breeders advertising thier litters on free ad sites
whats everyone views? I just wanted to know what people think i think i upset a few champdoggers in a post i did tonight

Not good!   A good breeder should not need to advertise in these papers.  Generally the puppies advertised there are out of pet/backyard breeding, with owners who might "mean well" but who know sod mary ellen about what they are doing!   Those are the good ones :(

The bad ones are the puppy farmer/dealers, whose puppies, if registered at all, are not registered with The Kennel Club :(

Margot

Reputable breeders have a waiting list for their puppies.  They may need to advertise for the last "wrong sex or colour" puppy but most on those sites are people who have produced litters to sell, as opposed to being well planned/bred/reared litters.  There are obviously going to be the odd exceptions, as in all things, but most families looking for a pet wouldn't know what questions to ask to tell the difference! :(

hang on a minute there are LOADS of breeders that ADVERTISE their puppies on this very site,are you saying they arent reputable?

i dont agree with freead papers & puppies though

I have just been on ad-mart and seen this ad.
The puppies will be Kennel Club Registered, Insured, Tattooed, Parvo Vaccinated, Vet Checked, Temperament/Character Assesed. They will leave us with puppy food & a puppy pack. Both parents, grand-parents can be seen.Both parents DNA tested Clear for VWD so all puppies will be Clear.
Help & advice allways from a long standing breeder who is also a Kennel Club Accredited breeder.This breeder is very well known and you would have seen them at every show not going to give there name but it goes to show big breeders do use the free ads may be they had a list and only have 1 or 2 pups left you dont know but you can not call the quailty of the pups just because they are bought from the free ad

I think that you will find that that might be the exception that proves the rule!   How many other litters of Dobes did you count?  How many adverts for pet shops? Alternataive Breeding Registers?

Margot

Hi Margot

>I think that you will find that that might be the exception that proves the rule!<

No, it doesn't - I think you will find it is the reason that a lot of Dobermann people don't currently think much of the ABS

I'm not saying that it is so with this advert but there are big names in the show ring who do do the tests but also churn out an awful lot of puppies ......

Maybe this breeder uses free-ads to sell her dogs because she breeds so many of them??? Strangely enough, until recently, her ads were on just about every ad-site in the UK!!!

How would any one become a Reputable breeder if they did not advertise how would they get there  name and lines out there the dog world is very mean to new breeders I agree about the backstreet breeders making the most of the free ads but looking at the kennel club puppy sales registration there could be some bad breeder on there too just because they pay for there ad who knows but if one was to look on there and see litters with champions in there pedirees and a new comer without any who would he public pick just a thought

They become known by having successful dogs in whatever field - whether it's showing, working, trialling, agility ...

Reputable breeders are those whose puppies are solid, good, healthy puppies.    Solid, good healthy puppies are advertisements themselves for their breeders, who will keep in touch with the new owners - who won't forget their names, and will say to friends - oh I got my puppy from .......    The fact that a first litter of puppies will be born is known to the owner of the stud dog, who will say, when their dog is admired - oh he has sired a litter on ............    The mother of the pups herself, will be admired and there is absolutely nothing better than the owner of the bitch saying "she is expecting a litter and the father is ......    If the owner of the bitch is a member of the relevant breed club-society, and has left his/her details with the breed club/society, then anyone enquiring about puppies will be told that so-and-so is expecting a litter on .....

If the bitch and the dog have been shown, then many other people in the breed, who have seen (and maybe admired) the bitch or dog, then they too will know.

Its called positive feedback advertising ;)

Margot

If a newcomer bought a quality bitch, showed her with some success, and if she grew a good representative of the breed, was guided by the bitch's breeder to chose the best stud dog, and rear a litter of quality pups, then the established breeder, possibly the stud dog owner and the breed club would recommend the pups to enquiring owners.
If someone buys a pet puppy and breeds from it without any help, knowledge etc, not health testing, just mating it to another of the same breed, then IMO that would not be a reputable breeder, but a puppy producer.  Those are the sort of litters, generally, that are advertised in such medium.
I do agree that The Kennel Club list is just people who have paid their money and is no way a recommendation, other than the pups are Kennel Club registered, which is only a start!

Oh i see now what you mean by word of mouth thanks

>How would any one become a Reputable breeder if they did not advertise how would they get there  name and lines out there the dog world is very mean to new breeders<

By working hard in whatever field they are in. For example in the show ring is you do quite well, show quality regularly and be seen to be putting as much in as out that is how you become reputable.

And sadly theese are the places that most families look.  For that reason I think that maybe good breeders and breed clubs should advertise there to ensure that the public have a choice and even from the advert (mention of hip scores adn eye tests etc should show up the ones that don't have them) can tell there is a difference and hopefully choose the real breeder not the puppy cash cropper.

I have always been under the impression that breeders should have waiting lists if they are any good and therefore would think twice if buying from someone that had to advertise.  I think if they were advertising in the right sort of publications I would not be so hesitant but if it was just in the local ad-mag or something I would definately think twice.

Just IMHO, and in reality have not done this myself.  One of my dogs was bought from someone who didn't think he would be any good for showing and as I only wanted a pet this was fine (although from reading others posts I am concerned that the puppy (now 3) did not go back to its breeder), and the other was a cross breed (saw him as a pup and could not resist!).

If I ever bought again I would be more than happy to be vetted by a breeder (as I now have friends that are breeders and can see it better from their position), and to go on the waiting list for the right breed of dog for me.

Sarah

Definitely not the free ads. With my first litter I advertised in a regional paper on the advice of a very experienced breeder and was well pleased with the suitability of most of the people who replied (better than those who came via the breed club in truth). Since then the pups have been placed well in advance. I have a Champdogs listing and again have been impressed with most of the people who inquire through it. I can't usually help with a puppy but can point folks in the right direction. Some people have e-mailed via CD just for breed specific advice which I'm happy to give and a few have come to visit the adults in the 'research' stage of thinking about the breed which is all to the good too.

Pardon me if I come across as thick but it's been a long day :D - what's the difference between someone buying a regional paper to look for available dogs of their chosen breed and someone buying a free-ad paper and doing the same? 

Not something I have ever done but as a first point of contact cant see a problem. As long as vetting from both sides is done after that, why not. Someone may have done all the health checks have great dogs but never bred before or be new to it and therefore not known enough to have a waiting list.
Amos

I breed very rarely and consequently have never had full waiting lists and have advertised for 2 of my 3 litters as you say it matters nothing as long as carefull vetting is conducted.  I have used the KC lists, Pet Plan lists (because I used their insurance and they sent me the bumph so why not?) and I have used regional papers.  I also used free ads for the first litter but never again because the quality of the enquirers were hopeless.  I think the regional papers are much more preferable because you can also pick where you would like to advertise your litters, for instance I only wanted my pups to go to rural homes so I used the two regional papers north of me in Cumbria and West Yorkshire which attracted exactly the sort of homes I was seeking :)

MOST reputable breeders do not need to advertise....especially after the litter is on the ground.They may need to advertise the odd 'left over' pup...but not whole litters as most will have waiting lists.
My main problem is when this site gets an enquiry and someone recommends a free paper or a site like epupz.The fact that these people are asking for help means they are not aware of the best way to go about looking for a pup but by asking CD we have the oppotunity to advise they look in the right place and buy from a reputable breeder who will help and avise and hopefully encourage responsible dog ownership.
Archer

Lots of people use these adds and I can tell you 100% a lot of well know breeders use the E&M and the Loot,and also use the internet.I buy the E&M every week and I have seen many well known breeders of all breeds in here.But that aside,at the end of the day not everyone wants a pup from show parents.I would'nt touch a few breeds myself if they were from a show background.It all depends what breed you are after and what you intend to do or not do with the dog.At the end of the day we can't all start out with waiting lists for litters,and to say other wise is quickly forgetting were you yourself started.Fair enough some people have a lucky break and get in with some people that help futher there career in the show world,help show them the rope's ,the who is who and so on.But that can't happen to everyone.Plus there are plenty of good breeders who have no wish to get caught up in the nastyness of the show world,they love there dogs.They breed good dogs,are 100% in it for the better of there breed.Of coarse puppy farmers will also use these methods to advertise,but so do a huge amount of good meaning dog people.It's up to the buyer at the end of the day to do there research on a breeder,and the line's his pups are from.

'Well-known' and 'reputable' aren't necessarily synonymous ;). After all, the Kray twins were well known! :)

:D

I can tell you 100% a lot of well know breeders use the E&M and the Loot
Would you care to name some?   I'd prefer reputable, not well known.

But that aside,at the end of the day not everyone wants a pup from show parents.
They may well not want to show their puppy but most people want a good tempered, healthy puppy who is a good representative of the breed.  And that's the least that they deserve! 

At the end of the day we can't all start out with waiting lists for litters
Everyone who does it properly certainly can! :)  If the person doesn't have some homes waiting, then they shouldn't be producing puppies!  There are enough in rescue kennels!  Usually poor specimens of the breed. :(

I would agree that there are some good breeders who don't show/work/agility/obedience their dogs.  They are usually people who are a bit longer in the tooth :), who've put in the years of learning in the past and don't have the energy to do the travelling now.  These people still have waiting lists because other reputable breeders respect their dogs and their breeding and will pass on puppy enquiries.

Most families buy a puppy every 15 years or so.  They have no idea how the dog world and genetics works.  But then, nor do many puppy producers! :(  They think that breeding pedigree dogs is just about putting a pedigree bitch with a pedigree dog, usually with no similar ancestors in their pedigrees! :(  We can only do our best to direct people to reputable breeders, and thankfully, most posters on this site do just that. :)

My point is nemesis that since these people are obviously not 'clued up' then we should direct them to the safest possible place to purchase a puppy...one that will offer life long help and advise.Sure SOME good breders advertise but 90% of breeders on hese sites/in these papers are not good breeders and suggesting these people go and buy from there is like a lottery...and you're playing with THIER money.
When I give advise I do not want someone coming back to me in 12 months saying that they followed my advise and they ended up with a pup registered with an alternative registration that looked likea cross and  had health problems...all of which are more than possible with many of the litters advertised on some of these sites/papers
Archer

reputable breders like these???

JACK RUSSELL MINIATURE PUPPIES *Boys & girls, pocket size, micro chipped & vaccinated, £250. delivery can be arranged

OLD TYME STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER PUPPIES *Ready now, buck skinned with white chests, beautiful markings, 2-dogs, 2-bitches, born 13/08/05, parents can be seen, good temperament, Dogs £350, Bitches £300

SCOTTIE PUPPIES *2 dogs, micro chipped & vaccinated, vet checked, £400 Delivery can be arranged

BULLDOG PUPS (EARLY BULLDOGS) **Very big boned, big headed with matching chests. Excel at personal property and farm guard. For a Bulldog that still looks and act like one

WOLF HYBRID CROSS SIBERIAN HUSKY **Excellent temperament, fully masked, beautiful pups, ready to go

HOT DOG KENNELS *Bassetts £425, Bichon Frise £390, Boxers £440, Cockers £350, Westies £350, Shih-tzus £340, Jack Russells £190, Rottweilers £390, Pomms £340, Staffs £375, Cavaliers £365, Yorkies £340, Labs from £315

Shall I continue?????

they sound like puppy farms and backstreet breeders just breeding for money

Exactly!

For your information, Hot Dogs has a pet shop licence and is under investigation by Essex Trading Standards and the Office of Fair Trading, their last case was adjourned, a new hearing date is eagerly awaited.  They purchase their puppies mostly these days from Ireland.

I have advertised in the free adds paper (local to myself).
Does that make me a bad breeder NO.

I was let down and had two puppies left from my litter.
I did advertise both on the net and in the local free adds paper.

I advertised that I would vet all homes.
My pups were KC registered, both parents were shown and quite successfully the sire went on the become a champion
a couple of months after the pups were born.
Both parents were heart tested in accordance with breed council reccommendations etc. The dam was temperament tested.
I had been a member of parent club and local breed club for 10 years at the point that my litter was born and had been showing
at that point for 12 years.

One puppy I homed through an ad on the internet the other through the paper.
The home that came through the free adds paper was a home that also had a rescue Boxer.
I vetted them and delivered my puppy to their home when old enough (as I did with all my other puppies).
All new families also came to view their new family members in my own home.
My pups went with comprehensive puppy packs and the knowledge that even though pups didn't live with me
anymore I was always there for their new families throughout the pups life. All pups were tattooed.

Yes I got some weird and wonderful (and not so wonderful) phone calls, there was a lot of weeding out of
unsuitable homes/families. In the end my pups are now 4 1/2 years old. I still am in contact with all their families and
luckily for me so far all are still with their original families.

Does this make me a bad breeder because I advertised my remaining pups in the free adds?
I don't think so. Infact the home that did come through the free adds is a wonderful one - my puppy is really quite spoilt
and is loved and treasured as she should be.
Perhaps if more reputable breeders advertised in such places people would be able to see the difference
from those that 'farm' and those that don't. Which would then help families who are trying to do the best to select a good breeder.
Not all have access to the internet nor the knowledge that we share here.

I have never advertised in a paper and hope that I never need to.

I know someone in my breed that advertised her litter on here but I think that they were all sold, but at least it's a different way to showcase your dogs and your breed.  Actually I think two of the people who advertised on here had already sold their dogs.

It's also a way of intercepting enquiries and making sure that they are directed to reputable breeders! ;)

I'm always amazed how many "older" kc registered puppies are up for sale in the ad mags etc. 

I have seen alot of puppies that are 12 weeks plus that are being sold due to "house move" or "allergies" or "unforseen circumstances" or have the tag line "genuine reason for sale" - I always wonder what could have possibly have changed in 4 weeks?!

And the amount of older collies up for sale is upsetting - people just don't understand how much work they take.

Well have you not seen adds in the E&M with litters of D.D.B.  FROM  CH. PARENTS and Ch. stud.Please don't try to show the bad side of things,this is a two way street.I can tell you 100% that there has been many people riped off by kennels that at the time were well known and said to have Ch. dogs.This was an American kennels but they were known world wide,had sold pups world wide,had 

This was an American kennels
Generally they have a very different attitude to dogs as pets and dog showing over the pond! 

Well have you not seen adds in the E&M with litters of D.D.B.  FROM  CH. PARENTS and Ch. stud.Please don't try to show the bad side of things,this is a two way street.I can tell you 100% that there has been many people riped off by kennels that at the time were well known and said to have Ch. dogs.This was an American kennels but they were known world wide,had sold pups world wide,had  CH. DOGS in many feilds.Then it just went mad,all of a sudden the pups they sold were all dyeing with inherentent problems.These were ment to be from health test'ed stock.Look at the adds you point out,,doohhhh.A fool and his/her money are soon parted.These are plainly to see :I think I'll give that one a miss.So tell me what you are saying,you should only sell pups if you are a sucessfull show dog breeder.I don't think so,look what that done for the British Bulldog,so don't preach to me.It works both ways,if you can't see that,well it's your loss then.I can tell you right now many people have got there dream prt from these papers,same as they have kennels.Many people have had a nightmare from these papers as with kennels.Show dogs are'nt always the best,I would'nt dream of buying a Show bred Mastiff.I like a dog that can move,is atletic and able to have a run around.I know there are many dodgy regs,I came across one of these when I was looking to buy my first dog,and Ican tell you I had the idea of what they were about very fast,the same with the dodgy adds.Are you really trying to say all the pups from these papers are crap?I got all my dog's from E&m,I can tell you this much I got 3 great dogs that are 100% healty are very atletic and problem free.I know plenty of people who have bought dogs from there are they are the same.I actually know some people who bought dogs from kennels and they ended up with a lot of health problems.A forum I go on theres a women who breeds and shows Boxers,she has been doing it many years.She wanted another 2 from different lines,and found the best line's out there that were ment to be very healty.One of the Boxers when health tested was lets just say fu*ked.It works eighter way.  

Well I advertised my litter in a local paper. To give me a bigger and better choice of owners. I only wanted my pups to go the best homes.
Can I just add there were people who came to see my pups who said I gave them alot more knowledge and was more honest to them about the breed than the "reputable breeders".
Good people do look through the ads in these papers.

Charmed one - who is the breeder advertising in the free adds??? - I am sure I have seen that advert in many a time throughout the year - if it is the same breeder they cant be that reputeable if they keep advertising, they obviously have several litters to sell.  Personally I think these sort of adverts are best avoided. 

Big Breeder does not equal good breeder!  And just because they are KC accredited does not mean they are any good either.

Edited to ad - maybe alot of 'breeders' advertise in the free ads because they dont want to pay money for advertising. 

I have recently found out the difference between well known and reputable, believe me there is a HUGE difference!

There are some good points on this thread though as to why a reputable breeder should advertise in some of the free-ad papers, e.g. so that the GP have a chance of choosing the reputable breeder over a puppy farmer/BYB, so the breeder has the greatest possible ammount of buyers to choose from. I think though that it may come down to what breed you are advertising, if for example, you breed Labs, nearly every farmer under the sun will be producing Labs so the point about the GP picking a reputable breeder over a farmer is valid, but with some of the rarer breeds, for instance, SWD, I am not for one minute saying we should 'hide' the rarer breeds away, but do we really want a reputable breeder advertising what could turn out to be 'the next big thing' with all of the chavs, and therefore falling into the hands of puppy farmers?

BTW, I am not picking on these breeds they were just examples that came to mind!

You do have to pay to advertise in these papers if your puppies are below a certain age (17 weeks I think if I remember correctly)

I dont think using a Ch sire isneccessarily a sign of a good breeder. I know someone with a ch. gundog...her 1st show dog & she went a bit over the top allowing him to sire 90 litters.....some of them by rather dubious bitches!!!!

:o

>The dam was temperament tested.<

How does one go about temperament testing a dog? Is it done by the owner or by a third party?

It should usually be done by a person unknown to the pups but who knows what they are doing and looking for.  This is one of the more common tests where Dobermanns are concerned http://www.volhard.com/puppy/pat.htm

My oldest two bitches were temperament tested by unknown people to them.
They were tested at 12 months plus.
They have to undergo a variety of tests in order to pass. Both are temperament tested
and graded excellent.
The tests are various and test the reaction of the dog in different situations - crowds/children/non confrontational dogs/loud noises etc.
They were temperament tested at the parent clubs working day which is held yearly.

I would never buy a pup from any breeder that advertised using free ad's newspapers etc........ I have a bulldog and we was on a waiting list to get him.....

Surely the reason why a reputable breeder would not advertise in the free-ads, like loot or www.freeads.co.uk or E&M, is that they would want their puppy buyers to be actively searching for a pup of their chosen breed, not just surfing any old ad until they might see something which just takes their fancy on the spur of the moment

The loot ain't actually free,they make out it is.But when you try put in an add they eventually let you know it's £35.00 or something like that.My mate sent in an add it sais free to advertise,you just have to pay for the comformation text.He got that and was told he would receive another text saying when it would go in.Then a week later they rang him saying it actually ain't free it's £35.00 for 2 weeks plus you get 1 week free.So it's just a way to sucker you in.But me personally don't see anything with wrong with advertiseing E&M or loot,nor with buying a pup from eighter one.