Hi everyone, I am currently changing over to burns puppy minibites after advice from my puppy trainer. At the moment luckily i have enough PC to gradually change over, i think a change would be good also for her hyperactivity which funnily enough seems to happen 3 times a day not long after eating! I just want to know how much i should reduce the burns by if i will be adding naturediet. I cant afford to give her alot of naturediet so she will only be having one or two tablespoons added, I know she wont like the burns by itself. I received my 15kg (massive!) pack today and by the weekend she should be fully on burns (i started gradually on sunday). The other worry i have is that because she is a gsd cross should she be having the other burns puppy food they do, canine extra, its for larger breeds and i think it has added vitamins and things like that. I have refrained from calling the helpline as a few people on here have said they dont always offer the correct advice. I hope I havnt bought the wrong one as £35 is a lot of money to waste. Will she be okay with this or should i buy some canine extra to mix in with the minibites and naturediet? Thanks for any info guys.

Sorry, forgot to mention she is 16 weeks old GSD cross rottie (eighth rottie)

Hi there

I feed all mine on Burns and Naturediet, my 6 mth pup gets just under the prescibed amount of burns, 10grams for every kilo with just a little slither od Naturediet under a quarter of a pack, twice a day.
I would keep her on the minibites and then mix her onto the canine extra.

I have never had any problems with the Burns helpline and have always found them to be brillaint, after all who knows their product better than them.

Goodluck!! :)

>> after all who knows their product better than them.

yes i agree with that, but some dont know their breeds of dog :(

edited to add be guided by your dogs condition as some require a bit more and some a bit less than the reccomended amount ie 20grms per kg body weight in puppy down to 10grms per kg in adult..
i have to feed slightly more than stated on bag for my 8mth malamute :)

Sorry yes you are right, puppy gets 20 grams! My big ones get 10 grams.

'...after all who knows their product better than them'

your right, i decided to contact them and they were very helpful! cheers blondiflops

>>should she be having the other burns puppy food they do, canine extra, its for larger breeds

Sorry i missed that bit, my is a large breed sled dog (8mths) and he's on adult chicken and rice, no problems here with feeding it.

As for the adding naturediet i feed a whole pack every day and take out 100grms of burns to compensate, the balance seems right for my dog.
If you are only feeding a tablespoon or two ( whats that about 1 10th of the pack ) i would reduce the burns by about 10 grms and see how it goes. you can adjust it up or down depending on wether your pups looking thinner or fatter. :)

hope that helps

edited to say you would be better off on ordinary adult as the active has a higher protein content which may cause pup to grow too fast, best leave the active til most of the growing is done.

gorgeous dog janeandkai, cheers for the help. I did end up contacting burns through email and they basically said the same. Apparantly GSD's are not very good with canine extra because they have delicate stomachs and it may be too high in protein and fat. They told me to stay on mini bites til 6 months then change to adult.

ah thankyou new owner, we think so even if he hasnt stopped growing yet

i noticed you payed £35 for a bag of burns, if you shop around you may be able to get it cheaper than that. i pay £30.99 per 15kg bag and im in the north east of scotland where you usually get penalised for being sooo far north. try checking out agricultural/animal feed supply shops, we have a boarding kennels that sell feed aswell and they are where i get it from. Or you may get lucky ordering online, unlike me, big delivery charges :(

Good luck with the food and hope he enjoys it :)

I called Burns about my GSD pup who is 13 weeks. She loves Burns, but often doesn't finish her meals. I was advised to give her Burns Canine Extra during periods when she is off her food as you require less of it for the weight of your dog compared to Mini-Bites apparently, but I am going to swap her onto Canine Extra anyway as she seems to prefer it.

>>Apparantly GSD's are not very good with canine extra because they have delicate stomachs and it may be too high in protein and fat. They told me to stay on mini bites til 6 months then change to adult.

>>I was advised to give her Burns Canine Extra during periods when she is off her food

Now what was it i said earlier about the people on burns feeding line

>> after all who knows their product better than them.
>>yes i agree with that, but some dont know their breeds of dog

proves my point, same breed, both pups and  two conflicting pieces of advise from the same company :rolleyes:

exactly! Which is why i refrained from contacting them in the first place. I will keep her on minibites i think unless its obvious she isnt happy on them. Thats why I posted my question on here, id rather get the opinion of people that have used burns before than trusting someone who is maybe reading the info off of a computer screen and has maybe never owned a dog before.

We had our 2 year old rottie Mishka on Burns at one point (we're now barfers). If I didn't mix nature Diet in she would be a bit funny with it. Half the time I swear that she'd only eat it to stop our other dogs getting it, and on the odd occasion she would grab mouthfuls of it and deposit them on her bed!

Just out of interest where did you buy your nature diet from? We bought in bulk direct which saved us quite a bit - Its very expensive from the shops. We bought burns active from our local kennels for about £27.

is that question at me Giruff re naturediet ?

If so... i buy mine from our local kennel shop, 2 cases at a time, each case ( 18 packs in each) £10.99 equivalent to 61p'ish a pack.
i could probably get it cheaper on line but then i get seriously stung on delivery charges as im between inverness and aberdeen ( for some strange reason they think thats the highlands and charge you even more :( )

I know. We ordered from surrey pet supplies as they did them quite cheap at one point. Delivery was a bit, but it was still cheaper. However, they put their prices up and also sent us several cases that went off in a month - quicker than our lot could get through it! I complained but it didn't get me anywhere so i didn't buy from there again.

We had all 3 of our dogs just on nature diet at one point. We ordered direct from Nature Diet and they'd charge £8.85 a case for 10+ cases including 48 hour delivery which wasn't bad.

I just searched here for my nearest stockist http://www.naturediet.net/stockist_locator/index.html . Only thing is though it came up with my local pet shop and puppy packets were 70p each! I just bought a few to see if she liked them and believe me she does. Ill look online now to see if I can buy in bulk, 70p each is an awful lot which is why she is only getting a few tablespoons each meal!

Hi new owner
i wouldn't go by there stockist locator as i have just searched on their site for my area, and neither of my 2 suppliers is listed at all, in fact there are no suppliers at all according to their site
much better to phone round your local indepandant pet food suppliers :)

Probably worth a try =)

If you can buy in bulk try nature diet themselves. Like I said, they sell a case for £8.95 each including delivery if you can buy 10 cases at a time - that brings it down to just under 50p per 390g packet.

is the delivery included to the n/e of scotland aswell??

You'd be better of asking them that , rather than me.

According to the terms and conditions that I have they only dont deliver to IV40+, KQ 15-17,  PA14+, Isle of Wight, Guernsey, Jersy, Isle of Man, Northern Ireland, Eire.

There is also a £10 surcharge to postcode areas AB, DD, DG, FK, IV, KA, KW, PA, PH nad TD - however, if you buy 10 cases at 8.95 thats still only 9.95 a case which is still cheaper than the shops. Obviously if you bought more cases it would be more worth while - perhaps try and find someone locally (like via a dog training class) that you could split an order with or something.

..I should start charging commission ;) ;)

thanks for that Giruff :)
yep i get the extra delivery charge there aswell :(
oh the joys of living amongst beautiful scenery.... its hard enough to find other doggies out on walks, never mind a local person to split the order with lol . Never mind perhaps when i have enough room to store 6mths supply and the big bags of burns in such a place as the 4 legged vacumn cleaner cant get at .... i can order direct.
still at least im keeping a local supplier in business and at a price thats less than the big shops are charging :)
incidently they are cheaper than burns direct for the adult feed so i guess im still making a saving on one half of the feed :D :D

Hi New Owner,

I think you should just go by your pup and what she looks like, in terms of amounts.  If she looks too skinny, give her more.  

As for the Canine Extra versus Mini Bites...

I believe these are very similar in terms of content - if you look at the ingredients, you'll see this.  The main difference is that Canine Extra is larger kibble and Mini Bites are what they say they are - mini kibble!  IMO, if you have a large breed pup, you'd be better off on the Canine Extra because it's been known for large breed pups to breathe their kibble in and choke on it, especially if excited or eating fast.  Only a few years ago, Mini Bites didn't exist and all pups were on Canine Extra.  But it's not such a big problem to make you waste a bag, so I'd just finish that bag and get Canine Extra next time.

In addition, I wouldn't feed the regular Adult varieties to a pup, which someone above seems to suggest.  Pups are growing and need the nutrients and vitamins and minerals in the pup food (Canine Extra or Mini Bites) - it's not just a case of the puppy food having more fat and protein - there are other nutrients which a pup needs, which is the reason behind all puppy foods!  Otherwise we'd all be feeding our puppies on adult food and puppy foods wouldn't exist!  The other reason puppy foods are needed is because puppies have very small stomachs compared to adult dogs, and they can only eat so much at one meal (which is why you should give 4 meals a day to them when you first get them).  Puppy foods must contain more protein and fats per 100gs, so that your pup can actually eat enough without getting full too soon, and still consume all s/he needs in terms of nutrients. 

Burns suggest feeding puppy food (Canine Extra or Mini Bites) till 9 months, then switching to their Adult varieties.

Also - someone above is talking about Active - this is another type of Burns altogether and for working dogs, not pups.

>>Burns suggest feeding puppy food (Canine Extra or Mini Bites) till 9 months, then switching to their Adult varieties

onetwothree

>>They told me to stay on mini bites til 6 months then change to adult.

new owner

Again we see conflicting advice from the same company. i too was told 6 mths on puppy then upto adult feed.

onetwothree do you have a large breed?
just wondering if thats why you was told different to us :)

Yes, I have a large breed ...

Weird.  They definitely said 9 months to me.

it is weird isnt it.... especially when they then said to me start cutting the portions so he would be on 10grms per kg at 10 mths old he's still growing til past a year old ... needless to say i have ignored that piece of advise :D

It is strange, i think i will maybe carry on until she is 9 months. Someone above said that canine extra is less amount as well, that kind of puts me off as she is now completly on burns and naturediet and i have never seen her eat a meal as fast, sometimes she even digs in the bowl for more. I dont know how she would be with less amount of food. she is around 25kg so i have been giving her 450g through the day (3 portions of 150g) plus one and a half tablespoons of naturediet. I just wondered if anyone knows, do i have to reduce her daily amount of food to compensate for treats like apple or carrots etc..? I thought as this was the kind of food humans could have inbetween meals then maybe it wouldnt affect her weight. I was giving her cheese as treats but i think its upsetting her stomach slightly, noticed if she has a lot of cheese for her treats her stools are not quite as firm and kind of yellowish in colour, yet morning and late evening stools are fine.

Hi onetwothree, thats interesting what you say about the canine extra having larger kibble. My gsd does occasionally 'choke' well rather inhale small treats and kibble, she kind of coughs once straight away and it shoots across the floor. I will definatly look at the percentages of protiens etc and see if they are similar, i hadnt thought of doing this.

I also thought it strange that they should be on adult at 6 months as a lot of other brands suggest changing when pup is a year old. Unless i have this wrong i thought it was because growing pups need extra protiens etc.. while they were growing, and gsd as they are a larger breed take longer to reach adult size, so surely that should mean they need puppy food for longer. She definatly said it was 6months

Burns reply by email:

'Thank you for your recent e-mail enquiry.

We do use the Burns MInibites for ALL breeds of puppies up until 6 months of age. Although you have a large breed pup the Minibites should be adequate for your puppy.

GSD are prone to delicate stomachs and the Canine Extra is sometimes too high in protein and fat for them.

If you find that your puppy is not satisfied or is too lean on the Minibites we would then mix in some of the canine Extra at a ratio of 50/50% with the Minibites.

Most GSD's will be on the Minibites and then move to the Adult Maintenance foods at 6 months of age with no problems.

We hope this is beneficial.'

>> also thought it strange that they should be on adult at 6 months as a lot of other brands suggest changing when pup is a year old. Unless i have this wrong i thought it was because growing pups need extra protiens etc.. while they were growing, and gsd as they are a larger breed take longer to reach adult size, so surely that should mean they need puppy food for longer.

I was told it is far better for large breeds to have longer slower growth from 6mths upto full grown, as a faster growth will put too much strain on the body and lead to problems, hence going on to adult food with a lower protein %.
mini bites 21%
canine extra 24%
adult 18.5%

Yes, in theory, but it doesn't work like that in practice, Jane.  By that I mean - pups are like children and all young mammals - they grow between certain ages.  If you restrict the food or nutrients you give a young animal, you don't just slow down its growth so that it reaches its genetic height/size but at a slower pace.  Instead it just won't grow to its full potential and will be stunted.  It's best not to try to control this too much.

Even humans, in medieval times and earlier, were smaller - largely due to poor nutrition during childhood.  Even today, people in 3rd world countries tend to be shorter and smaller than those in developed countries.  And if you took a young adult from a 3rd world country and suddenly gave him/her the diet of the developed world, s/he wouldn't shoot up to be the same size as other people in the developed world because s/he would have missed out during childhood.  On the other hand, babies which are adopted out of 3rd world countries do often grow to be as tall/large as others in the developed world.

Which is all to say - puppyhood is the optimum time for growth.  It's horrible to have a pup too fat because that does affect bone development etc - but to have a pup too thin is just as bad....

It's best to go by what you see and feel.  If you think the pup is looking too thin, feed more - if too fat, feed less.

ok i agree with

>>If you restrict the food or nutrients you give a young animal, you don't just slow down its growth so that it reaches its genetic height/size but at a slower pace.  Instead it just won't grow to its full potential and will be stunted.

but i never said anything about restricting food or nutrients did i?
I merely said that too much protein after 6 mths can cause growth problems,
which is why i prefer to feed the ordinary adult feed after 6mths rather than the extra. This was not only advised by burns but my breeder aswell, and she has 2 perfectly grown mals ( both within breed standard)
My pup (8mths old) is neither fat or thin and has a nice covering on his ribs and has had good steady growth.

At the end of the day its each to there own really, i would rather he takes a couple of extra months reaching his full potential safely than get there too quickly and risk damage, after all once the damage is done you cant undo it. :)

Yes, but pups aren't fully grown at 6 months - in fact, with large breeds, they might just be getting there at 12 months and then continue to fill out until 18 months.

So imo they still need a puppy food at 6 months.  A small breed, on the other hand, might be fine stopping the puppy food at 6 months.

I never said that pups are fully grown at 6mths either... and am well aware of how long it will take my pup to reach full grown.(incidently the 2 other dogs i had were a gsd and a irish wolfhoundX)
I did not get a Mal without doing extensive research into this breed not only from bks etc but by talking to other breeders/owners aswell thankyou.

>>So imo they still need a puppy food at 6 months

Thats right thats your opinion and your entitled to it. But i shall continue feeding as advised not just by burns themselves but by the breeders/owners of mals who have raised pups on the same feeding regime and have nice fully grown healthy dogs with no ill health/growth effects. Each breed is different and after all they know my breed :)

I agree with Janeandkai, and with my large breed they are definately not on puppy food at 6 months, too much protein. JMO and my breeders and others in the same breed :)