Hi,

Just a small query about the Silver level of the KC Good Citizen Dog Scheme - When they have to do the sit/stay for two minutes, do they have to stay SITTING for the whole two minutes or can they go into the down position as long as they do not move from the spot?  I know they don't have to sit for the test, it can be a standing or down position but I was led to believe that they could change position as long as they didn't move forward/backwards etc.

Any advice gratefully received.

A

For the silver they have to stay in the same position whether its a down or sit. I found it easier to train in the down for this as she was less likely to fidget. :) good luck with the test :)

yes I chose to do it in the down but once down they cant go into the sit they are only allowed to move thier head (thats the way I understood it anyway) remember to put thier hip over to the side as I find this makes them stay put!!

~Roni

We have always done our stay in the "down" position for  our tests :)

Two of my dogs have sat (and passed ;-) ) their silver award and when doing the 2 minute stay, we were told that they could change position. My two boys sat the test under two different examiners and they both said the same. TBH, I think it depends on the examiner. I chose for mine to do the stay in the down position as they tend to be less fidgety this way

According to the blurb which comes for the Silver, the purpose of the exercise (written in Bold!) states: Note: This exercise is a test to see if the dog will stay in one place without changing position. Minor movements & slight changes in position are acceptable. Don't think a change from sit to down or down to sit could be described as minor.

>Don't think a change from sit to down or down to sit could be described as minor.

I agree Anwen. Sadly though some examiners are far too lax and some organisers are only out to get a 100 % pass rate and so things like a dog laying dog during a sit is ignored. I've seen so many dogs pass all 3 levels without being ready at all...... Like in the Gold where the dog should stop at a distance of 10 paces from the handler, I've seen ones pass that stopped ONE step away from the handler...(Had that been a real situation the dog could have been killed, that is after all the whole purpose with the test -safety for both the dog and other people and dogs!)  I've seen dogs pass Bronze that were held on the lead with the owner stood right NEXT to it with both hands on the lead during the stay. I've seen one dog who was given 4 chances in bronze to do her stay, broke it every single time then STILL got her certificate. It is very disheartening at times because it is unfair on those that DO do it correctly. I have heard simialr stories from other people so don't think it is just confined to the tests I've witnessed and/or taken part in (which haven't all been staged by the same people.) :(

Totally agree Goldmali. The examiner we had for the bronze was a bit of a 'sargent major' type, very strict and the rules were there to be followed exactly. Luckily Maddie was last and we waited two hours as we all went seperately and she just obeyed out of sheer boredom I think. With the silver it was a bit more relaxed, even though we all did it together, and even though some broke the stay, she managed to pass with flying colours. But the gold! We were practising for this before she became ill. The hardest part was getting her to stop at 10 paces and also getting her to go on her bed, she just had too much fun with this one :D I will try again eventually when she's fit enough but all but one of the rest of the class passed, though I believe Abbey did pass second time around :)

Unfortunately, I think it's true that standards of examiners (or rather the standards that they accept) varies greatly at all levels. Some are ridiculously strict & some far too lenient, which is a shame because I think the tests are a very good idea. Personally, under some circumstances I'm all in favour of giving a dog a 2nd chance, particularly at the bronze level BUT if the dog still doesn't do it right then it has to fail -  or rather be classed as "not ready". There's no point in taking the tests otherwise. I haven't yet got to Gold with mine - that Stop is going to take years, I think. :D

And Maddie with hers :D :D  Molly only has her bronze at the moment,, she won't sit or lie down for longer than about 10 seconds! I've given up on her for now but hopefully we will get back to training soon :)

>I haven't yet got to Gold with mine - that Stop is going to take years, I think.

No it won't . :) All of a sudden it will just click I bet. :) I've done Gold with 5 dogs so far, 3 on one night and 2 on another. ;) The youngest at 11 months, the oldest at 9 ½ years, LOL. One little tip: Keep your feet differently when you do a recall and when you intend to do a stopped recall. I have my feet slightly apart for a recall, leaving space for the dog to come into the correct positon. If I am going to do a interrupted recall, I have my feet close together. (Then when I call again after the stop, I move them apart.) All my dogs quickly learnt that this meant they were going to stop, and so they set off at a slower pace. I find it helped a lot. I also use different commands, I don't use "come" if I am going to stop them.

I'm due to judge some KCGC tests later this year/early next year. I haven't looked the in the instructions to examiners yet as I've got one more Obedience class to judge this month so will be studying after that is over

I do think some examiners are way too lax & the same examiner can also be way too strict for example. I did the bronze with one of my BC's at the very start of KCGC & whilst he was doing the stay the dog next to him(a boxer bitch)got up , bit him in the face & obviously he broke his stay. He failed & the bitch that bit him passed ! Totally against what the KCGC is about but the police dog handler who was the examiner told me that my BC had obviously growled at the boxer & frightened her ! As my BC's do the down the flat position, his head away from the boxer & he didn't moved until after she bit him I couldn't see how he could have prevoked her as he couldn't see her. The examiner replied with ah but he growled at her earlier(he hadn't she had gone for a lab !) I didn't do any more KCGC personally after that, but did train up two of the cavaliers who passed with a YKC member first time.

I certainly will not be lax & I would expect a degree of control at the bronze level, but the stays have changed from being off lead I think, at least there shouldn't be any interdog attacks

>I certainly will not be lax & I would expect a degree of control at the bronze level, but the stays have changed >from being off lead I think, at least there shouldn't be any interdog attacks

It's people like you that are needed. :)

The stays are with the lead ON, but laid on the floor, so not held on to. :) This is what it says:

>Stay in one position on command, on lead. The handler should place the dog with the lead attached in a position >of their choice i.e. stand, sit or down. Upon instruction, having quietly dropped the lead on the ground next to >the dog, the handler will move a distance of five paces away for a period of one minute.

lolol told you I hadn't read anything yet ! At least I won't have to look for extra body signals etc like I have to do in Obedience(well at least in the classes I've judged this year)

I find it odd that people like dog wardens & police dog handlers are automatically OK to assess KCGC I'm used to judging a dog & handler as a team & to me that is what there should be with all dogs & their owners to some degree a happy relationship with mutual respect(lol must tell my puppy he should respect me ;) )  I don't quite see that every dog warden & police dog handler will be good at doing that even though the KC guidelines do mention that they should be versed in dog ownership etc Around here simply doing the job means they get asked & accept to act as examiners !

>I don't quite see that every dog warden & police dog handler will be good at doing that even though the KC >guidelines do mention that they should be versed in dog ownership etc

Very true. When I've done any of the tests under a dog warden, they've not usually known anything at all about the GC, so have just been told by the people in charge at the club in question what to do. The best people I have been under have been obedience judges. Contrary to what some people seem to think, they DO know it isn't an obedience exercise with perfect heelwork etc, and they have all been very fair. :)

Oh well, I'm glad my dogs stayed in the down and that they passed on merit ;-). One of my boys sat his bronze at the SKC a couple of years ago and the examiner there just made a farce out of the whole thing. The examiner was going over the dogs, checking ears etc (which I don't think is required until the silver) and one dog there was snapping and growling at the examiner and the handler. We were told at our training club that any form of aggression like that would result in a fail. Anyway, my boy broke the stay with about 5 secs left to go - the examiner failed him straight out and passed the aggressive one even though the handler couldn't do a damn thing with him. He then proceeded on giving the handler tips on how to help his behaviour!!  I wouldn't have had a problem with my boy failing had the other dog not passed but I was well ticked off ;-)  This was all after another two dogs were allowed to sit the test even though they had no name tags on, the owners had no poo bags etc. Mine was the only one to fail just because he sat for 55 secs instead of 60.  He passed when we sat it again a few months later though.

That's very annoying and extremely unfair of your examiner. Glad he passed next time! My puppy just passed her bronze - she did the stays and everything else ok, but worried me slightly in the heelwork with distractions bit as she didnt want to walk so close to the bouncy Boxer! My 3 year old Cav passed his Gold in May, and the Yankee failed his stays. I asked if he couldn't try the stays again then and there but they said no. :-( I know it all has to be done correctly on the day, but does it have to be first time?

Thanks for all the replies.

Unfortunately she failed the silver on her sit/stay part of the test but did everything else perfectly!  She sat on her hip and didn't move from the spot and then decided to lie down, still on the same spot, and just looked at me..lol  The training class isn't strict and allows this but as I have discovered the examiner is strict and won't allow this.  I am going to have to bring it up with the trainer as this is the wrong way to learn and carry out their training.  I was also annoyed as a couple of other dogs did their sits but weren't as good at their recalls and it appeared that the examiner was leanient on them.

I know that I have well behaved dogs and was doing this as fun for me and the dogs but when this happens at the test/classes it takes all the enjoyment out of it.  I think if I give it a few weeks I'll have gotten over my disappointment and can try again.

Crustyroll

That's a shame, the trainer I worked with did her best to find examiners whose standards she knew to avoid conflicts like this :(

The best thing to do is ask the KC for a list of approved examiners in your area ie ones that have attended a seminar on the GC scheme and passed the exam.

They started this to ensure consistency of approach.

However the current rules allow Dog Wardens or Show Judges who may have no experience in this type of testing to officiate which devalues the accomplishments of those who have been more rigourously tested.

That's interesting as one of the local dog wardens is on the KC list & is hopeless She's very good at passing tests etc then when she does a KCGC on her own she passes everyone(including one dog that was quite aggressive towards it owner !)her own dogs are really badly behaved too !