I am 37, so old enough to remember the day when everyone was required, by law, to have a licence for their dog.  It was so stupidly cheap, that I think they dispensed with it years ago.

However, I would like to see some new measures introduced, including that of a more suitably priced licence.

These "measures" would be;

1)  The re-introduction of the licence, as mentioned
2)  All owners must take their dog to a "socialisation" class, esp if it is a young dog
3)  All dogs must be microchipped
4)  All dog owners must have insurance
5)  All dogs to be kep on a lead in public places

I understand that maybe this will upset some people, but I am a dog owner, and I would happily comply with those conditions, indeed I already DO, aside from the licence, of course.

Your thoughts please...

:)

How do you define public places? Are you saying you want all dogs to be on a lead always except when in their own back garden??? Surely anything else; a park, a wood etc, IS a public place.

Okay, to clarify, I mean the streets, town centres, and so on.

Hope that helps, sorry for any confusion...

I don't think they will be able to define where is acceptable to allow a dog of lead and not - The others I think are a good idea though ;)  However it is also law to have a collar and ID tag on your dog at all times while in public and I see plenty with out these therefore how will it be enforced?

Why would it matter about the cost of the licence?

It would matter, because if the licence was a bit more expensive, then it might make people less whimsical about getting a dog in the first place.

I am working this on a law of averages here, but in my opinion and experiences of different 'types' of dog owners, you have mainly two types, you have the people who decide that they want a dog, they might have a think about what breed would suit them and then contact breeders and/or rescue societies which would then lead to them getting their dog - no problem, the second type of owner, is the 'hard nut' or 'chav' type who will be after either a bull breed, or an itsy bitsy, teeny tiny, little puppy wuppy who they can play dress up with and spend hours painting their claws!! The second type will pay horendous amounts of money for the 'fashionable' dog of the month, if they can afford the inflated prices for a puppy, then they can afford a licence - or they would just not bother with a licence at all.

I realise that these are very sweeping statement's and stereotypical to boot, and I know there are people who don't fit in these boxes, but as I said this is from what have seen/learnt/experienced personally.

The laws or bylaws already exist that require this.  £200 fine here for a dog on the street off lead yet there are still idiots who walk their dog off lead along my road which is busy (has had to have speed calming measures put in) and is on a bus route.

No-one enforces the law.

How would this be policed?

There are squillions of cars on the road without road tax or insurance let alone banned drivers behind the wheel, which makes dog licences et al pale into comparison.

'Price is no guarantee of good husbandry, look at the very expensive pedigree dogs which cost upwards of £750 which are abandoned etc every year, what price would you make the licence, what about those on low incomes and pensioners.

Classes, some people do not drive, there are not classes in every village or town and even if there were, no one controls the quality of these either.

I do NOT agree that all dogs must be microchipped; that is no guarantee of anything at all, if you insist, allow a choice between that and tattooing.

There are car drivers, home owners, etc etc without insurance how will you enforce this?

All dogs on leads in public places??????????  So where do you suggest that dogs are let off to run then?  We do not all own hundreds of acres of private land????????

You must either be lucky in that you have plenty of private land at your disposal or have a breed that must NEVER be let off as posted on another thread!

At the end of the day if you cannot enforce/police rules/laws then there is no point in having them; it is against the law for many things but it happens et using hand held mobile phones whilst driving, parking on yellow lines, speeding etc etc etc

I feel (no offence), that your post is a little on the negative side.  Nothing can be "policed" 100%, but what I am aiming for is people who are better able and prepared to be responsible.  And these were my views, before AND after I got my dog.

Maybe if some of the measures were laid down, then we would dissuade people from buying a dog as they would buy a pair of jeans..?

But when we had a licence it did not stop people buying dogs?

Ideas are all very well, but you need more than that, an explanation of how they are to be implemented, what the consequences would be for non compliance etc etc etc

I am not negative, just pragmatic, it is an area in which I have some experience.

I do see your views and think that you have a point, too many people take the decision about buying a dog lightly!  I am sorry to say however that I don't ever see it happening or being effective, too many people dodge the law as it is ;)

This would never prevent the unsavouries owning dogs.  The licence would be impossible to enforce properly.  I have always had a TV licence so if I don't buy one this year it will show on the records and I will be fined. I have always had a Car Tax Disc and if I don't buy one this year the DVLA will fine me because I am on their records.  It will be the likes of the responsible dog owners like myself who will be paying for yet another licence that so many dodgers will not pay because they evade the system.  The only way to get around this would be to ensure that breeders informed the authorities of the owners of puppies, similar to selling a car.  Then you would have an increase in unregistered puppies being sold to 'breeders' mates in pubs etc. 

Of course if you pinch someone else's dog that would also get you off the licence.  If it looks like you might get caught well you could always dump it and get another.  Sorry, cynical I know, and just my opinion.

Agree fully wth Enfieldrotts. Just look at the DDA -did it solve the perceived problems?  No. Who were the people and dogs that ended up being punished? The responsible owners. :(

I live in Northern Ireland where we still have the Dog Licence. It costs £5 per year (£2.50 for pensioners). The only advantage I can see to it is that it is an additional method of identifying your dog should it stray and get picked up by the Dog Warden or handed to a shelter as the Licence No. is traceable. Apart from this aspect (which is only useful IF the dog is wearing its tag...my dog lost his after about 3 days last year), it is worthless other than for generating a bit of revenue for the Council. .

It is only the responsible dog owners that purchase a licence in the first place and they aren't the ones who need educating. I would say that the majority of dog owners in N.Ireland do not have a licence but it is impossible to police, short of searching every premises in the country for the presence of a dog. Northern Ireland has a terrible record when it comes to animal cruelty and we contribute to a huge percentage of the number of healthy dogs PTS every year :( That fact kind of speaks volumes about how effective dog licencing is here.

Well, my thoughts...for what they're worth!!!..I think it will be impossible to Police, and who would be responsible and pay to police it?? Probably the poor old council tax payers...who already subsidise those who pay nothing at all to the Council services! They can't even cope or deal with all the problems that come from anti-social behaviour, so how are they going to cope with monitoring dogs and their owners? The reason they stopped issueing licenses in the pat was because it was uneconomical to collect and check. I'm afraid there are also elements in this Country that delight in flouting the law, attacking cats or other dogs with their pitbull crosses! A particular problem in Liverpool at the moment, so what do we do about these? Also, whilst I agree in principle about micro-chipping, all my dogs are micro-cipped but I have a wee Yorkie who was only chipped as he had an anaesthetic to remove baby teeth and he needed a Pet Passport, but other than that do all the tiny dogs have chips given,with what is to them,a MASSIVE needle?? There will always be those that feel they are above the law and will not comply anyway! The same with the Insurance, most owners had 3rd party insurance with their house Insurance...but again, what of those that don't bother with any?? Way too complex to nake into a statutory law and no-one abole to police it anyway I'm afraid, all the best, Dawn. (and as for socialisation, what about those of us with 4 plus dogs, who socialise our animals oursleves through friends, shopping and going to Shows, doesn't that count?)

>There are squillions of cars on the road without road tax

Not any more - its computerised now... if you don't get your car tax pronto you get fined!

You only get fined if you are in the system.  Here's how it works - you buy a second hand car for say £50 - £100, you give a false name and address to the seller (who is going check?) and then you don't notify DVLA that you are the new owner.  There are lots of people doing this.  Eventually the police might confiscate the car which is what they do around here.  Doesn't matter though because there are plenty more where that came from and buying cars this way is cost effective because you don't have to pay out insurance, MOT or car tax and many of them don't even have a driving licence.  They only really get caught if they are involved in an accident and guess what happens? Slapped wrist, don't do it again, you're disqualified (that one always makes my mind boggle) and usually a fine.  They might end up in prison eventually but they have to be caught a few times first.

Cain - are you by any chance a politician or a civil servant? :D I'm sorry, but you're talking total b*llocks.

All it would do is unfairly tax responsible dog owners and do nothing for animal welfare as all the money would go into the government's back pocket to top up their already extortionate pensions. I'm on benefits due to long term illness and have two dogs - I dont' drink or smoke and they are my one 'luxury'. How much is an annual license going to cost - £30? £50 maybe? Probably £100 or more to fund itself to be policed in any way. If you can please tell me where I'm going to get £200 a year? Or do I break the law and risk a huge fine or having my dogs taken off me?

Meanwhile the thug who's proud of breaking his ASBO merrily goes on starving his poor Neapolitan mastiff who's stuck in 6 inches of it's own excrement with no shelter in the back yard. Nobody complains as they're scared of getting their windows bricked in. He doesn't have a license for his TV or the relevant documentation for his car and never gets caught, so why should he license his dog?

If your a politician you must be a labourite, just more state control.

I  took my  first dog to socialisation class, complete failure, badly run class with all big breeds, my medium breed was swamped so only went  to one class, who will bear the cost of controlling and issuing standards for socialisation classes, it won't come form the license because they will payfor the manpower and paper work.

My dogs are microchipped, some people prefer tattooing why shouldn't they have a choice?

I have insurance, not every one can afford to pay that out, why shouldn't be left to make their own arrangements? how ever that may be, seperate account where they put a small amount away each month, very sensible way of doing it.

I keep my dogs on the lead where its a legal requirement to do so.

Only irresponsible owners don't comply with the above and I doubt they would bother too much about buying a license any way.

No way what purpose would it serve that existinglaws so not cover.

2) Not all owners need soclialisation classes, but prefer to plan their own training and socialisation.

3) Why should all dogs have a foreign body implanted into them.  The law requires that every dog away from home (except some dogs while working) have to wear a collar and tag with theri owners anme and addres inscribed.  My own dogs are tattooed (the methos I prefer) chipped (because they have t5o be to comply with the Pet Travel Scheme), but why should they be chipped, they wear collars with properly engraved tags every day of their lives.

4) Why should I have Insurance (other than thrid party liability) for my dogs, it is generally a rip off, and no wa6 could I afford to insure five of them, I prefer to have a line of credit I can draw on in an emergency and put money asside for their vet visists in an account.

5) If all dogs were to be kept on a lead in public then most (except those belonging to people with their own land) would be deprived of socialisation and excersise, a dismal thought.

Brainless writes ") Why should I have Insurance (other than thrid party liability) for my dogs, it is generally a rip off, and no wa6 could I afford to insure five of them, I prefer to have a line of credit I can draw on in an emergency and put money asside for their vet visists in an account".

Brainless(!), with respect, did anyone FORCE you to have FIVE dogs!  Or was it your free choice?  If I went out and bought five cars, would I have the right to moan about fuel prices!  :)

No I chose to keep five generations of my breeding, and I spend my money wisely on caring for them not to make money for Insurance companies or the government.  I already pay VAT on theri Veterinary care, and most things to do with them apart from their food.

Who are you to decree only the rich should own dogs.  I am disabled, don't drive, smoke, drink, and party about once every 10 years, so choose to keep dogs instead, but I still can't afford to waste money.

>Who are you to decree only the rich should own dogs.  I am disabled, don't drive, smoke, drink, and party about >once every 10 years, so choose to keep dogs instead, but I still can't afford to waste money.

Exactly Brainless, this is what my husband and I always say as well. We never EVER go out. We don't drink and we don't smoke and new clothes, what's that? A pair of £3 jeans from ASDA normally. Yet I calculated the other day that a married couple we know that smoke a lot, they will spend a minimum of £2900 a year on cigarettes. That is a LOT more than we spend on dog food a year, in fact about 4 times more.......  Other people go to the pub once a week or more. Others spend hundreds a year on clothes. And that goes for people with low incomes,on benefits, whatever, as well, so I don't see why dog owners on a low income should be any different -as long as we always do make sure the dogs DO get what they need.

>If I went out and bought five cars, would I have the right to moan about fuel prices!

Odd comparison -how could you be in 5 places at once? Otherwise you'd not use more fuel than if you had one car, would you.

Whilst i agree that there are many owners who should not own a dog and that something should be done about unsuitable owners.

However, you say that all dogs go to sociallisation classes esp if a young dog.  How long are people to take their dog to classes?  My first dogs went and if its your only pup then yes they can be beneficial.  I no longer take my dogs there preferring my own socialisation regime.  Again with the insurance, a few years ago you got really good insurance for about £15 but now for good insurance you look at about £35+ depending on the cover.  This may be fine for 1 dog, but when you have 3 adults and 2 puppys for something that in 5 years i have never used this would run into £1k i prefer to send money to my dogs savings account and know i have credit available if required.  Also i recently had a litter and to find insurance for a bitch in whelp was near impossible. 

Although i think the liscence may be a good idea but how would it be policed?

How  would it work if say for 5 years I had afforded my dog Licence, then due to a change in cirumstances I could not longer afford to pay, do I take my dog to the local pound or would there be some kind of benefit to help through these  periods, like rent/rate rebate to get people through these times, we take on a dog at 8 weeks no-one can guarentee they will not hit hard times in the period of the dogs life, so it is not a case that if you cannot afford it you should not have one, it is one of lifes unforseen change, what would happen to the dogs that the owner could no longer keep Licence.Would it come down to a choice of feed the dog or Licence it. I know in that situation I would break the law.

Lynn

A dog is NOT a fundmental "must have", like food, housing, or clothing.  Simple as really.

Keeping dogs is a lifestyle choice - just as having children is really.  So when they introduce licenses for kids I will agree to licenses for dogs.  Of course things could go the other way... a pet allowance on a par with child allowance......

>How  would it work if say for 5 years I had afforded my dog Licence, then due to a change in cirumstances I could >not longer afford to pay, do I take my dog to the local pound or would there be some kind of benefit to help >through these  periods, like rent/rate rebate to get people through these times, we take on a dog at 8 weeks >no-one can guarentee they will not hit hard times in the period of the dogs life, so it is not a case that if you >cannot afford it you should not have one, it is one of lifes unforseen change, what would happen to the dogs that >the owner could no longer keep Licence.Would it come down to a choice of feed the dog or Licence it. I know in >that situation I would break the law.

Agree. I don't know how many here remember, but back in the 80's (probably before then as well, but I wasn't in this country then) people on benefits could get 3 pets treated for free with the PDSA scheme -with ANY vet that belonged to the scheme, and the great majority DID.  It meant everyone could see a vet and not worry about money even if unemployed -and let's face it, anyone can lose their job. I know this BECAUSE my then husband DID lose his. Anyway, then the PDSA had to change the rules, suddenly only one animal per person could be treated, certain conditons/ treatments would be excluded and only a certain number of people would be accepted per vet as well. (Not the PDSA's fault, it was due to a shortage of money.) Well my vet had so many people turning up on his doorstep saying they could no longer have their dog treated because of the rule change -be it that the conditon/medication wasn't covered amy more or that they had 2 or 3 pets.They didn't have the money to pay instead. So they dumped their dogs on him! It happened so many times that in the end he took the decision to stop offering the scheme altogether, as he felt it was more fair to say no to everyone than yes to some and no to others.

So this sort of thing DOES happen.

My insurance is VERY extensive, and costs £9.25 a month.  There is NO excuse for anyone not to have it, imho.  As for "policing" the licences, well of course some would evade it, just as people try to evade other things, and they would be pursued in much the same manner.  If you have to have a licence for a TV, then why not a dog! 

Another thing I would add to the licence requirement.

If anyone was EVER convicted of ANY animal cruelty/neglect, then they should be banned from keeping ANY animal, FOREVER.

The light sentences right now are pathetic.

Where we live every now and again there is free chipping in the poorer areas, which i think is a good idea, as due to my husbands job we have been round these areas and a lot of there dogs are left to roam the streets, which is a danger to both people and the dogs. As for insurance as a few others have said i don't think it would deter people as they just wouldn't buy it, but thats just my opinion.

I was supposed to write licence instead of insurance oops.

If you can find me a company that will insure my shar-pei who'll be 11 in December AT ALL never mind for £9.25, I'll dance naked in the main ring at Crufts.

Well, I am sure that it varies from dog to dog, and I am not sure what they factor in to arrive at a price, but I have a 7 month old Bull Terrrier, and Sainsbury's insure him for £9.25 a month, and the policy is extensive, in fact they have just agreed to meet the £220 for the special op to have his balls removed, as they are right up inside him.

I was personally impressed by this, as even the vet said that a LOT of insurers would NOT have paid out, esp as we knew in advance about the ball thing..  :)

Does that help..?

Cain, It is good to forward ideas for debate/discussion but I really don't think you have thought this through.  There are good arguments put forward as to why introducing a licence scheme, forced socialisation/insurance and forcing dogs to be kept on leads would not work.  You have yet to propose why your ideas would benefit anyone other than insurance companies and entrepreneurs riding on the back of half baked schemes.

You replied to Brainless <Brainless(!), with respect, did anyone FORCE you to have FIVE dogs!  Or was it your free choice?  If I went out and bought five cars, would I have the right to moan about fuel prices!>

Your analogy is with respect to fuel and she wasn't complaining about feeding them but insuring them.  She says she has 3rd party and that is all is required by law for a car  

As much as I would like to see it, I am confident that we won't be seeing Pheobe dancing naked at Crufts ;)  Your argument falls flat here because insurance companies are quite happy to insure healthy puppies.  You haven't done your homework here.

You don't need a licence to convict anyone of cruelty of neglect. They would still need to go through the legal system and introducing a licence won't necessarily change the sentences on cruelty and neglect.  Besides which evil people do these things regardless and are the type who wouldn't pay it anyway.

I would very much resent having to pay for a dog licence.  I am not Rockafella so thought carefully before buying my dog.  The initial outlay, insurance, jabs, top quality wormer, flea control and food amounts to what is a lot of money to us and I don't begrudge a penny of it because it all benefits my dog, but what benefit would she or I gain from a dog licence?

Finished :)

Well, I was just trying out a few ideas on here, did not mean to upset anyone, so I won't add further to it as I seem to have got the wrong reaction - :(

Goodnite

x

You've not upset anyone :)  Ideas are always good, don't be offended if you don't the response you expect.  Afterall everyone is entitled to their opinions ;)

Nite

>My insurance is VERY extensive, and costs £9.25 a month.  There is NO excuse for anyone not to have it, imho. 

That's just a plain daft statement! Let's see, 9.25 x 12=£111 a year. Take that times my 9 dogs = £999. I most definitely do not spend £999 every year at the vets for my dogs! It would be a total waste of money, especially when you have to take the excess into account. AND it won't pay for long term medication. If you then take the £999 times just 10 years for arguments sake, that would mean nearly £10 000 in insurance fees for my dogs' lifetimes. I don't think so.......... You need a crystal ball if it's going to be worth bothering having insurance if you have more than 2 animals. Otherwise you never know WHO is going to need it.

At a seminar a few years ago our breed had someone from one of the Pet Insurance companies and they admitted that for more than two dogs it was not worth insuring and you were better to put the premiums in the bank.  Since then premiums have rocketed, so I can't see the situation being any different.

My dogs range from 2 to 13 1/2 years old, and no way do I spend each year what their Insurance premiums would be, the 3 Veterans would now cost the earth t0 insure.

I did have all my 3 dogs insured until October of last year....
When the insurance company hiked my veteran's monthly premium from £23 a month
to £43 a month. (At which point she was 6 1/2 yo)
Bearing in mind that at that time the other two were also about £20 a month each.
Now my premiums have almost increased to the £63 a month that it used to cost me to insure
3 dogs, just to insure 2 dogs. So my premiums would now cost me over £100 a month to insure 3 dogs.
Which is almost nearly double what it costs to feed all 3 and give them treats etc etc.

Pet Insurance is just rising all the time - whilst you have a relatively young dog the premiums are cheaper,
then as your dog ages and perhaps needs more trips to the vet your premiums will go up and up and up....
I used to insure my now dearly departed veteran who originally cost £6 a month to insure that was 10 years or more
ago, at the end of her life (she was 10yo) it was costing £22 per month for an unlimited policy.
My current two insured dogs aren't on an unlimited policy, but the lower fixed max £7000 per condition.

This is my argument most of us have no trouble affording teh essentials for our dogs.  Mien cost me 30p a day each to feed, so that is £1.50 a day, or £10.50 a week.  About £25 a quarter for Flea prevention, and another £15 for worming, and £25 a year for Vaccinations.

Insurance would be more expensive than all of the oehr non show expenses put together, and I simply haven't the money to spend on something that doesn't directly benefit the dog.  I woudl sooner borrow the money needed for any high vets fees and pay the Interest than Insure, definately cheaper, as you are only dealing with the expense for the given animal.

What has happened to the Third Party only cover tha you used to be able to get cheaply often as part of membership of canine sociaeties.  I suspect it has been got rid of as not making the companies money, the same as Insurance for dog clubs and small shows.

Does anyone know of a third party only policy to cover al your dogs en bloc?  I don't feel that comfortable on relying on the house Insurance.

I weould be interested in that too, Brainless. No way would I pay "health" insurance for my 6, but would happily pay a reasonable price for 3rd party only insurance.

Tried googling but all the searches come up with the full pet insurances :(  Anyone here work in Insurance ad know where I and others can just get thrid party for our mobs?????

Have just posted it as a Topic in General