Hi Gina, I’ll try and explain as best I can but I only know the basics.

Genes transmit from one generation to another characteristics of all our ancestors.

If a dog is black and all its ancestors for the preceding 10 generations were black, except one which might be for example brown then there is a very high probability that most of that current black dogs offspring will be black.

But because there was one brown dog involved in his ancestry there is a probability that he is carrying a ‘gene’ to reproduce a brown dog, the % of brown, if any at all, will be lower than the % of black reproductions but it is a possibility and it is because he has ‘inherited’ a ‘gene’ which has a coded signal to tell the cells which build an embryo to become brown.

If a dog is carrying a genetic fault then that fault can be passed on to all or some of its offspring.

Hip Displacia is common in many medium to large breeds here in UK, it gets progressively worse as the dog gets older and many dogs are put down or live a life of UNNECASARY misery as a result.

What happens is that the recess into which the ball joint of the hip fits is usually a bit to big for the ball joint, as the dog moves it wears and the dog has pain, is weak and as age goes on it is often prematurely put down. This is a genetic hereditary condition. In other words some or most of the ancestors had the same condition and through selfish irresponsible breeding it is passed on to the offspring, by the breeder, to make money.

Another common genetic hereditary condition, especially in Chows. The eyelashes grow inwards because a common gene in Chows sends electronic messages to eyelash cells and instructs the eyelash cells to grow inwards into the dogs eye instead of the normal healthy eyelash.

The lashes then start to rub on the dogs eyes, if not operated on it will cause physical trauma and can blind the dog. Again it is the money grabbing breeders who are to blame, they don’t care except for the money.

With the Chow it started to spread to epidemic proportions in the 1930’s when a Chow carrying the gene for entropian won Crufts supreme championship and breeders bred for money, but Spaniels and some other breeds suffer from it a lot.

The breeders know and just don’t say anything, they want the money of course, only dog and owner has to put up with the misery, and, no the RSPCA does not do a single thing for this deliberate inhumane breeding causing unnecessary suffering.

If dogs carrying these genetic defects were not bred from it could be bred out, BUT, in the case of Chows there probably are no Chows which do not carry the gene and so they would have to breed out the Chow altogether, as well as Spaniels.

So, to put genetic faults or problems into the context of dog ailments. Genetic defects which cause problems and sometimes early death are not illnesses. Illnesses are something which the dog catches or is hurt in an accident, most can be treated but they are a consequence of daily living.

Genetic characteristics are the hereditory make up of the dog, human, bee, daisy etc they are born that way and nothing can be done to alter the gene, but, it can be bred out.

I have Dobermans. In Germany and most of Europe ALL Dobermans and some other breeds cannot get a recognised pedigree unless the breeder has a breeding licence for the dog(s) which they breed from. They MUST have this licence from the relevant breed club or the dog has no value and no one would buy.

To get a breeding licence to breed from a Doberman in Germany and Europe ALL breeders MUST pass a breeding licence test.

Make no mistake about it, the breeding licence test (ZTP) is not just a formality in which you enter your dog, have a few words with the tester and he says ok here you are.

ALL dogs MUST have undergone tests for hereditary hip displacia scores by x raying their hips. I do not fully understand the what is known as the hip ‘score’ but for Dobermans in Germany they are only allowed HD free, A and B, I understand this to mean that there are no signs of genetic hereditary hip dysplacia on the dog.

If the hip score is more than B they cannot get a breeding licence and cannot be bred from and registered as a pedigree dog by the breed club. Someone else reading this can probaly explain hip scores better than me, I do not breed.

They are also genetically tested for hereditary eye problems, if there are any signs then the will not get a licence to breed for that dog.

That is the easy part, the dog is then tested for endurance and any signs of genetic failings which give it low endurance.

This test is carried out by the dog trotting along side its owner who rides a bike over a 12 mile distance, if the dog shows signs of undue fatigue during this test it is pulled off, no breeding licence will be granted.

After completion the dog is vetinary tested for undue fatigue, this is medical and I do not understand the details but it helps eliminate dogs with weak hearts, undersize lungs lack of muscle structure etc and other things..

The dog must then perform the hardest part of all, this is the test for courage, nervousness, working ability and character. The passing of these tests ensures the most stable and good temperaments in the world and it is the genes that ensure the dog carries the characteristics to pass or fail these tests. The slightest hint of nervousness and the breeding licence will not be granted.

If it fails any of the genetic tests it can not be entered again for a breeding licence, that’s the end. If it fails on some of the working and character tests it can, if the failing is not too severe, be entered again for the second and final attempt but I think a year has to pass before that can be attempted. Judging is severe.

In Germany today the vast majority of Doberman breeders have DNA tests done on their dogs, as well as the tests I mentioned. I think some people on here can tell you more about those, again, I do not breed.

To try and clarify a bit more what genes are and the importance of them.

Genes are minuscule tissues attached to something called a chromosome, they are passed on from all our ancestors from one generation to the next. They are probably best described as a blueprint for every single part of our bodies and personality, they are the foundation building block for everything we are.

They make all known life forms, including the colour or skin texture and everything else, what we see as the complete life form (grass, fish, mushrooms dogs etc) is built from the code the genes transmit to the cells to make a form ( legs, eyes, colour skin texture etc).

They are physical things, passed on at conception and are mainly unchangeable, at this point in history. They are attached to the chromosome and are made from a substance called DNA.

The genes work very similar to a PC, they write electrical impulses, in code, to cells.

An example could be that a gene sends an electrical written coded signal to a cell and informs it to make a ‘brittle’ finger nail in that individual or maybe a soft finger nail. The cell accepts the command and makes one or the other, it ‘grows’ into what the gene has commanded it to grow into, a brittle middle finger nail or a soft little finger nail.

We as modern humans still have genes from our very distant ancestors, the fish. As a foetal embryo we have eustachian tubes, these are the remnants of the gills we once used to breath with as fish.

Some people have more body hair than others going back to when we were ape like in cases of extreme fear we feel tingles down our backs, this is the redundant hair orifices raising, in aeons gone by when we had a lot of hair on our backs we raised it to make ourselves look bigger and hopefully frighten off a predator, most mammal predators in turn would read that ‘body language’ because it was the same as their own and back off.

First the physical;
If, for instance, one of our ancestors had red hair then red hair will be passed on to SOME, but not all of that persons ancestors until the end of time. Some of the Celtic tribes had a high incidence of red hair and it is from the Celtic origins that some people have red hair. Nordic types who had predominantly Blond hair and it is from the Viking invasions we see blond hair.

In other words we ‘inherit’ these characteristics and the characteristics are carried in the gene(s) from our ancestors, generation after generation hence hereditary.

The reason that only some of the ancestors will have red or blond etc hair is because the races mixed and that gave rise to various combinations of mixed genes and consequently mixed physical characteristics, height, weight eye colour, complexion etc, etc.

Genetic ‘predisposition’ means that although an individual shows no signs of a certain characteristic, such as red hair, they might be carrying a gene from a distant relative who had red hair, if they reproduce it is possible the offspring might have red hair because the ‘genetic predisposition’ is there.

In cases like that the gene is called a ‘recessive’ gene and its occurrence is not as frequent in the genetic make up of the generations of that family as a gene for brown, black or blond hair.

Staying with the Celts for a moment. Alcoholism is proven to be more ‘Genetically’ predisposed in peoples where there is a high % of Celtic origin. The Scots (there goes my invite to Sharon’s place) are proven to have a higher % of Alcoholism than other mainland Britain nationalities.

This is further evidenced if you look back at ancient Celtic art and artefacts. Their art has a much more predominant drink theme that most other cultures and what history is known about them is that alcohol played a more significant role in that culture throughout Europe than other European cultures, although alcohol played a part in most. Alcohol as a recreation drug was common to all cultures but the Celts were much more involved with it than others.
Environmental influence on genetic predispositions.

If someone is carrying a gene for alcoholism it does not mean that they will ever become alcoholic, if they carry the gene but live in a culture where alcohol is either not a part of that culture or even a taboo then the psychology of that individual overides any attraction, in most but not all cases and the gene is never activated.

If the same individual then leaves that culture and start to interact with a culture which is a heavy drinking culture, without any conscious awareness, they would probably find themselves more attracted to that sub culture than the predominant culture and because of the genetic ‘predisposition’ they would be vulnerable to addiction to the substance in contrast to someone who was not carrying the gene.

Most of us carry a gene for skin cancer, in some cases exporure to the sun gives some people skin cancer because the gene is activated by the sun (or ultra violet) but if kept away from sunlight, there is no problem.

I’m sorry I might have gone on a bit but I find it a bit difficult to actually explain it. Hope this gives you some understanding.

"Crufts supreme championship"?

Sorry, I meant Crufts supream 'champion', the winner at crufts.
As a point to note, if Crufts champion is a Dobermann, Malionoise. Rottweiler, GSD
and I think some other working breeds they cannot be shown in any championship or international championship show outside UK.

They have no proven working ability.

All breeds I just mentioned must at least have passed Schutzhund 1 before they can be entered into a championship show in Europe

Theres no such thing as a supreme champion Crufts or otherwise in this Country

thats what I was getting at too Mattie

Avaunt

Having just checked with a friend who has imported 10 Dobermanns direct from Germany over the last 30 years, and is tomorrow taking a german bred bitch out to Germany to be bred to The World Champion Dobermann
dog.

He has informed me that you are definitely on the wrong track about the breeds you mention, any English bred dog be it BIS at Crufts or never having been entered at a championship show in England can be shown in Europe, Germany the rules are slightly different in that they cannot gain their title of Champion until the have passed Schutzhund.

He has also asked me to tell you that if you want to get your facts straight then you are welcome to phone him at any time and he will enlighten you as to correct rules and regulations.

He has also imported Ch. GSD stock from Germany and has stated that both the GSD's and the Dobes have been available to english bred stock, he sees no problem in this whatsoever, so long as the bitch passes his criteria as to conformation, temperament and that the owners are responsible and he would have no problem in keeping any of the resulting stock if they were of good enough quality.

One other thing he did mention in passing was that one of the worst hip scores he ever got in a dobe was one that had been hip scored in Germany before export and when hip scored in England was found to have one of the highest hip scores he has ever seen in a Dobermann.

Perhaps before spouting a load of facts that you seem to have no knowledge of, you should do a little more research as I have.

Wow Avaunt that was a long one - many thanks :D
But I take it you wouldnt put a dog/bitch to sleep because it may turn out to have the wrong colour pups? These dogs are probably kept as pets?
I take it your dog had some form of illness or would have been in pain as it was pts? Must have been horrible for you after 2 years.
- Regards Gina

Hi Sharon, Brainless thanks for the info.

Yes he went on lacrilube combined with his usual visco tears this week, as well as an anti biotic in one eye.
It was ok until this past week and then his worst eye started to close, it had a trauma and it was only then the vet said keep him out of sunlight…I mean what is it with vets he started this last Oct and the never said keep him from sunlight until now when it flared up.

I didn’t have my dog put down Gina, I must have miswrote something. This particular dog has several genetic faults, now he’s seven his eyes just started this drying up thing.
I think now he has to keep out of sunlight I’ll train him to poach by the moonlight.

“No such thing as Crufts Supreme Champion”

I’ve heard Crufts winner referred to as the supreme champion as well as champion of champions.

I train my dogs (not this one, he’s not genetically capable of it) to working levels and now we have no quarantine I will be able to do Schutzhund.

I guess the big thing about shows really is more to do with semantics than dogs ‘Supreme Champion’ ‘Champion of Champions’ and no recognised temperament test at all, unless that putting a hand under the chin is supposed to test. something, not temperament certainly.

I've heard the Crufts Champion called 'supreme champion' as well as champion of champions, it's all semantics.

Either way I don’t show dogs and have nothing to do with shows, I certainly do not know the show vocabulary. As I pointed out in the genetics text, shows in UK ruin dogs health.

I train my dogs to the they're working capacity if they have the genes for it, which this dog current does not.

Sorry Avaunt was talking about your previous dog that you said had to be put down before it was 2 and I thought you said this was because of a genetic fault. Or perhaps you were referring to the Wolfhound your dog played with. Regards Gina

i dont know where you get it from-chows have messages to their eyelashes to grow into their eyes :rolleyes: if you are going to pretend you know so much then please get it right, chows suffer from entropian,which several breeds have problems with-even mongrels, sheep and pigs, so dont breed them -lets throw the baby out with the bath water then!!!!dont you think it would be better to try and breed it out ????did we stop breeding dobes or gsd because of their inherent failures, most if not all breeds have faults,to say chows and spaniels should be bred out and are only bred for money [of course] is another wonderful statement, i really for the life of me cant understand how you get away with posting such untruths???if i where you id contact the chow club and tell them your imformation, im sure it will enlighten them greatly, i would also love to know, as im sure chow breeders would who the crufts supreme chow!!!!!!!!was in 1930 who not only had entropian but passed it onto his offspring in such abundance,

lots of bullmastiffs suffer from entropia as well . So when you get a pup that has it dont breed from that puppy . I had one with entropia from my first litter , she was not registered and went to a pet home after the vet sorted out the eye . I discussed it in detail with the vet and he said that is really all you can do breed it out . From that same litter there are three bitches that have had a litter and not one of the pups had it . I go to see the pups as I normally have one owing me for service . I examine them if there was one on the litter that would be the one I would take and not register it . that way I know I would be dealing with it myself. but no more has turned up. I would not be at all surprised if someway along the line it will raise its head again . but if it does , then we will continue to deal with it, not ignore it . problems can be solved and if all are honest , they will agree that you dont just sail through life breeding dogs and never get a problem.what you do have to do is hold up your hands and admit to it and then back to the drawing board to see how you are going to get past it . best wishes mari

Exactly Mari!! Pointless burying your head in the sand. Facing up to these problems & talking openly & honestly about them is the ONLY way foward for the health of our dogs.
Christine

Dizzy, I got the info on entropian in chows from a vet who told me in the mid 1970 about the 1930's Chow Crufts winner which had entropian.He himself was breeding Chows in those days.

Dizzy, you wrote 'did we stop breeding dobes or gsds'

Yes we did, well some stopped breeding English originated ones.

There are a growing number of people with GSD's and to a smaller extent Dobes (Dobes are not a popular dog these days) who went to Europe in mid 80's to look at the breeding and training standards there, I also went to get some education and training with Dobes.

The reason the GSD people went was because of the nervouseness and hip problems with GSD's and their lack, on the whole, of any ability to work.

When they saw the standards and the almost problem free dogs there they imported some. These dogs have never been mixed with UK originated dogs.

All those breeders originated the British Shutzhund Association and it is those people who make up the bulk of BSA.

They have imported Euro dogs ever since and bred from the original stock they imported, to Euro stock only, to maintain healthy dogs with high and balanced drives.

Since pet passport all those breeders from BSA, that I know of, take their dogs either to Holland or Belgium to take the ZTP test, that is the test for a breeding licence. Many of them are also following the German standard of DNA testing for hereditory faults.

In England we have a word for it, it's called 'I-N-T-E-G-R-I-T-Y'

As I have already implied, yes all heridtory, genetic medical problems should be bred out.

I fully support the European system, if the dog has these faults it should not get a licence, it should not be bred from.

When you see a dog limping round with HD it is deliberatly bred that way. When you see the same dog being taken to the vet to be euthenased as a result you know it is preplaned and deliberate

I fully support the European/German psychology, if their dog has a hereditory fault they themselves do not want to breed from it, its called integrety and putting the dogs best intrests first.

Its a point to note that in Germany the breeders themselves get DNA tests done voluntarily,en-mass, Dobes anyway.

There are a tiny minority here who do it but thats all. Yes I believe dogs with these inflicted injuries should be bred out. Only the breeder looses money the dogs in the long term gain health.Anyone breeding a dog with genetic faults is knowingly inflicting injury into the offspring.

But back to some of the working breeds here even if the genetic problems were to be bred out there is no recognisable character test to give a stable non-nervous dog, except with the BSA dogs which have full character tests.

Avaunt. the litter above I wrote about , is clear of all defects except for the one pup. that pup will not be bred from . If I had spayed all the girls and deballed all the male. then I would have done a disservice to the breed , each individual dog must be treated just like that as an individual . incidently that litter also produced three champions, and the sad thing is the bitch that has entropian is a magnificent specimen of the breed , If I had no integrity I would have registered her , as no one would know she had it after the vet operated on her .I could then have shown her and would surely have made a champion of her . I did not though as I am responsible for the breed that I have .I consider it a sacred trust to do my best for the breed .I dont find your comments to be educational, as you are not a breeder , I am afraid Avaunt theory is not practise and unless you have spent years learning from the pups you bred I really dont think you qualify to say how it should be done. that is like some of those social workers who never had a child and then profess to be child care experts we all know what happened to some children under the care of those so called experts. books are great to research things but down on the ground hard work and experience is what gave people the knowledge to write those books in an effort to teach those who wish to follow on the good work . I hope you take this post the right way . I am just giving the facts as they are not theory. I believe you can only preach what you practise, and then practise what you preach . Mari

First and probably formost, my knowledge of genetics is basic, but reasonable.
I do not do research and study on genetics so there is much more that I do not know than what I do know.

On the above basic level, I understand, mainly from German breeders and some text book basic research, that if ONE offspring is manifesting a condition (in this case entropian) then the probability of ALL others carrying that gene which will be transmitted is a certainty.

What I do know is that if the gene is present in the ancestors it WILL be passed on.

If a species is carrying that gene then some offspring will manifest the defect, others will themselves be unaffected but pass it on so some offspring are affected.

Some conditions mean that although the family are carrying the gene only one in every 4 (for example) will manifest the defect in that generation but the next genertion most wil manifest.

Another thing I know for sure is that it depends on the specific condition, probably the most fameous case is the Russain Rommanhof family who had Haemophilia.

I can't remeber the ratio but it is something like one in every 4 females of one generation show the condition and the next 50%...those figures are examples and not accurate (exept by chance) but one fact is clear. If one in a litter manifests the gene then others are carriers and it transmitts eternaly.

So why not copy the german example and get DNA tests done on all parents and offspring and neuter all affected.

Why is that so difficult, a DNA test is all it takes.

As far as dogs welfare is concerned I am ashamed to be British when I see the average European standards, they just take it for granted that DNA tests are routine, certainly with Dobermanns.

you have made some very sweeping statements---1 can you tell me how you know that NO germen imports have been used on british gsd, also i think if you look at any championship show you'll find the dobe is very much alive ,well and sound-if as you say a dog has a genetic fault it should be discounted from further breeding, when the wardens in germany check out which litter mates can live , are GOOD enough to survive before the not so wonderful are culled ,or not allowed to be bred from, not sure which happens, i know they where culled, perhaps they got kinder, ? when the superior littermates are kept and bred from-then sorry but they too carry the genetic makeup of the failed littermates, so explain this one to me, as id say it was the same as the breeding the rest of us undertake, selective breeding, --and at least you have the courtesy to be ashamed to be british-your words not mine, and probably the first time ive agreed with anything youve written,
as for the chows a vet would not be allowed to tell anyone the chow who won whatever it was you quoted had eye problems-entropian, and if he did id query what sort of ethics this vet may have,
finally id love to know where you learnt about the messages chows have to tell there eyelashes to grow into their eyes-?????? its called entropian its the skin around the eye either because the eye is too sunken the skin around rolls in, or it could be overdone in head forcing the skin down into the eye, its cosmetic!!!!!not electrical

The reason that DNA tests are not done for every inherited problem, is that to date not every genetic gene has been isolated.

From what I understand via a friend who has a breed with a genetic problem, British Scientists at such as the Animal Health Trust are striving to isolate all these genes for each condition.

I agree totally with Dizzy, you have no proof whatsoever that no imported German GSD has never been used on a British bred bitch, in fact I know of someone who has done just that and also know of a number of people who have done just the same with imported Dobes, with great success.

I also support Dizzy statement that booklearning doesn't even compare with hands on and feel that you are denigrating British breeders of all pedigree dogs with your statements.

We as breeders are always striving to improve our specific breeds and care about our animals health far more than you seem to think. Temperament and health are always first and foremost on my mind when considering a mating, whether that be someone using my stud dogs or indeed breeding one of my own bitches. Experience is the biggest teacher of all whether that be breeding or training.

IMHO

Daz

Avaunt,
If you start quoting history....get your facts right about genetic transfers.
Queen Victoria introduced the gene for hemophilia into the royal houses of Europe. No one knows how it manifested in her... she was either illegitimate or it spontaneously appeared in her genetic makeup. No previous family member had had it before that (Porphyria doesn't count in this situation.)

She had five daughters & three sons. If any of her daughters did not inherit the defective gene, it would have ended that specific genetic defect with Victoria.

Of her 8 children, Alice, Beatrice, & son, Leopold were the only ones who passed the gene along to their offspring. Leopold, passed it along, only because he had a daughter that he donated the X chromosome to. No one else in the family passed it along. If they had the technology today to determine who carried it, it wouldn't have been such a tragedy. The nobility of Europe at the time knew about the "Royal Disease" & chose to gamble with the lives of their children & future.

If anyone would like to know more about Hemophilia, how it is inherited, & it's effects feel free to ask. I spent an entire semester studing various medical texts & primary sources concerning its impact on Victorian England, plus its involvements in the troubles of Spain, Germany, & Russia when I wrote up my historical thesis for my undergrad program.

Comparing genetic troubles in human familial history as a rationalization to not breeding any member of a litter of puppies is not exactly a good comparison. Don't make the mistake of throwing out the baby with the bathwater solely based upon theoretical science, please.
toodles

I had no intention of posting on here but feel I really must say something.

With all the talk of perfect German dogs what about the German lines of GSD carrying Haemophilia? To my knowledge there are no infected lines in this country which cannot be traced back to German lines! I’m sorry, it is just not so that German dogs are so much better than UK dogs.

As far as Schutzhund being used to determine the temperament of a dog, I would image experienced dog people would be able to sum up the character of a dog just as I could. We’ve been doing it for rather a lot of years! I for one have absolutely no interest in Schutzhund in any way whatsoever! There are so many forms of canine competition which I feel are of more interest. No thinking breeder, breeding for any form of competition, be it Showing, Field Trials, Obedience or whatever would breed bad temperament dogs. Apart from the obvious, it would not be a lot of good if the judge could not get near it!

As far as genetic faults are concerned, the simplistic approach taken by you is simply no use! As a mode of inheritance depending on the defect you can have a simple recessive or the rather more complicated polygenic and when such illustrious people such as Professor Peter Bedford can only say, “We have reason to believe” then it cannot be considered a certainty! You also said somewhere that the problems with your dog came from its British side, no so! It would need both sides to be carriers for it to come out, therefore the German side must also be carriers!

So how do you get a genetic fault? Disregarding the importation of a dog suffering from it because this would then not be an unheard of fault, there are only ways. Either someone somewhere has knowingly or unknowingly done a naughty and crossed with a dog of another breed which carries this fault or the fault is the result of a mutated gene or series of genes. In either of these cases (Unless a deliberate crossing) the breeder would have no way of knowing that his or her stock is carrying the problem. In the words of the old saying, “It takes two to tango!” Assuming that the line is not bred into it’s self until after the third generation at the earliest it would be around 10 years after the event that anyone would know a problem existed!

John

I have to agree with you Avaunt . your knowledge of genetics is basic
I am afraid everything is just not cut and dried, there has to be a middle ground for everything surely you cannot be seriously thinking your little knowledge of genetics give you a solid ground for your theories. I am afraid you have a long way to go before you have an understanding of the genetics you so advocate as your basis for your .1 admiration of the german way :rolleyes. 2 your ashamed of being english. I would have thought you would need a better reason than your little knowledge of genetics to raze your country to the ground . I dont know if it is me but when you take a country that has opened its door to all and sundry , and compare it to germany with what they did to all and sundry then I am sorry I think you are lucky to be english. I am Irish and I love my country with a passion and everyone and everything decent in it. I also know there are things to be put right in both england and Ireland but I am also convinced it can be put right , and not by culling of people or dogs . if you see where I am coming from. I stand by my decision to breed from the others . and by the way I promise to let everyone know when the next generation are born if they are or are not clear , I will do this win or lose as I want to share my findings with other breeders so they can learn from my successes or mistakes. I say it again honesty will breed out those faults . by holding up your hands and admitting I too have some of those problems. It is across the board and not as serious as other things , because a little simple operation will fix it and the dog is not in any distress after , So tell me if you are still of the the same opinion re entropian , or do you never give in to anything only your thoughts and notions. Mari

DIZZY
For the second time I find you do not read why is written, quote ‘id love to know where you learnt about the messages chows have to tell there eyelashes to grow into their eyes-?????? ‘

Go back to the first part on genetics, its electrical messages, that’s how genes transmit info, it’s also how the brain transmits info’ not of course electric as in light bulbs.

No I would not and did not say that of those who import GSD’s who started the BSA would not accept a stud fee for a male, to breed with a british bitch, I said they will not mate with brit stock, I thought it was clear that what I meant was for their own breeding purposes and did not need stateing.

The dogs which have been imported since the eighties to renew a healthy gene pool are now English dogs which are from direct Euro imported descendants of the 80’s onwards, including today.

Yes they might well allow a stud to mate with an english origin GSD or Dobe but they do not keep the offspring.

As far as Dobes go, there are some in Scotland from Euro stock, they are not mixed with English for their own purposes.

Yes some Dobes are mixed with dogs from Euro stock it might improve or detract, it is a chance mix which has no better chance of improving Brit stock to Euro standards than mating with an English dog, the mix is chance no more.

I have English German mix right now, so was my last. My last made it at both ends of his character and because he made it at both ends of his character it put him as the highest achieved Dobe UK has probably ever had > BUT << it was pure chance, the mix worked with him but that’s rare in the extreem and a chance only.

The ONLY dobes in shows here which are qualified to show in ANY championship show in Europe, which are the internationals are ALL, without exception, from European stock.

Mixing an English Dobe with an import means nothing, it has no more chance of improving stock than mixing with English.

I have no idea what your talking about when you say ‘Wardens going round putting pups or dogs down’ part of your interplanetary imagination I think.

You seem to think that if an import is introduced to a brit dog that will bring things back to a good genetic gene pool, it wont.

Bear in mind I have no interest in breeding as such, my interest is as someone who enjoys healthy, active dogs which enjoy their own capability to work and is that of someone who must scrutinise breeders and the breeders I talk to, some here, are breeders with proven working, and some with show, ability.

My critisisms here of Brit breeders is mild to the point of me being a sweet cherry on a cake compared to the Brit Dobe and GSD importers here who almost will not even talk of the English stock at all, except in jest.

The proof of the pudding is allways in the eating and I can state quite clearly, NO dog from British stock, which is not directly from dogs imported from Europe since eighties has ever qualified for entrance into the European Championships and World championship shows.

ONLY dogs from euro imports have done that but most work their dogs not show.

Yes as I said I have a dobe with a german father and english mother.
What you are calling a success is in showing but it is not a success at all, the dogs could not be bred from in europe BECAUSE as I stated and promoted, they would not pass a breeding licence test.

ONLY dobes from direct European stock could pass that test, mixing a Euro import with a Brit means it’s a chance that is no better a chance than breeding with AN English stock dog.

It did work with my last dog, to extremes but that was pure chance.

Don't forget a show dog has no proven ability except the judge liked it better than the rest, thats ALL it proves. (maybe the judge will pay less for a pup, as everyone might say)

But looking at the two postings that interest me the pattern is clear and that pattern is ‘We will do nothing to improve our poor British stock even if they cannot be shown in European and world championship shows or get breeding licences.

Yours thought are patterns I expect in UK. Anti DNA and genetic testing

and again to you--entropian is caused by many things, loose forehead wrinkle-deep set eyes-stress can bring it on too, -again!!!it can be cosmetic NOT genetic,
you wrote--that the ALMOST!!!!! problem free imported dogs-----{only almost problem free?????} these dogs where NEVER mixed on the uk originated dogs--i suggest you read your own mail properly
dobes are no longer a popular dog-i think if you check the registration figures theyre still much sought after,
as for slagging a country off that you live in -----i suggest you look up the meaning of the word INTEGRITY you offered before, AS MOST OF US ON THE BOARD HAVE OODLES OF IT THANKYOU

Hi avaunt, as someone who has undisputed proof that dna genetic testing can be WRONG, I feel I have to comment on your insistance that English people are "anti DNA & genetic testing". The breeders I know,& myself WOULD use it if we could be assured it was 100% true.You are looking at things in black & white but real life, genetics especially, does not work that way.There are grey areas, lots of them & what works in theory does NOT always work in practice & I have the proof.
Christine

In the dog breeding world Mari, england razed itself to the ground, I did not strike the match.

But again I see another anti DNA testing what hip scores are on your adult Bulmastiffs Marie over this past 3 generations?

avaunt, please can you enlighten me as to what quarry you are going to train you dog to (And I quote) "poach by moonlight"??? I am intrigued.

I will just tell you this , as quick as i can I did not hip score up to last year but decided to do it this year even though it is only asked for german sheps here , I wantee to prove to myself and one or two others that I could tell and see soundness . I think this is the readings alice was 13. 14 bearing in mind she had a litter and is six yrs old . babs is nearly three and is 10 .11 anything under 18 is good for a bullmastiff , I do not have the results in front of me and for personel reasons I have to go . and have no time to look but its there abouts , my pup is not yet 1 yr but will be done . you wont find me lax in my approach to breeding Avaunt no matter how much you would like to . I am sorry but I have to go I will take this up again when I come back tonight , and I will look up the results . It will give me something to do tonight Mari

Well Marie I find that very, very encouraging indeed.

Finaly there are two people who are talking about either improving the health of British Islands dogs.

One who likes to buy with the security of knowing the incoming dog will have had evrything done that can be done to reproduce a healthy pup, i.e. me.

Another in Ireland who has started to go towards the standards used as a norm in Europe.

Well done Marie....lets see what English replies can equal your responsible approach and my needs as someone who buys a dog and pays his vets bills.

having had rotties before the sharpei and shown them, i also had them hipscored before they where ever used and temperament tested, they all passed with flying colours, if theyd failed either then they would not of been used,
the breed i have now, sharpei, i showed a bitch to bob at crufts etc, top puppy bitch many chmpionship bobs, her sire was top sire, her dam top brood, her brother took over as top sire at a later date, the bitch was however a touch shy, not aggresive but shy, very loving ,excellent in the house but took a while to come around to strangers, but never ever showed any aggresion, but there again it wouldnt of been allowed ,however i took a litter from her and found 2 of the males in the litters temperament suspect. i took one more using a different male and the pups where kinder but still unsure, the bitch from the litter i kept, the males are pet homed. her daughter was gorgeous, won nearly all of her classes ,loved her family and was no problem whatsoever, but one of the males turned grumpy, now this could of been the owners fault or it could of been genetic, but i made a very hard choice then and decided not to go any further with that line, as i value temperament big time, the daughter is now speyed and the line is finished as far as my side of its concerned- i do however own another bitch who is rock solid in temperament, loves everyone and everything she herself has hAd some fabulous wins and is producing very sound ,outgoing happy pups with no hang ups whatsoever. so i really dont feel you have the right to make an across the board statement about british breeders in the negative, but at the same time we do it by choice and a valued reputation, built up over the years, which you give us little regard of

My dogs are both eye tested and hip scored. I also co-organise eye testing sessions with another who posts on this board. You obviously do not see the large number of people who come to our sessions. If I thought the British people could not be bothered then I would hardly waste my time bothering to run the sessions.

I can’t quite see where all things German are so great when their dogs suffer from haemophilia, something unheard of here until the German dogs appeared on the scene. Our working gundogs are the envy of the world. Since the pet passport scheme arrived several Field trials on the continent were won by British dogs whereas no overseas dog and handler won a single British Field Trial!

John

John,

I keep meaning to ask you - should Holly be eye-tested? And if so at what age? She's now nearly 5mths old and is a Cocker Spaniel. We don't want to breed from her but I'd like to have her done, if it needs doing, for my own peace of mind.

I'm sure that she should be done, but I'm suffering 'cotton wool' brain at the moment and can barely remember anything that happened more than 1 week ago :(

Thanks,

Fiona
x x x

Marie,

You have enough to do without having to prove anything to a person like Avaunt. Everyone knows your dogs are truly top dogs and what all your dogs mean to you and also what a top breeder you are so dont bother elaborating more unless you truly want to. Sorry but getting a bit rattled at the way he/she is behaving now (are you a he or she Avaunt not that I am overly concerned but just wondering who is posting as you have hidden all your details and have given no info. on yourself which is a bit odd for the people who contribute on this site.

Sorry Admin please delete if I am out of order. I shall probably wish I hadnt posted when I have calmed down. Gina

PS I see you have just said "his" in your latest post (which I really am not sure how you want people on here to take it although you will probably tell me) so I take it you must be male...no wont say any more!!! LOL :D

Please, please, PLEASE don't delete it admin. People have a right to display their personality and Gina's reply does not bother me in any way, it does indicate she is anti DNA or Genetic testing, thats all.

Gina could have been more constructive and said 'I will start DNA testing this week'
but, y'know, English breeding and all that.

"Pays 'his' vets bills" sorry it was sooo very, very unclear Gina, 'his' vets bills are my dogs vets bills, I dont have a vet.

Must be my Scottish breeding but DNA testing on my two small pet dogs I dont think so LOL. I am having a great time on this site as have only owned my 2 dogs for 6 months (dog) and 5 weeks (bitch) I love the banter and all the help I am getting. Me a breeder nah only children I am afraid. :D

Re "his" and "vet" - I like it LOL (all geniuses make mistakes) :o

Gina

HAHAHAHAH.....I think this place can be fun as well Gina, trouble sometimes is laughter and sleep don't exactly go well together..

I think I'm really in your book of favourite people 'cause I notic you never metioned my comments on the Celtic gene for alcoholism....I did notice Sharon Mcree never posted since though.

May be because I thought it was 'rubbbish' or that the English "half" of me has equalled me out so I only get drunk every other weekend!!! :D

I notice your spelling is sort of 'fading', I don't want to get involved in your personal life...but is this 'the other week-end?'

Could be I will let you know tommmmorrow :D

Oh! so your optimistic you will remember today!?

As has been previously said Dna testing is not available for all genetic problems.That is why breeders of Border Collies Shelties Rough Collies to name only afew (am sorry if I missed your breed out) have been raising funds for quite sometime to fund research into the genes that course CEA and other eye disorders do you call these English breeders Anti DNA testing.You have your opinion and are not open to any intelligent debate.Genetics is not an exact science and mutations can and do frequently occur after all thats how we all developed GOOD AND BAD characteristics.