Hi

For a vareity of reasons our pup is not crated overnight and has the run of the kitchen. Consequently his toilet training success is sporadic with some nights good (only one puddle) and some nights bad (several puddles and pressies!!). We clean up said areas with biological washing powder and do not scold him in any form when we find these little "surprises". Although he is only 12 weeks I would like to try and get some consistency with him.

I appreciate that most people use crates these days to aid toilet training. However, does anyone have any tips or advice on how to train in this sort of environment??

Thanks for your help.

Are you getting up in the middle of the night to let the puppy out to toilet?

To be honest Jane, no we are not. I fully appreciate this would help the process along, although we started doing this when we got him and both were very tired within a few days. I don't mind a bit of mess, he is only 12 weeks after all, I am just looking for help without the crate, as it seems most people toilet train their pups with crates these days.

I take him out very last thing and first thing in the morning. Problem is in the last two days he has pooed in the house - something he has never done before. I just don't understand why he has changed this habit?

what time does he go out for his last wee etc and what time do you let him out again in the morning?
Whether you use a crate or not is a bit irrelavant as at 12wks he is still a baby and cannot physically hold his bowel/bladder for long periods of time.

>>Problem is in the last two days he has pooed in the house - something he has never done before.I just don't understand why he has changed this habit?

Have you altered the time of the last feed or the time he goes to bed?is he eating more?
these can alter bowel habits.

I toilet trained without a crate but it did mean getting up a couple of times a night initially and gradually increasing the time between trips outside til we were just getting up once until she was at the stage where she didn't need out at all at night (she is 6 months old now). To be honest, it didn't interfere with our sleep that much as we were only up for a few minutes at a time and the OH and I took turns at getting up. If you're not prepared to get up in the night, then you'll proabably just have to accept that you'll be cleaning up wee and poo for a bit longer than you might be otherwise :)

Hi Jls22

We've managed to toilet train our pup (now 18 weeks old Labrador) kind of without a crate - we have a crate but leave the door open the whole time as she like to use it as a den but gets frantic if locked in.  I think it probably took us longer that some of the members who will post on here that used crates properly.  We didn't get up in the night either, but we did have a lot of cleaning up to do in a morning with a puppy jumping all over us!!!!

Kiera has a rare accident now and then but not usually through the night, I think it really is just time and something just clicks on in their little heads to say 'this is my home and I dont' want to use it as a toilet any more'.  We were given a great tip by our trainer though (when we started to get a bit frustrated ;)) He asked us if we were leaving a door open a lot when we were at home - he siad that in his experience giving a young puppy free access to the garden blurs the boundaries between inside and outside - so they think they can pee anywhere.  As soon as we started only letting Kiera out with us, she was toilet trained really quickly.

Best of luck with your puppy, it's hard work toilet training and very frustrating at times!!!
Nicky

Our 22 week springer has the run of the kitchen during the night.  We didnt like the idea of a crate to be honest, so she has a proper bed for night time and a big cushion for the day (to be put in which ever room we are in!).  She had been sort of house trained when we got her, but started to do puddles in the dining area of the kitchen, most nights.  According to a book we were given in a new puppy pack, from the breeder, the advice is to put down newspaper in the areas where she wees, and if she is caught short, she wees on the paper.  We did this just for a week, and she seemed to take to it ok.  Apparently once they get into the habit of weeing on the paper, the paper should be moved nearer the door, and then eventually out side.  Not quite got to that stage, but at least the we know where she has weed!!!!  Hope this helps anyway, good luck.

Hi, can I ask what the 'variety of reasons' are that you don't want to use a crate?

You don't need to use a crate for the rest of the dog's life, but it does incredibly speed up toilet training.  You could stop using one as soon as the pup is toilet trained.

Crates aren't cruel - they are a management device....

With our pups, we get up twice a night for at least 2 weeks after getting them.  Then we reduce that to once a night.  They are crated and taken out to toilet, then put back in the crate.  None have ever messed in their crate overnight and so far all of them have been toilet trained by 10 wks at the latest.

You have a choice - invest in a crate and/or get up a couple of times a night for a couple of weeks. 

Or just accept that toilet training is going to take months, not weeks.  What would you rather do - get it all over and done with quickly, or let it drag on forever?  I know what I'd choose.

Every time your pup messes inside, it's more likely to go inside again, because dogs are creatures of habit.  If this is happening night after night, that's quite some habit you're going to have to break...

Hi Onetwothree

Based on my experience as a new dog owner (Kiera is my first ever puppy, I had literally no experience at all) I'd have to disagree that it takes months to train a pup without a crate.  We wanted to use a crate - in fact we do have one in the kitchen and we tried to use it but Kiera hated it, she went mad if we closed the door and left the room and messed all over herself which was horrible (worse than cleaningthe floor as we had to bath her as well).  We opted to keep the crate but leave her with the run of the kitchen at night and we've never got up in the middle of the night to let her out.  She's 18 weeks and has been clean apart from the odd very very rare accident for about 2 and a half weeks.

I think if you reward a dog for doing it's busines outside they soon get the idea.... Kiera is a lab though and I understand they are easier to train that smaller breeds.

In response to the other posters comments about newspaper - we did use paper but as a method of making the cleaning up easier - it didn't work in terms of moving it towards the door and then getting rid of it altogether....

Nx

Nicky - all dogs are different and all dogs learn at different rates.  Of course there are dogs such as yours which can learn 'toilet training', and maybe other things, given less than optimal conditions.  Just as there are lots of dogs which can learn a 'retrieve' if you just chuck a ball and encourage them back.  But there will also be many, many dogs which need consistency, praise for going out, and to be allowed to build up a habit of going in the right place (outside, not inside).  In the same way as many dogs can't learn a retrieve from having a ball chucked and need to have a retrieve broken down into component parts and each part be taught separately.  From what the original poster says, their dog is not finding toilet training easy and they would like it to go faster.  What I'm doing is suggesting some things that will help it to go faster for them....

Just because something worked for your lab, doesn't mean that it 'should' work for other dogs, especially ones having problems...

As for the paper training idea, imo this is a bad idea.  You are effectively having to train the pup to do something twice - at first you are telling the pup 'it's ok to go inside', then when you remove the paper, it's suddenly 'not ok to go inside'.  This would be v confusing to an adult dog which has been trained in lots of other behaviours and has a good relationship with its handler, let alone retraining a little pup.  In addition, the number of people who tell me that their dog wees on their Sunday newspaper whenever they lie it down is evidence enough to suggest that paper training has drawbacks...

I like to use crates to seperate pup from adults dogs at night and because a dog, happy to use a crate, is generally more welcome when staying anywhere but I don't think they are at all essential for housetraining.
I use a puppy pen, because of the seperation from adults issue, but any small area with a washable floor would be just as effective, with the puppy sleeping in an open cage attached.  I never get up in the night as I think a good nights sleep is an enormous asset when expecting to apply the necessary vigilance and consistancy during the day which is what really trains a puppy fast in my experience not to mention enabling the ability to keep a sense of stress free, humour going :)  I am not going to quantify how long it takes to get my pups housetrained as they all vary and people get upset if theirs is not coming along as well :) but suffice to say the speed at which I achieve it assures me my nighttime routine is not inhibiting the process at all.
Of course even if the pup has quickly picked up how to go about things in the day it may still use the paper at night because of course its little bladder will not last but I don't see that as any big deal as a quick clean up in the morning sorts it and I find they just stop weeing in the night as soon as they physically can.  As soon as the puddles disappear at night, sometimes as young as 12 weeks, I remove the pen and puppy is settled in the crate at night but obviously if someone was choosing not to use a crate they would just stop bothering to put down any paper if they were using it as a cleaning up aid.

I don't crate overnight, and also don't get up in the night unless I ahve to :D

I just accept that the pup will puddle overnight, and or have occasional accidents, and that these will stop once the pup is able to go longer without needing to toilet with maturity.

In the day I ensure amnple opportunities to toilet in the right place accompanying pup outside and praising lavishly.

The five dogs I won have all been clean at night as well as day by 6 months.

I am now coming full circle where I find my 13 1/2 year old has accidents if left and I ahven't made sure to make her go out before I leave, and occasionally at night :D  These as with those in her babyhood are cleared up without comment.

I've never used crates, and have successfully house-trained! I only put down paper when I'm going to be out - otherwise pup is being watched like a hawk by me or another family member. I don't get up in the night to let them out, either - I accept there are going to be puddles and poos overnight, so I mop up without a fuss as soon as I've taken pup outside first thing. They all get there in time - generally the more effort I've put in the quicker the results I get.