this is a follow-up on a previous post. i explained that my puppy has a habbit shying away with the hair on her back raised and snapping/growling and any stranger who tries to touch her. i was advised to hold her in my arms and let people come towards her but not to let them touch her but to let her sniff the person and let them give her a treat but without trying to stroke her so she gets used to people in her own time. i have tried this and she will take the treat of the people without hassle. the problem i now have has more to do with the people than with my pup. as soon as she takes the treat out of the persons hand they immediatley pet her even though i asked them not pet her and explained why i am doing this in the first place. one woman even went so far as to put her face next to sasha and kiss her, which really agitated sasha and she snapped at this womans face. i didn't punish her as i felt i had no right to, after all she was scared and i had explained to the woman what sasha's problem is. how can i ease sasha's fears if people won't do as i asked them. sasha is fine with strangers when they come into the house, but as soon as she steps outside our garden gate she becomes a different dog, even when i carry her. where can i find people who can help instead of making it worse. any idea will be appreciated.

You're right to be concerned about other people's behaviour.  I wouldn't even let them give her a treat to start with to be quite honest, as even that may be pushing her too far to start with :(  You might have to take a few steps back and just let her watch (maybe from between your legs sitting on a park bench). I never think it's a good idea to lift small dogs up as they often get either a) more fearful because they feel insecure, or b) more aggressive because they feel they have elivated status.

One of the best places to socialise would be a dedicated puppy class or a dog class - see if you can find a trainer who appreciates your dilema and will allow you to sit in on a few lessons.

watching is probably the best option for now until she gets a bit more confidence. i had her sitting on the ground before and was advised to have her in my arms as it will supposedly make her feel safer. however she is a springer and 11 weeks old so is getting quite heavey. also i find when she is on the ground and the person just stands there talking to me and ignoring her she is quite happy circling that person sniffing at their legs, but she has the hair on her back raised which i think shows that she is interested but nervous at the same time. do you think its a good idea to let sasha circle and sniff people while they pretend to completely ignore her for the time being of should i keep her some distance away alltogehter for now. and also how will i introduce her to strangers later on when she gets more convidence just watching? i don't want to start over again because of some silly mistake.

At 11 weeks there's still plenty of time to turn this around.  I think the very best thing you can do is register with a GOOD puppy class where she will get plenty of interaction with humans of all sorts, as well as fun with other puppies - most classes take puppies post vaccinations at around 12 weeks.

Hi Marleen - I'd agree with digger - don't lift her up.  I forget who suggested that on the other thread, but I think the pup will feel more in control if she can back away a bit.  She is snapping because she feels forced into a corner (your arms) and can't get away and is threatened by the person petting her.  So put her on the floor to be petted.

As for how you can stop the other person - god, I hate other people sometimes!!!!  Wait till you have a jumping up problem, and then you tell them to move back because she's jumping up, to which they reply 'I don't mind' and keep on patting the dog!!!  They have no idea how one little interaction can affect a dog and what a dog learns from it - to them it's just a one-off thing.

Well, enough ranting about other people.  What I would suggest is - can you get some friends together for a coffee or something at your place, then explain to them what you want to try.  Which will be this: They will leave the house and walk around the block in one direction, with a good space between them.  Then you leave the house with the pup and walk in the other direction.  Each time you meet one of them, they must be very slow moving, give her a treat, let the pup sniff them and NOT pat her (you will have explained all this and the importance of it in your house before you set off).  Keep doing this with everyone walking around the block.  As she grows in confidence you can let them pet her slowly - maybe the first time they will just gently lay their hand on her and then slowly withdraw it and give her a treat.  Don't do full-on heavy patting in one go.  This exercise is a good way to get a lot of reps in a short space of time, to guarantee you won't meet a weirdo like that woman who kissed her, and to totally control the level you progress at.  The only slight drawback is that she will eventually know all these people, but there's a lot you can progress to before then, and if you have, say 4-5 people (try to get at least one man to do it too), then she should begin to generalise what she's learning to all people, not just this bunch.  Then you can go out and about with her to strangers again.

If this idea just seems unachieveable (ie you can't get 4-5 people round your house who are interested in helping you), then you will have to keep going with strangers.  I know it wasn't your fault that she snapped at that stupid woman, but you must also know that every time she snaps at someone, and they look shocked and withdraw from her, she has just been rewarded for snapping.  (The frightening thing went away.)  That means she is more likely to do it again.  So what you have to do at all costs is prevent her getting to the point of needing to snap. 

One thing to remember is - there's no rush.  If someone says they want to stroke her, say 'hang on a minute, I need your help', and explain the whole thing to them - really stress that they must NOT pat her because she's not ready for that yet.  You can even use this woman as an example and say that once you told somebody all this and they deliberately ignored you and it's set things back.  As they give her the treat, you can remind them 'Please don't stroke her', or you can even have another treat ready and lure your dog back behind you a bit after they've given her a treat, to end the encounter.  It's about being one step ahead....

ps Marleen, whereabouts in the country are you based?  I know of one excellent puppy socialisation class, which is just socialisation and not training as such.  (Although they have a follow on class for that.)

i live in ennis, clare, ireland

Hi Marleen - Take a look at this page and see if any of these trainers are near you - most of them offer puppy classes:

http://www.apdt.co.uk/trainers_area.asp?area=Eire

Hi! The reason I suggested (when you posted that at 10 weeks old she was overwhelmed and snapped at a child) that you had her in your arms is that at 10 weeks (as she was then) puppies often haven't completed their injections and shouldn't be on the ground at all! ;) When was her second injection?

When she's safe to be on the ground in public certainly have her there, but let her make the advances to people, not the other way around. Once she's relaxed with them ignoring her, they can start being friendlier - but on no account must you let them overwhelm her. It sounds as if she's not a particularly bold puppy, and any setbacks must be avoided at all costs.

my GSD was 13weks when i got him and he was like this. only he would tuck his tail between his legs and howl if anyone besides me and my family looked at him never mind touching him.

now he will go to strangers and let strangers come to him and fuss him it has taken a month  to sort the problem out.

i find that if you make a big fuss out of it, yu fuel the pups anxiety and so it becomes a vscious circle.

i would make a point of stopping and talking to people and i would let benji sit and wonder up to the people on his own accord and once he was relaxed i alowed peopel to walk to him and now he is fine with it.

if benji becomes scared i dont go all "oh benji come here love are you scared" i ignore the scared behaviour and wait for him to compose him self quietly beofre carrying on with the task in hand.

dogs are very good at reading our body language and if we anticipte they are goign to be scared or new people we tense up. the pup reads this signal and thinks the new person is in fact a threat.

i spent loads of time getting benji more confident with being out and about and i would walk him through busy towns and sit on a bench and lewt him watch peopl ewalk past. intill he realised nothing was going to happen to him.

11 weeks is still very young, and so i would not worry too much that they are not very confident. consentrate on things your pup does liek to do liek playing with faveroute toy at a park and maybe get a friend to join you one day and join in the playing. may ask new people to throw a ball for your pup so your pup can experience the new smalls of peopel with out having to make contact with them. it will come it time.

Hi JG,

Just looked back at the previous thread and see I posted in a similar vein and for exactly the same reasons ;) 

Marlene, as previously advised, it is very important not to pressurise the puppy - she didn't sound like a bold pup before and this latest thread doesn't suggest much has changed.

You have to be very firm, downright rude if necessary, with anyone who attempts to interact with the puppy in a way that you know will frighten her.  You have, as Digger mentions, plenty of time to turn this around but you have to always put the pup's feelings before those of people.  something I find incredibly easy LOL :P

Good luck, Teri :)

well, i did get pretty cross with that weirdo woman and told her that it was a pity that sasha didn't get a chunk out of her pretty nose! she wasn't too happy. sasha is not a bold pup, you're right, just nervous of strangers.she wasn't before until on her second time out anohter woman decided to pull sasha over to her by the lead when sasha wasn't interested in going to her. she just grabbed her lead out of my hands on pulled her( quite roughly) over to her and tried to pet her. obviously by this stage i had control of the lead again and sasha came straight over to me and hid behind me. i don't think i ever spoke to a stranger in a fashion as i did then. but the damage was done. ever since she's nervous of people. it's amazing how much damage ignorance can do.

Our Lab Had what I would call a milder version of your problem, milder because she never snapped at anyone.  At obedience class we were all instructed to meet as many neighbours as possible (similar to a post above) and ask people to give the pooch one treat and then one pet on the head.  Starting with people poochie already knew.  Hah!  Jet still does not like people to touch her on the head, even us. 

Off leash she would rush up to people, barking, then hide behind me.  I called the breeder and she said many dogs have an inbred need to protect their family so wHat Jet was displaying was a "best defense is a good offense" stategy.  I noticed this did not happen with people I knew, or with women as much as men, because I would greet them as if I knew them.  The solution for us was for me to greet everyone, stranger or not, as if they were long time friends.  First I would call Jet to heel so she was not the first to meet these people up close but not put her on the leash.  The theory being that I had to show my dog that it was ME who was in charge, I can look after myself and don't need her help and then also reassure her that those people are OK by pretending to know them.  For meetings like this I did not ask these people to offer a treat or a pet.

Agility training was also recommended to us, the idea being that it works sort of like OUtward Bound does for people.  Gives the dog confidence in their physical ability which spills over into other aspects of their lives.  Jet was old enough (your pup is not, yet) for agility by then and we did it for three years, even won a couple of ribbons, she loved it.  Now, don't get discouraged, because Jet was 6 years old before I noticed her allowing a pet from a stranger without a dog of their own and I don't really know if the agility was responsible or if she just took that long took come around.  I have decided that I just have an atypical Lab who does not want to love everyone to death and that's just the way she is.  At age 12 she still will not allow some strange men to even give her a treat and I don't push it.  But she hasn't barked at anyone for years.

I agree you may have to be very "strong" if necessary regarding people who think they know best. I had to do this recently to someone who insisted on feeding my girl biscuits even after I had asked them to please not do so - the idea that someone thinks they know best, for my dog, makes me fume

I am afraid I was very angry and gave the person concerned a good telling off, explaining exactly why they could not feed her (due to colitis) and left them in no doubt that they could have given her a very upset stomach. It's most unlike me to be angry but at worst such people could make a dog very ill, and as you are finding, can affect their attitude to strangers.

You are your dog's guardian - so much is learnt in these early weeks - you have to be like a mother lioness protecting her cubs :P

Lindsay
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