Has anyone had an elderly dog which didn't respond to Metacam, ie no ill effects but no particular benefit either?

Its usually given for pain relief I gave it to my old boy for a few months before he passed.

Found it quite beneficial to him for his arthritis I was also given it for my pup a few weeks ago when she injured her toe it seemed to help as she was putting her foot down practically right away.

Is he on the right dose????
What makes you think it isnt having an effect???

Roni

Hi Roni and thanks for your reply.  My goldie is 13 years old and although in very good health for his age has been getting very stiff on his back legs, particularly getting up and laying down on the floor.  He still trots happily round the park though.  I've been down the normal route of glucosamine, cod liver oil, devil's claw etc but felt he now needed a bit more so somewhat reluctantly tried Metacam.

He is on the right dose - he is 35kg in weight so is taking that dose on the syringe daily.  The reason I say it doesn't seem to be working is that I've seen no significant improvement in his condition and when I saw the vet on Thursday, she said the effect was normally noticeable very quickly.  I think I've read that if it doesn't work within 10 days, you should stop giving it and I'm thinking of trying green leafed mussel extract as I've recently heard good reports of that.  It could be that my six month puppy is taking some of the benefit of the Metacam away although I do try to make sure my oldie gets peace and quiet when he needs it and most of the time he does enjoy their play.

Yes this can happen, it isn't uncommon at all. You may want to try Rimadyl instead. Obviously both can have very serious side effects, but then agan both can also work extremely well and really make a difference, especially in a dog of that age.

Hi Goldmali,  I really wouldn't be happy using Rimadyl so I think I will try the green lipped mussel extract next.

I used green lipped mussel for the early phase of my late dogs arthritis and it did seem very beneficial but was not so effective when the arthritis worsened.  We never attempted antiinflamatories as she had a poor gastric history but we did find a great deal of benefit from a couple of courses of Cartrophen injections.

I know of the side effects of rimadyl but I also used that on a regular basis with my old boy .
He had been through a lot during his life with different health issues having had an epileptic fit at seven  we found out that he had fluid putting pressure on his brain (scan) he was on epiphen and one time he was also on steroids.
It was only later on when we were advised by the vet to use metacam and rimadyl but they were very effective.
We look upon it as quality of life for him that it be pain free as possible he actually had him until the ripe old age of 15 and a half a excellent age for a Rough Collie we lost him only a few months ago.

Have you tried vivitonin???

Roni

I had enough problems worrying about giving Oscar Metacam and I would be scared stiff of Rimadyl after all I have read!  I think if his stiffness was affecting his life more, I would be more prepared to give it a go but he is still very active, enjoys his walks, loves his food - in fact will gallop down the hall to get it, so at the moment I'm happy to give the mussel extract a go first.

Your poor boy had a rough time didn't he but certainly lived to a ripe old age - it must have been a real wrench to lose him.

I've not heard of vivitonin - I'll do some research, thanks.

Hi Isabel.  I've started Oscar on the mussel extract tonight but I expect it will take a while to kick in.  I haven't heard of Cartrophen injections - will read up on it, thanks.

Hi there,
Just another thought for you. Have you tried a Bioflow (magnetic) collar? I used it last year on my bitch who has arthritis. The results were astounding. Within days she was rising with no stiffness :D I was actually able to remove her collar for the summer months with no ill effects. But last month the stiffness came back :( Back on with the collar and, again, we seen an improvement within a week.
Good Luck
xxxx

Hi colliecrew, Sadly the Bioflow collar (which he still wears) was another of life's disappointments for me :-).  Having read all the glowing testimonials, I bought him one several years ago but it seemed to have little effect (is my dog just weird I wonder?????).  It could be because he has such a thick coat.  Thanks for the advice though and I'm glad it works so well on your dog.

No I don't think your dog is weird :)  I was involved in an NHS trial about 25 years ago of magnatherapy which came up with a negative result.  I'm not sure what trials they have run since but I am not aware of this therapy being used by the NHS to date.  If anyone is considering tyring this I would suggest that they use a magnet off a cheap fridge one and attach it to a collar themselves as I do find it objectionable that these things are very often at an exploitative price.  My pensioner father paid about £30 for what turned out to be a cheap magnet stitched to a bit of velcroed nylon.  Another thing I find puzzling is that this kind of magnet field is regarded as wonderful and all curing and yet those created by pylons are regarded as able to kill a horse ;)

Hi Isabel,  Well there may be no proof but you can't deny that some dogs really seem to benefit from these collars and after all, THEY don't know they are supposed to work do they? :-)  The collars do seem a bit expensive but if they get results, it must be cheaper than using drugs like Metacam and they don't have side effects either, at least in such small amounts.  As you've probably gathered, I'm always keen to give non-drug options a chance first!

>THEY don't know they are supposed to work do they?

No, but the owners can be expecting it :) so the placebo effect is possible by proxy for instance you may ask or encourage your dog to exercise more which could be beneficial at the right level or your pet may even be responding to an improvement in your mood.
As I say I don't think it does any harm (providing it is not being done at the neglect of any necessary conventional treatment) but I would suggest people do not allow themselves to be exploited something that I think happens all too often when people are worried out their health or those of a loved one.

But Isabel, surely if your dog had been in considerable pain, there would have to be quite an improvement in the first place to either lift your mood or encourage the dog to exercise more?  As I say, I haven't personally found the collar beneficial (for Oscar that is, not me!!) but I am prepared to accept that it does help some dogs.

If I saw, with my own eyes, a dog in considerable pain (and not also on some other convential pain relief) improve with the use of one of these I would start selling them myself :)
I would say, as someone who suffers a lot of aches and pains from being in plaster for 3 years some years ago, that hitting the right level of excercise, for example, can bring a remarkable level of relief that you could easily put down to other factors.

LOL :-) :-)  Well, I shall watch avidly for your conversion Isabel!

Those collars are worth trying, certainly, but when I tried one with my old girl there was no noticeable difference in her condition. :(

Jeangenie, Have you ever tried the green lipped mussel extract for your dogs and if so, how long did it take to kick in?

The dog I tried the collar with died a few years ago, but I didn't try the mussel product with her, so can't help there I'm afraid.

Hi Annie

I use the palatable Rimadyl with my arthritic 11 year old bitch and without it she would be dead.

She was definitely in more pain than I would allow.  I am careful and follow the instructions such as always giving with food and she has 6 monthly checkups, which would be more often if I thought there was a problem.  I also give her glucosamine which does nothing for her on its own but seems to help alongside the Rimadyl.  I look at this way - if she was not having the tablets she would have been euthanasied anyway so the small risk that the tablets represent is well worth taking to keep her out of pain.   The main problem is ensuring the tablets are out of all the dogs reach as they all think she is getting something very special and would steal them if they could.

If you look at the side effects on just about any medication you may take, including asprin and paracetamol there are many side effects that would make you think twice

Well said christine I agree that is why I gave the medications to my old boy I mean at his age we would either loose him or give him a longer life without the pain.

Roni

Hi Kerioak (and Roni),  I would probably be more ready to take the risk if my dog's discomfort was such that he was no longer enjoying life - I don't feel this is the case at the moment as I've said above.  I do agree with you about listed side effects of any drug being frightening enough to stop anyone taking them but Rimadyl does seem to have a frightening reputation so I think I would need to be really desperate (ie life or death situation like yours) before I would consider using it.

Hi Annie,
Sorry the collar wasn't of help to your dog :( I have read that dogs with a thicker coat should have their coat trimmed around the collar area to help with effectiveness.
I just wanted to ask about the glucosamine you were using. A lot of glucosamines success seems to be based on the quality of the glucosamine used. Liquid is more beneficial than tablets I believe and a liquid with Chondroitin and Glucosamine seems to be the most effective. The 2 I have heard of are Cortalfex and Syn-flex which I have heard some very good reports about. The cortaflex is rather expensive though. There is a newer Synflex on the market called Synflex 1500 which contains White Willow Bark (from which aspirin is derived)
I think you are the only one who knows when would be the correct time to introduce conventional anti-inflammatories/pain killing drugs and admire your dedication to wishing to travel down the alternative/natural route where possible.
Good Luck
xxx

Hi colliecrew,  Yes I read that about trimming the hair but as Oscar's coat is really thick all round his neck, I would have had to either trim right round his neck or trim one area and then have the collar so tight so it wouldn't move.  You won't be surprised that I didn't try either option! :-)

As for the glucosamine, he is on Canine Maxiflex liquid which I think is the same as Synflex.  It is quite expensive but I think it has helped him.  My vet approves of it and says that even if I end up using conventional drugs for him, to keep this going as well as she feels it is beneficial.

I've never been one to rush into drug options as I feel they can cause as many problems as they solve and the last thing I want is to decrease Oscar's quality of life, rather than increase it.  Thanks for your comments and advice.

Hi annie I agree with your view too about knowing when is the right time to start using prescribed drugs.
my boy had so many problems that everyday was a bonus to us.
In the beginning of his ageing we only used cod liver oil and the improvement was amazing but that was around 8-10 yrs.
He still enjoyed life in his latter years he prefered to wander around the garden with little trips to the park but not venturing far from the car .
He still enjoyed playing catch and loved to chase the postman he could make it up that hall faster than me!!
He did have a limp and was stiff in the mornings so we decided that conventional medication was the best route for him taking his age into account we are so glad we did as he had him for over a year longer than we ever expected and in the end it was out of love for him that we decided that it  was his time.
~Roni

Our 13 yr old xchow is getting a bit stiff in his back legs now. I give him glucosamine & chondroitin, vet suggested it, don't know if it helps him but he isn't getting any worse. Will consider metacam if he get's any worse though.

Fish oils are a "conventional" medicine assuming the definition is that they have credible scientific evidence supporting them :)  and they are often recommended by vets and doctors.  Not all conventional medicines need a prescription.

Oooo picky....you know what I meant by conventional Isabel :-)

Well actually it was Roni who used it but I also use the term 'conventional' in the same way!

:D I'm just fearful people will think I am advocating "alternatives" ;)
Let the alternatives find their own scientific evidence :p but then of course that would make them conventional :D

I read that to Annie ....tra la la la la but accept that Isabel likes to split  hairs... :)

Roni

I just know what was right for my boy and glad that we understand each other!

I'm just fearful people will think I am advocating "alternatives"

Perish the thought Isabel !!!!! :-)

I've taken Oscar off the Metacam today.  I really don't feel it is doing him any good and could even be making him worse.  I'm going to put my faith in the green lipped mussel extract for now so hope it is as good as you say Isabel (then your reputation for recommending "alternatives" will grow even more!!)

:D

Annie Have your tried massage? I know that Hook isnt too bad in the back end yet, but he really enjoys having a massage and if he thinks it needs doing reverses in to me (he never was subtle!). I did start out doing it according to a book but quickly decided that actually almost any rubbing action gets more blood in to the area and warms it up, so it now mainly just takes the form of a good firm rub with a little relaxing oil. However there are some aromatherapy oils that could offer a positive effect for the artheritis and so may be worth a try. 

Hi Bluebell,  I do massage his hips but not regularly (Angus usually starts pulling my hair to get my attention!).  You're right, you can really feel the warmth building up and he seems to enjoy it. :-) I've never thought of using aromatherapy though - can you recommend any oils?

Hi Annie. I tnde to let the dog choose the oils, soiunds odd I know but they have an uncanny way of knowing what is good for them! I would offer peppermint, sweet marjorum, juniper BERRY (not wood as that can be toxic) all have anti artheritic properties and then I would suggest say ginger for its warming, coriander seed to stimulate circulation. oils should be mixed at a rate of about 1 drop to 15 ml (3 teaspoons)of a base oil such as almond (more dilute for a smaller dog) an a couple of drops offered to Angus, if he backs away it is not the oil for him! He may even choose to lick it, it dosent matter, he is just examining the scent really closley. None of them will do him any harm so long as they are diluted. (WARNING if you have cats keep them away from these oils, 1 drop of peppermint can kill them) When he has chosen his favourites you can add them together to make a mix, I would normally say use between 3 and 5 oils and since it is for massage I would say keep at the rate of 1 drop of oil per 15 ml of base.  Give me a shout if I can be of any further assistance.

Thanks Bluebell for your detailed info - without your advice, I would probably have just put some drops on my hands and massaged in :O.  I have a local friend who goes for this self-selection method with her dogs as well.  I didn't think she diluted it first though.  Do I have to dilute each one separately before I offer it to Oscar to see if he likes it and, once he has selected, are they mixed together and then diluted or diluted before mixing (sorry if I'm being thick here!)?  Also once mixed, how long do they keep? 

Hi Annie - just realised I had a brain storm and called Oscar, Angus :shock: Sorry.  The safest way is to dilute each oil seperately and offer them, the ones that he likes can then be mixed together. You can then start playing about a bit adding more of one and less of another. The ones that I have suggested are fairly safe, even if consumed by a dog, but as with all things it is just possible that any dog could have a reaction to a particular oil. The undiluted oils should have best before dates on them that will vary with each oil the base oils the same. Main thing is to try to keep them in dark glass bottles in a cool dark place and try to remember to write the shortest use by date on the container.  Quite importaint as the properties of the oils change with age and some can become toxic.

I know it will look quite expensive to start with, but it is nothing to the cost of a trip to the vets and their medication!

I would love to know what if any Oscar finds helpful

LOL Bluebell, I hadn't even noticed you had called Oscar Angus!!!!  Shows how awake we both are :D.  Don't worry, I call them by the wrong names all the time.  Thanks for the additional info - sounds very complex.  Think I will go on the scrounge and see if my friend has any of these oils so I can see what Oscar likes before buying whole bottles.  Where is a good place to buy the oils from?

Annie it is quite normal for me - i even get teh cats and dogs confused! I have PMed you the suppliers that I use, but I do buy in reasonable quantity!