Hello my freind has a beautyful female chocolate lab and he is looking for a stud dog for her, she is a working dog and he would like to stud her with a another working dog, she has great pedigree and would make a fantastic mum could you please help me to find a stud, many thanks tracey my email address is tracey_barber2@hotmail.co.uk.

Before your friend goes any further with her search for a stud dog, has his bitch been hip/elbow scored?  Is it below the breed mean?   Has she had eye tests?   Is she KC registered?   Has she won any field trials/showa?

If the answers are no to any of the above, I would advise me just to enjoy her, as the lovely girl that she must be.

There are so many labradors bred every year, and sadly, too many aof them end up in Resuce.  He will know how "bouncy" and destructive lab adolescents are (I certainly do :) ) nut unfortunately a lot of people who take on a lovely lab puppy do not appreciate these facts, and then the poor dogs end up in Rescue, through very little fault of their own, but because owners fail to appreciate how much training goes into a "lovely lab".

Margot

Hi has your friend had any health tests done on her bitch ie hips eyes etc?

Sorry you must have been typing while I was.

Snap! :D

& is he aware that 45,000 labradors are bred & registered with the KC each year with possibly half as many unregistered ones as well ?

Is your friend also aware that genetically it is not a good idea to mate chocolate to chocolate?  This often results in poor colour in the puppies.  I'm sure your friend will want to do the best for their bitch and any future puppies, it's not just a matter of putting a dog and a bitch of the same breed together and letting them get on with it........

This is true, if your friend must go down this road then advise them to use a black stud dog throwing chocolate, this way you keep the pigmentation nice and dark,but you will have a mixed litter of black & chocolate puppies

If she's a working bitch then the first place I would ask would be one of the main breeders of working labs.  If she's that good then her breeder will be able to help you. 

Chocmolly - if you use a black dog on a chocolate bitch (with the black dog carrying the chocolate gene) do you ever get yellows in the litter?

I hope not!!!!!
It's what I'm going to be doing with my choclate bitch next spring.The pedigrees of the dogs involved have very few yellows in them - -mostly right at the back and i know my own bitch, the last 3 generations not including her have all been chocolate with black & choc behind that.
The dog I'm using has been proved to produce chocolate and black puppies so i will definitely get a mixed litter which i really don't mind as i know it's what is best for any future breeding.
Probably the best thing you can do is ask around the working Labrador circuit and look at lots of pedigrees, hopefully some one will be able to recommend a dog to you, as has happened to me, unfortunately mine is a show type so i can't help you out with that side.
  If you get a good quality proven track record stud dog i would hope you'll be okay:-)

>I hope not!!!!!
>It's what I'm going to be doing with my choclate bitch next spring.The pedigrees of the dogs involved >have very few yellows in them -

Sorry Chocmolly, you need to do a little more homework, if the above is the case, then your bitch can and possibly will produce yellow!

>The dog I'm using has been proved to produce chocolate and black puppies so i will definitely get a mixed litter

Only if your bitch carries the correct genes, you could produce an all black litter, or a litter of black and yellow. 

Remember Black is the dominant coat colour. If the dog has a gene whch gives it the ability to express a dark coat and a dominant Black gene, it will be black.

A Chocolate dog must also have the ability to express a dark coat, and must carry two recessive coat colour genes.

There are only 2 ways the genes combine to produce Chocolate dogs. Chocolate is the recessive coat colour, and you must have at least 1 Expression gene to be able to display the Chocolate coat.

bbEE will produce chocolate
bbEe will produce yellow

Do you know which your bitch carries?

As you say >The pedigrees of the dogs involved have very few yellows in them
The fact is they have yellow and therefore a high possiblity of your chocolate bitch producing yellow pups.

Please do your homework very carefully!

Hi kayc

>>Only if your bitch carries the correct genes, you could produce an all black litter, or a litter of black and yellow. 

The bitch doesn't need to carry anything to produce chocolate as she is already bb.  The dog is obviously Bb so each pup born has a 50:50 chance of being black or chocolate.  If both carry recessive e then this will override at a rate of 25% to produce yellow.

And the regular topic of choc x choc producing diluted colour :-)  This is a myth.  A chocolate has a genotype of bb.  You can't get any more chocolate than that.  The genes aren't cumulative so you are no more likely to get better pigment from choc x black than choc x choc.

Julie

>The bitch doesn't need to carry anything to produce chocolate as she is already bb.  The dog is obviously Bb so each pup born has a 50:50 chance of being black or chocolate.  If both carry recessive e then this will override at a rate of 25% to produce yellow.

True :)  having puppies addles the brain, my apologies,

The point I was really trying to make was that her bitch could produce yellows....I really should have just said that and gone to bed ;)

Chocolate to black mating
bbEE x BbEE will give the probability of 1/2 chocolate & 1/2 black.
bbEE x BbEe will give the probability of 1/2 chocolate & 1/2 black.
bbEe x BbEE will give the probability of 1/2 chocolate & 1/2 black.
bbEe x BbEe will give the probability of 3/8 chocolate, 1/4 yellow, 3/8 black

Sorry if you think i'm wrong, i have been very well advised by several people who are more expert in the breeding of choclate labs than you are.I know that the theory doesn't apply to all choc labs but the pedigrees of both dogs involved have been well studied.
Most reputed choc lab breeders would agree that every so often you need to introduce a blk carrying choc back into the line again to ensure that the choc colour remains the true deep colour that it should be, not like alot of the gingery colours that are becoming so frequent with much lighter eyes which really are not good samples of choc labs.
As i say i know it will be a mixed colour litter and i'll let you know if a yellow comes out but i doubt it will.Would you prefer me to use a choc and risk the standard of the breed?
I intend to keep (hopefully) a choc bitch which in the future will be bred to  a choc dog.
I hoe you have a better understanding now of why I'm doing it this way and why i advised the way i did.

Hi chocymolly

There are some very experience Lab people on CDs and the subject of breeding chocolates is a regular topic here.  The advice usually given is that breeding primarily for colour limits your choice of breeding partners so that other more important apsects of the breed have to take second place.

If you do a search you will find lots of discussion on this.  This one -

AGGHH can't get the url to come up!

Julie

sorry had to go into my history to find the url

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=467897;hlm=and;hl=chocolate

Hi Chocomolly, sorry, I did not mean to be patronising and I am glad you have the backing of experts.  The reason I pointed out that you could have yellows, especially when you said you hoped NOT, is that you have stated there are yellow in the lines of the dogs concerned.

Yes you are right I dont have the expertise in breeding Chocolate labs, I strictly stick to black and yellow and in 35 years have only ever produced one chocolate pup.  I leave the chocolate breeding to the experts.

I am pleased you have a mentor who is guiding you. 

My problem is with people who do not take advice and be guided by experts, and I am concerned for my breed, however you have now explained that, thankfully, you are being guided, although your initial reply did not come over that way.  It really seemed to me that as you 'hoped', it was a hit and miss mating.  My apologies.

I am sure if you search on this subject you will understand my concerns and not take my misgivings to heart.

Hi Kayc,
I'm sorry too.Originally i was looking at using a choc stud but i have been strongly advised against this.It isn't a hit and miss mating, it hasn't happened yet.The owner of the stud dog has a choc stud dog who would match my bitch nicely but she is of the opinion that her blk carrying choc is the best way to go.So far the blk dog has been proven to only produce choc and blk.
I don't want to offend anyone as i'm sure when the time comes i'll be asking for advice on the breeding section re; whelping.
This is the first time we've had puppies but everybody has to start somewhere and I'll be grateful for any advise.
Before any one does ask! i have had the hip scores done ,we do have a clear eye certificate and i already have "the book of the bitch".
I don't want to be catagorised as "another one of those dreadful chocolate breeders".I would rather have quality blk and choc puppies than a quantity of mediocre choc puppies.
Also my bitch will be 3 yrs when she has the puppies and it will be her 4th season.

Digger the answer to your question is YES.  My Emma (yellow) is the result of a black to chocolate mating, both dogs carried all three colours. The litter consisted of Black and yellow pups, non were chocolate.

That was a dog carrying all three colours!