Hi
I am new here on the forums. I have a dobe pup (18 weeks tomorrow)  at present he is being fed on purina pro plan puppy large breed (what he was weaned on) so we kept him on this. We have been at puppy class for the last 6 weeks but this week the trainer said that I should consider changing him onto one of the subject foods. He is rather hyper when we go there (which I thought was normal dobe behaviour??) I have no problems with the food he is on apart from he is eating alot more than recommended to keep up his weight. He is 22 kilos and is 24" from shoulder to floor. (so possibly bigger than your average 18 week pup.) I just need some advice on these foods and what is good not good etc
many thanks
Em

hi em,

my two labs are on Burns, and they love it. Never leave any. I tried JWB a long time ago, but they looked at me as if i was stupid, with a "what the hell is this???" look when i put it down for them. They won't even eat it as a 'treat'-yet they'll eat the JWB crackerjacks

why not contact burns & JWB and ask for some samples? I've tasted both, and Burns came out tops with me (although arden grange is better and tastes more like what its supposed to be...but i only tried the chicken!). The only reason i switched back to Burns from AG is because it didn't agree with my eldest dog.

a benefit to Burns is their customer service. I've contacted them a few times, and they seem to know their stuff. I found it harder to get hold of, so i used to order it direct from them. I'm quite lucky though, because the supplier i get mine from now, has what seems like every brand of dog food under the sun! If he doesn't have it, he'll get it.

Arden Grange is a good alternative-its still hypo-allergenic, but a bit cheaper than Burns and JWB. A 15kg bag of puppy Burns is around £35, JWB £37. AG is £27-or it was when i bought it. It was VAT free too.

the hyper might be the puppyness, but it might be the protein content of the Pro-Plan. I thought (but might be wrong) that the guideline was no more than 26% protein.... Pro-Plan puppy is 28%, JWB puppy & AG puppy 30% , Burns Mini-Bites 21%....

i'm biased, but i'd recommend Burns.... I've converted a few people onto it. Theres less poo to clean up, too!!

god how long was that????? Waffle waffle...

nicola x

If you are struggling to keep his weight on him with pro plan I wouldnt put him on Burns, most dogs go much leaner on Burns (which with some dogs isnt a bad thing but you dont want your pup losing too much weight) 

Why not keep him on the pro plan, the breeder obviously thinks its a good food and the reason he is hyper when he goes to training is probably because he is excited to see the other dogs ;)

Thanks for your replies. I didn't really want to change him as he is so happy on the food (eats it really well always lookng for more!) and he has no tummy problems with this so wasn't sure if she meant it would make him less hyperactive! but he is only 18 weeks and being a larger breed they do take alot longer to mature. His dad has only just got there and he is 2 years!  I think that you are right about the excitement of other dogs and people (and all the treats) he certainly isn't stupid lol he isn't hyper all the time, just has his moments!!
Thanks again
Em

I think you should definitely change him to either Burns or JWB, but don't waste the Pro-Plan - why not finish that off and then switch?

Burns and JWB are much better foods for dogs, imo.  If you're interested, I can go into more detail about why Pro Plan isn't a good food, but don't want to come over as a scare-monger.

Like the previous poster said though, Burns does seem lighter than most other foods and dogs seem to need more than the recommended amount to maintain their weight.  This isn't a bad thing necessarily, you'd just have to feed more of it.  Or you could try JWB.

Here are their websites:

www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/

www.wellbeloved.co.uk

Try to have a look at the ingredients in these foods and the ingredients in the Pro Plan, and then think about which you think is more natural.

hi onetwothree,
why do you think that proplan isn't a very good food? was just wondering as all the pups from Blades litter and the parents and grandmother all look fantastic on it. Infact blades dad often does well in the ring getting 1st. Just wanted to know what your opinion was!
Thanks
Em

Hi Em

Well, you can't just go by what dogs look like on the outside.  You also have to think about the inside and what long term effects their diet might be having on them.

These are the ingredients for Pro Plan Puppy Large breed:

Chicken (17%), Rice (15%), Maize gluten, Dehydrated poultry protein, Wheat, Maize, Oat fibre, Animal fat, Digest, Beet pulp, Dehydrated tuna protein, Hydrolysed sunflower oil (1%), Dried egg, Yeast, Fish oil, Calcium phosphate, Potassium chloride, Sodium chloride, Calcium carbonate, Minerals, L-Lysine, DL-Methionine. Copper (as Copper Sulphate) 12mg/Kg. Vitamin A 21000 IU/Kg, Vitamin D3 1600 IU/Kg, Vitamin E 170 mg/Kg, Vitamin C 70 mg/Kg. Antioxidant: Tocopherol rich extracts of natural origin.

1, there is only 17% chicken in this food. 

2, although it says that Rice is only 15%, and that doesn't sound like very much, if you look further down the list there is also Maize gluten, Wheat, Maize and Oat fibre - these are all grains as well.  So if you combine Rice, Maize gluten, Wheat, Maize and Oat fibre, the actual % of grains is really very high, much, much higher than 15%.

3, some of these grains, like Wheat, Maize and Oats, are known to trigger food allergies in dogs, or to be foods which many dogs react badly to.  This could just mean that they give your dog slightly soft stools.  Or slightly itchy skin.  It might be nothing that you'd even notice, but it is still a reaction to something in their diet which doesn't agree with them.  Foods like Burns and JWB use Rice as the only grain, and Rice is known to be one of the few grains which the majority of dogs can tolerate well.  Obviously not all dogs have a reaction to them.

4, "Animal fat" - It doesn't say what animal this animal fat comes from.  This is because it comes from many animals and is beef fat, pig fat etc etc.  It is so that they can alter their sources, depending on the market - so that they use the animal fat which is the cheapest at any point in time.  The problem with this is that a 'complete' diet is supposed to be consistent and constant - not variable.  If you are feeding your dog a food with a variable fat source, then you don't know exactly what you're feeding.  In addition, many dogs can't tolerate certain protein sources, for some reason particularly beef.  Burns and JWB don't use beef in any of their foods for this reason.  But if you feed something with 'animal fat' in it, one pack could have beef fat mixed in with that general animal fat.  Burns and JWB will always identify their meats/grains and fats.  Ie they will say 'Poultry fat', rather than 'Animal fat'.  They will say 'Duck' rather than 'Meat and animal derivatives'.  They will say 'Rice' and not 'Vegetable derivatives'.  These are some things to look out for.

5, "Sodium chloride" - this is salt - added salt.  Added salt is bad for dogs, as it is for humans. 

Not sure dobes ever mature!!!!
My dobe is 9 weeks now, and is a real loony! He is on beta puppy at the moment, but I am just starting to change over to JWB- have fed my dobes on this in the past and they did very well on it.

Hi
I have sent off for some samples of JWb to see how he gets on with it. The protein content is slightly higher than proplan, so might actually help him to keep his weight on.  Thanks again all for your help. Will let you know the outcome.
Em

I feed my 12 week old Dobe puppy on Burns and would recommend it!!!!  Whatever you decide becareful of high protein levels - burns has a low protein level which is ideal for growing puppies.....

Just had a look at the protein in JWB - I think this is way too high especially for a Dobermann puppy.  Edited to add this is just my opinion.

Liisa- what sort of problems could you get if the protein is too high, and what sort of protein level should you be looking for?

Hi Liisa,
The only reason I am looking for a high protein 30% is because Blade doesn't keep his weight well, if I feed him to the recommended amounts it just isn't enough. He is a very big pup and was when we got him. He is from Italian parents (very different to the british dobes) nicer in my opinion :0) basically he is eating the equivalent to 8 month old pup not 4 month old. and you can still feel all his ribs, can't see them, but can feel them. I have had him checked out at the vet and he is in top condition. So he obviously needs the protein unlike some pups?
Thanks for the advice anyway
Em

I always thought that you were supposed to be able to feel but not see the ribs?...also would have thought that 30% protein would be too high..could be wrong

Hi stu31,
As far as I know, you are only meant to be able to feel the last 3 or 4 ribs not the whole cage! I could be wrong though too. I know this is the case on an adult dog, but not sure on a pup as this is my first pup. Have always had adolescent dogs before.
Can anybody else inform us of the correct amount of ribs showing!
Em

As far as I know with adult dogs you should be able to feel all the ribs, and see the last one or two, depending on coat thickness.
:)

Hi Em
I have 2 of my 3 adults on JWB and have reared litters on it very successfully. I find it difficult to fault, but you have to feed the food that suits YOUR dog, be it JWB, Burns.... the list is endless.  Some dogs are just naturally lean until they mature.  I always had problems with my youngest putting on weight.  He always had a very slight covering, but like you, I just wanted a bit more. I tried various foods with him but came back to JWB and decided he would put on weight in his own sweet time, with maturity :)
At 3 years old he has just about got enough covering and looks great. :)

Hi ,
The only reason I am concerned about his weight is I want to show him, they have to be of perfect condition or will get thrown out. So just want to get it all stabilised before he shows in a few months time!
Em

I'm afraid (and I know that I'll be shouted at for this) labradors are not shown in 'perfect condition'. :( They are shown fat - ask people from any other breed - and even ask people who work their labs. All the show labs I've seen (and I watched them a lot) would need to lose a good few pounds before they could clear a five-bar gate carrying a pheasant.

JG, I think Emz77 has a Doberman, not a lab, unless I have missed something

:o Oops! Yep, I was so busy reading another thread that I got the two muddled! My apologies! :o

lol Jeangenie

Hi,
I'm not wanting him fat for showing, I just want to keep him as he is now, but as he is growing it is harder to keep the balance as heis growing so very fast! He has been putting on about 6-8 kilos a month since we had him. and is 4 times the height he was easily and we have only had him 8 weeks. Just want to make sure that I keep him looking as good as he is at the moment! seeing as he is my first pup, I'm not sure of all the body changes he is going through and whether they are all normal.
Thanks
Em

Pups do go through a leggy, lanky stage where they tend to look awful! However once the upward growth slows down they start to fill out and usually end up looking normal again.
:)

I show mine too, and they look great on JWB, I find it very easy to keep their weight at a constant level.  My 9 year old does very well in his veteran classes, and he suffers with Pancreatitis. 
I agree that most breeds will go through a leggy stage, the boys more than the girls for some reason.

  regarding the Doberman puppy and wobble's syndrome. Because there appears to be a nutritional link to this disease. In order to prevent Wobbler's nutritionally, you can feed a high quality adult formula instead of puppy formulas which contain extra protein and calcium and reduce the protein levels in the dog's food to less that 22%-24%,also elevate food and water bowls to reduce strain on the neck
Thanks and all the best

hi,
he does already has his bowls raised, and he has been bred for health if you check out his pedigree it is fantastic. didn't think you could feed a puppy adult food as the vit and minerals etc are all different? Can you tell me more
Em

Em, I would just stick to the JWB Junior food until he's 12 mnths, then change to adult.

I have a large breed too (not a dobe) and mine have been fine on this.

Em a lot of owners of large breeds dont feed puppy food at all becuae it promotes to fast a growth,which by your description your pup has been doing.They put their pups straight onto Adult food.

Someone said to avoid high protein foods as it makes them grow too quick,it's not so much the protein you should be worried about,it the calcium amount in the food.

I have never found a high protein level has put weight on any of mine, I find a high fat content is far better at filling them out.   Infact, Curtis at 3 years old is still fed completes with fat contents of 15-20%.

Please DO NOT raise the food bowls!!!!!  This can increase the risk of Bloat - (pm me your email address and I can send you some articles).  I have had a bitch with bloat and it is frightening!!!

I also have a male Dobermann from european bloodlines, he is 2.5 now and still looks like a greyhound.  Some dogs will keep the weight and some wont no matter what you do.  I seriously would nto recommend over feeding your pup just to keep weight on him for the show ring - is it worth putting his health at risk for the ring?  Show people (and I am one of them) like their dobes fat which is not healthy.  My male is way to 'thin' for the ring but 3 vets have told me he is a healthy weight.

This is taken from the Burns website:

"Breeders and owners love to see plump, roly-poly youngsters which seem to epitomise good health and proper care. In the same way fat babies were once admired but this is now frowned on by health professionals.

In practice, more health problems result from over-nutrition than from lack of adequate nutrition. Although severe underfeeding will stunt growth, slight underfeeding during growth will actually reduce health problems in adulthood.

There is undisputed evidence that a high intake of protein and fat early on in life leads to skeletal disorders such as hip dysplasia, obesity and a shortened lifespan. Behavioural problems especially hyperactivity can often be attributed to the same cause. Skin disease which used to be seen mostly in older pets now seems to be prevalent in the young also.

In spite of this most proprietary pet foods for growth have very high level of protein and fat and this is even promoted as a virtue. ( "The first ingredient is meat! ! !) The key to having a healthy puppy is to feed enough to ensure a slow rate of growth rather than for the puppy to shoot. A puppy which grows slowly will still realise its growth potential but may take a little longer to reach full size."

A puppy from my recent litter was fed on a well know hight quality puppy food and at 9 weeks of age he was sent (by his vet) to a bone specialist because his front legs had 'turned out' (sorry cant describe it any other way).  Myself and the stud dog owner told the puppys owners to drop the protein in the food and his legs would improve but they went to the specialist who knocked the puppy out for xrays and the results came back all clear and the advice was that the protein level was too high and it was causing his bones to grow too fast.  The owners dropped the protein level and now at 12 weeks his legs are fine.

>>Please DO NOT raise the food bowls!!!!!  This can increase the risk of Bloat

Just want to say that the same has been said about feeding deep chested dogs with bowls on the floor. searching throws up lots of people for raised feeders and lots against.
this article is interesting.

Sorry about your bitch thou Liisa. :)

thank fully she made a good recovery and did not need surgery :-) some articles do contradict one and other and can confuse people ... I am bloat obsessed now it has happened, sadly not all dogs survive it