe that will at least give you a lead. You have heard of reward haven't you? my guess is yes you have - well EVERY time your dog does it your dog rewards itself by doing it, in other words each incident is a positive reinforcement and the behaviour is likley to recure, which it does.

Sorry, can you rephrase this for me, please :)

Alan is basically saying that when the dog whines or growls and pulls to get to a person, what do you do?  (Often) - you continue walking towards the person.  So the dog gets what he wants and the behaviour of whining and growling and pulling is therefore rewarded.  And so it is more likely to happen again in future.  And it does.  And you reward it again by walking towards the person.

So really, this dog has been trained to behave like this.  And you have participated in the training.

Which brings me back to my suggestion above, of either stopping when the dog makes the noise, or walking away from the person or dog your dog wants to go to.  This is the same as the behaviourist's suggestion of returning to your house.

You would be surprised at how fast a dog does learn and make the connection.  Or there again, you won't be surprised because it sounds like you're not going to try what 2 behaviourists and several people on here are recommending.  You seem to want an "off" switch for this behaviour and you won't believe it when you're told from several different sources how to stop it.

"You would be surprised at how fast a dog does learn and make the connection.  Or there again, you won't be surprised because it sounds like you're not going to try what 2 behaviourists and several people on here are recommending.  You seem to want an "off" switch for this behaviour and you won't believe it when you're told from several different sources how to stop it."

Er, sorry, I feel this was a little strong.  I DO and HAVE took on board advice given, I was just imparting my experience of it on a dog forum!  

Sorry, maybe I was wrong, but I got the impression you weren't impressed with the behaviourists and you felt it was going to take ages to make the behaviour any better by walking away or going home each time.  Which implied you're probably not going to do it.

That's okay :)

Hell, of course I am prepared to take on advice, I am not quite yet rich enough to engage the services of people just for the sake of it - ;)

Having taken that advice, I was merely placing it on here, to report that thus far it was having little impact, or that in one case, the training was done entirely INDOORS, when in fact the primary problem is outdoors..

However, I am taking on all of this advice, it is hard when some of it conflicts, and both parties seem genuine..

So, from now on, when he acts this way, he will either be walked off, or he will be taken home.  He can get his excercise in other ways.

Likewise, on another thread, I wondered what to do with a chewing problem that might be fatal to him.  So, on the advice of three people now, I will crate him.

Steve

If you are going to follow this advice, you will need to ensure the dog does understand it is a consequence -ie you will need to maybe use a phrase such as "that's it" and then no more interaction but just go home/end the game.
Lots of training is best started indoors to recap, and get things "perfect", then that training is moved on to generalise it :) It's the best way to train - another time maybe the b. would come out with you and so on.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.

Lindsay
x

Cain, I'd also suggest that instead of walking him off or going home, he is likely to get the message a lot quicker if you stop moving towards the person and just stand still.  When he's quiet, move forward.  He makes a noise - you stop.  He's quiet, you move forward.  He makes a noise, you stop.  And so on.  That way you can actually get a lot more repetitions and "practise" done than if you go straight home or walk completely away.  Then you've only "practised" it once, instead of the many times you would practise it if you re-approached. 

You need to make the cause and effect really clear to him: IF you make a noise, THEN I will stop approaching the thing you want.  IF you are quiet, THEN we can both approach the thing you want.  Find the clearest way to communicate that to him - I think it will be the stopping and starting method. 

But of course that method is dependent on the other person standing still as well - there's no point you stopping walking, if the person he is trying to reach walks right up to you while the dog is making a fuss.  Perhaps you can target people waiting at bus stops - they're unlikely to be walking up to you.  Or use some friends. 

Hi Steve,

I had a GSD years ago that had similar problems, although a bit less extreme nonetheless equally worrying.  I got extremely annoyed after a while that some people suggested that I was too tense about it and was the cause of much of the dog's behaviour.  Horse poo.  This dog was born with a poor temperament and nothing was going to change it. 

I had this GSD from 8 weeks old and she was well socialized.  In fact, I showed her for a while.  Eventually I gave her back to her breeder after she became frightened of my other three dogs. This was after more than two years of living with them. 

My dog was fear-aggressive.  She was absolutely fine in a crowd - like your dog was in the town centre.  It has absolutely nothing to do with "flooding."    She could "disappear" in a crowd.  What triggered her was attention directed at her - the longer someone fixated on her the more likely she would react aggressively.  

Stacey

> I DO and HAVE took on board advice given,

In that case I think the title you've given the thread may have misled everyone ... or did you actually mean it? ;)

just thought I should mention that not all behaviourists will throw around words such as "counter conditioning, desensitisation, extinction burst etc" as these words mean very little to people who have not read up on the canine behaviour - hope that makes sense. 

I would ask your vet to recommend a behaviourist ideally qualified to a minimum of degree standard in a relevant subject.  There are several people out there calling themselves a 'behaviourist' and they do not have the relevant qualifications or experience (and I think the two go hand in hand). 

There are several 'behaviourists' setting up in my area at the moment and they advertise "all problems solved".  No mention of experience or qualifications or if they are a member of an organisation like the APBC ASAB UKRCB etc etc.

I would love to call my self a behaviourist but until I finish my masters I wont even think about it. 

Liisa, are you doing your masters at Southampton?

have pm'd you