Does every breed need to be hip scored before being used to breed from? Are there any breeds that don't seem to have a problem with their hips? If not, how did we get to the point where every dog needs to be scored? Surely no one is scoring wild wolves? Is this something that has come about because of bad breeding? Or is it something to do with us breeding for what we want?

Not trying to cause any arguments or anything just another thread got me thinking about it! :D

Apparently some captive wolves have been hipscored when they were anaesthetised for other things, and yes, some have HD too.

So does HD come from the wolves, or is it something in modern life that is contributing to it?

It's a normal fact of life. People can have HD too, remember, except in us it's called 'Congenital Dislocation of the Hip', and all newborn babies are examined for it (the simple test involves manipulating the legs to see if they're correct).

Oh I didn't realise HD was the 'dog form' of CDH! Now I think of it, it is the same - hadn't made the link! :rolleyes: :D

But you can't do the "click" test on puppies' hips :D

Margot

It to date hasn't been found in Racing Greynounds BTW

It's rare in babies though. The Ortolani test is done on every baby because it is quick and easy to do, not because CDH is common. :)

in some breeds very few are scored, so the breeders claim its not a problem in "their" breed.HOWEVER how can they know if they dont score?

ive said it before,i think the "breed average" is not the breed average unless all dogs are scored,especially when vets advise owners NOT to send off bad plates

Why hip score a breed where clinical HD is absent? Isn't it better to concentrate on problems the breed DOES have?

how do they know? i know my dog has cr*p hips,but nobody would be looking at him, or watching him move.

>especially when vets advise owners NOT to send off bad plates

I have heard of this before, I don't understand why they don't though. Does it cost more to send them? I have heard that most vet's haven't got a clue how to score a set of x-rays, so surely to get the right answer from the people who do know is what scoring is all about?

The other thing I don't get is that I think I am right in saying that the greatest percentage of people who score their dog's are intending to breed from them, which considering they have even got the dog x-rayed says a bit about their breeding practices, so why would they then accept the vets advice and not send them? I would have thought that the sort of breeder who does score, even if it doesn't look good, would still send them, so the results can be gathered and then used to improve the information they have on their own breed?

If the xrays aren't sent off, Natalie, you don't have to pay the £78 to the BVA for the scoring!   

I've had all ours hip scored - well apart from Thor - he should have been scored, but between making the appointment and going up to Cambridge, he had an accident, and had to have his hip pinned.  This meant that his hip scores would not be "accurate" and would therefore be invalid.    This means that I would never think about using him/offering him as a stud.

Neither Beau nor Vinnie have been used for breeding, but we might - so that's one reason.  The other reason is that it is good for the breed if we can have as full a complement of dogs scored as possible, to get an overall picture of the breed.

Margot

£78 quid?????????????????????????????????????????????? :OOOOOOOOOOOOO

Sorry - senior moment - £78 to Cambridge Vet Hospital £28 ish for BVA ! :D

Margot

going to say ,youve been RIPPED off! phew!!!!!!

I paid my vet £140 plus the BVA charge making it nearly £170 :(

>Neither Beau nor Vinnie have been used for breeding, but we might - so that's one reason.  The other reason is that it is good for the breed if we can have as full a complement of dogs scored as possible, to get an overall picture of the breed.

This is what I mean, surely no matter what the reason is for getting them scored (I used the example of a breeder because if they are scoring, then generally they ae a little bit more than a BYB, and therefore you would expect would want their best for their breed and so would send the plates off even if they were expected to be bad!) but no matter what the reason is for getting them scored, to see a full picture of HD in the breed, surely all plates need to be sent off, so why are the people who keep the breed alive not doing this?

it costs a extra £25 ,not much extra when youve already spent £75 on xrays!!!my vets advised me not to have mine sent off,but i did anyway

Michelled, if you don't mind me asking, when you sent the plates off that the vet had said not to bother with, did they come back good or bad? You don't have to give an exact number if you don't want to, just good or bad will do!!!

he said they were bad they were bad!!!!! 21-21=42, so wheyyyyy above the breed average!!!!! however i wonder how many people wouldnt have sent them off,certainly pet people would have been guided by the vet.

Thank you! :)

Don't vet's realise that they could be messing up a whole breed? Do they get told to tell people not to bother sending them in?

i dont know! i know its not uncommon though :( they seemed to think it was acceptable & were quite suprised when i insisted :(

the other reason i believe that all dogs should be scored is so reasearch could be done on inhertitance could be complete,then we can understand this problem more

:( I know vet's can't know everything about everything, but I think they could help out with certain things and the average pet owning house hold that knows only basics about dogs. 

From stories I have heard of some vet's and my own vet basically telling me that I didn't need to get a dog from a 'posh breeder' because there are still no health garentees, I find it hard to accept that they have had years worth of training sometimes, it is either that or the good old common sence plays no part what-so-ever!!!

I agree very few beagles have been scored, but there ahve been some pretty high scores in those that have.  they ahd to come from somewhere.  The thory used to be that it was a large bred problem, but judging by the Cavaliers and Shelties that have been scored this isn't true at all, though the effects are probably worse in a larger dog.

Deerhounds are not normally hip scored as clinical HD is absent in the breed. Of the few deerhounds that have been tested under the OFA scheme 100% were normal.

so 100% have 0-0=0 hips.?

i guess deerhounds must be quite similar to greyhounds,maybe they have similar genetics.

The OFA doesn't score them like the BVA & as far as I can see less than 10 deerhounds have been done in the UK as they don't appear here so the problem in the UK is an unknown factor

An excellent OFA rating is equivalent to the Old BVA cert which means my 0:0=0 GSD would be classed the  same as a dog with a 1:3=4 hipscore !(forgot to add the 3 can be on just one part too !)

Look here

i cant actually SEE that tiny writing!!!!! so will take your word for it!!!!!;)

lolol Michelle click on the magnify icon & you can enlarge the font !

Well it is unknown as far as hip scores go, but if HD is clinically absent what benefit would there be from scoring? If a few clinical cases did turn up then I'd be all in favour of testing becoming a sine qua non immediatially. That's what happened ~15 years ago when  a few cases of PSS appeared. In a very short space of time every well bred deehound litter (wich thankfully is most of them) was PSS tested.

Surely that is like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.  Isn't it better to ensure HD does not get a hold in the breed to the extent that clinical cases are seen, but to keep a watch for higher scores and avoid mating two together and letting it get established?

Brainless, that's one of your funniest typos! :D :D

There you go just enough time to replace the 'I' with a 'U' making it shutting :D

Oh :p to you! :D :D

That is a POV but why HD in particular? It is only one of the many heritable diseases known in the dog. We could indeed have a situation where everyone tested for everything that can be tested for but imho it would be a bit pointless. Should a single case of clinical HD turn up in a deerhound I'll be on the bandwagon for testing that I was on when a very small number of PSS pups turned up. Or to take a related example, despite what you read written by those that assume ALL giant breeds have severe HD, HD and elbow dysplasia are rare in IWs (OCD shoulder is commoner). But they ARE known. I've never bred IWs but if I did I would definitely want my bitch tested and to use a tested stud because the disease is clinically present and can be tested for.

Basically as HD has been found to affect all dogs, and wolves, not jsut certain breeds as at first thought, therefore it is unwise to be blase about the chances of it creeping into a closed population such as a breed.

But it hasn't. To quote MM "The Greyhound evidence is that tangible X ray proof of over 1000 greyhounds randomly selected with no evidence of HD"

I may be wrong, but I'm not aware of HD being a problem in the saluki, borzoi, whippet etc. As I said in another post the exception in the sighthound group is the IW where it is rare but clinically present, probably because of the extreme weight and/or the infusion of dane and other breeds. So if I ever bred IWs I would test.

There are cases of HD in all breeds according to BVA veterinary  records except the Racing Greyhound(not the KC verison). These might not be KC registered dogs or dogs from breeders who show or are members of the various breed clubs. The lighter the breed in structure the less clinical signs are evident & also dogs like my very muscular BC also show no clinical signs even though they may have severe HD. Other dogs with lower scores & uneven scores may show signs that to the GP vet look like severe HD but on closer inspection are not due to poor muscle tone &/or construction !

Out of interest are any of the sighthound group apart form the IW listed?

The BMS for the Saluki is 5, from a range of 0-14 (37 scored). So there have been no 'clinical cases', but they've still been x-rayed and scored.

Interestingly, the IW has a BMS of 6, from a range of 0-86 (47 scored) ... a similar BMS to the Saluki, but a very different picture overall.

Thanks for that.:)

How are these few cases going to be noticed? Most pet owners don't realise their dogs are obese - they're not going to worry about reluctance to exercise (Hoorah! We don't have to take Fido out any more) and have him x-rayed.

When I first came into my breed I was told we had no hereditary diseases (no one tested for anything) . Nearly 30 yrs later, we have HC & some HD throughout the breed. Complacency is very dangerous for any breed, particularly one with a limited gene pool.

I think you would find that the vast majority of deerhound owners would notice a reluctance to exercise. This is a very large breed that has thankfully never become fashionable and in my experience most owners who succeed in getting a pup have thought hard and done their homework. Certainly when one puppy from litter that I reared and placed  for a deceased friend deveoped intermittent lameness in a foreleg last year, the owners regularly travelled over 100 miles back and forth to the nearest Vet School and spent a great deal of money on X-rays and investigations, only to find that no diagnosis was ever found and the lameness disappeared without treatment.

My BC with severe HD was asymptomatic & never had any sign of having HD. So why did I have him X rayed-because I know this can be the case & sadly my boy had a 68 hip score

:rolleyes: You sound very much like some Cavalier breeders-my dog has no symptoms of SHM so no need to MRI scan My boy has no signs & if I had been the same I could have allowed him to be bred from, however he does have SHM & so as he will never be bred from he won't be passing on to future owners

When they find the marker genes for HD I wonder if you will bother to DNA test ? probably not IMHO

I'm surprised so many deerhounds die so young if they are such a disease free/genetically healthy breed. I've read of lots dying before they reach double figures Why is that ?

There was someone in my breed who didn't think that her dogs were good and nor did her vet, they came back with the lowest score in the breed, total 7!!  Just shows doesn't it.

I think that all breeds will have some level of HD and always will have.  My breed was supposedly free of all problems, but there are some with hip problems.  Luckily their country of origin is accepting this now and scoring their dogs too!

If a breed isn't tested for different things then they can't say that they are problem free in my opinion!

As long as a dog is hip x-rayed before they are bred, why should it matter if they are scored or not?

If a dogs x-ray plates look acceptable, they are sent away and they dog will subsequently be bred from, thus hopefully adding good hip genes to the gene pool (a bit simplistic I know, but just to keep it relevant to my point).

However, if a dogs x-ray shows that the hips are not good (you don't need to be an expert to recognise very bad hips), they are not scored, and the dog is not added to the breeding gene pool.

How can this be detrimental to a breed? The dog with bad hips is eliminated from the gene pool, whether they are scored or not and the breeders continue to use lower scoring dogs in their breeding programme.

To take this argument further, if every dog, good or bad was scored, over a period of time the BMS (breed mean score) would raise to a higher level than it is at the moment, encouraging people to breed from higher scoring dogs. This is because their dog may have a higher hip score than is presently acceptable, due to the average being raised by including all the high hip scores.

This would result in dogs that would have currently been discarded from the breeding population being included, due to the migration of the BMS to a higher average.

Not the best long-term answer to breeding out a problem!

Provided breeders are sensible and strictly use dogs at BMS maximum, or preferably much lower (not forgetting that the hip status of a dog is not the be all and end all, temperament and soundness are much more important), the hip status of a breed should improve over the generations.

Not sending in high scoring plates is actually beneficial on two counts, the BMS will continue to move downward, and the owners bank balance will not be hit so hard!

Snomaes

Yes but he inherited the genes form dogs that are being bred from, the more dogs scored shows a truer picture of the produceing record of the ancestors, and whether extra care needs to be taken when mating to his relatives.

This is why progeny evaluation is so useful when assessing sires, it isn't much use until it is too late in numericaly small brees, but in the numerically large ones a sire that scores well itslef but produces badky would be best avoided and his progeny not mated to anything but very good scoring mates from the smae background.

This is why it would be acceptable to breed from a higher than averge score if the parents, granparents and siblings scored well (using a low scoring mate) but woudl not be acceptable if there were a lot of por scores int eh relatives.

This is why as large a cross section of the dogs need to be scored to get a true picture.

So what that for example the Dobe mean score is only 10 (range 0 to 80+) when so few of even those being bred from are scored.

Not picking on dobes here, but they are a breed with which I am well aquainted, and very fond :D

I feel happier with my own breed where out of 120 pups born on average a year, we are scoring over 20 dogs a year, a pretty representative portion and all the breeding stock.  Our breed mean is 13 to 14 with a range of 0 to 61)