I am hoping to get a malamute puppy in the future and the parents I am interested in are both what I would call wolf grey and white would the puppies only be this colour or could these parents make other colours

Many thanks

Lorna

Hi Lorna

Colour inheritance in the Arctic breeds is not well understood yet but there are some basic rules which do follow.  Brown pigment is recessive to black so if the parents are the normal black pigmented wolf sables (wolf grey) then they could both carry brown and produce it in the pups.  Also the white which occurs in the breed is a recessive so this could also crop up.  Black in Malamutes is unlikely to be the usual one found in gundogs, German Spitz etc and could be just a darker version of wolf sable as this pattern does come in many different guises throughout breeds.  Maybe someone in Mals could say if blacks occur in Wolf sable x wolf sable?

The most likely colour of course is wolf sable of various shades with possible chance of brown wolf sable (referred to as red in the breed I believe) and solid white.

Julie

>> ... if the parents are the normal black pigmented wolf sables (wolf grey)

>> The most likely colour of course is wolf sable of various shades with possible chance of brown wolf sable (referred to as red in the breed I believe) and solid white.

Julie - Wolf Sable and Wolf Grey are actually two different colours :) Sables have the red factor evident in their coats where as Greys do not. Thus the most likely colour is Wolf Grey and White. If the original poster is in the UK then there will not be any solid whites in the litter as we do not have that colour over here (the only one I remember was an import). If people are selling solid whites in the UK then they will not be pure bred Mals.

>>  Black in Malamutes is unlikely to be the usual one found in gundogs, German Spitz etc and could be just a darker version of wolf sable

As I mentioned above, Sables have the red factor evident so thus Black is not just a darker version of Sable (as Blacks do not have any red factor evident).

>>Wolf Sable and Wolf Grey are actually two different colours

Ah that's the problem with breed terminology!  Genetically they are the same (Aw) wolf sable is normally just another term for wolf grey.

>>Sables have the red factor evident in their coats where as Greys do not

Interesting if you can see a difference in brown carriers (if this is what you are saying?) as this hasn't been noted before AFAIK.

The seal is interesting too.  Do you get these from wolf grey x wolf grey (or WS)?

Julie

>> Genetically they are the same (Aw) wolf sable is normally just another term for wolf grey

Aw is the locus that produces the distinctive colouring of a Malamute (ie the ligher underneath, legs etc and the colouring on top). It is thought that malamutes only carry the Aw locus and no other in the A series. It is also thought that this gene has modifiers that act on it to cause the differing shades, from Alaskan Seal (Black guard hairs but a lighter undercoat), to Wolf Grey (Grey guard hairs with a light undercoat and also for Red (which causes the differences between the darker and lighter Reds). We do not see true Black dogs over here (ie Black guard hairs with a Black undercoat) The majority of our Blacks are actually Seal. The Sabling effect is thought to be the result of a polygene.

>> Interesting if you can see a difference in brown carriers (if this is what you are saying?) as this hasn't been noted before AFAIK.

No sorry this isn't what I was saying - Sables can be either BB or Bb (as far as I am aware). As mentioned above it is thought to be a polygene that causes the Sabling. If a Malamute is BB or Bb then they will have a Black/Seal/Grey/Sable Coat and if they are bb then they will be Red. A Grey dog can carry the Red gene but this can not be seen in their coat.

>> The seal is interesting too.  Do you get these from wolf grey x wolf grey (or WS)?

Yes - as far as I am aware you can get Seals from Grey x Grey matings :)

>>It is thought that malamutes only carry the Aw locus and no other in the A series

Ah yes this is what I thought......so genetically they are all wolf sables (except the whites), even the "reds" :-)   BTW Aw is an allele of the Agouti locus not a locus in itself.

The blacks and seals could possibly be At (tanpoints) especially if these occur from grey x grey.  The Agouti locus is being sequenced right now so we will know very soon.

Thanks for your answers :-)

>> Ah yes this is what I thought......so genetically they are all wolf sables (except the whites), even the "reds"    BTW Aw is an allele of the Agouti locus not a locus in itself.

Yes I know that Aw is an allele of the A locus, just was typing in a hurry :) Is Ay not Sable and Aw Agouti? Thus all Malamutes are Agouti and not Sable :)

>> The blacks and seals could possibly be At (tanpoints) especially if these occur from grey x grey.  The Agouti locus is being sequenced right now so we will know very soon.

From the research that has been done into Malamute coat colour genetics, it has pointed to the probability that we only have the Aw allele in the breed (as I wrote above). Though I am also very interested in seeing the results when they are published.

>>Is Ay not Sable and Aw Agouti?

Ay is sable yes.  Aw (w is for wolf) is called either wolf sable or wolf grey.  Some geneticist use Ag in place of Aw and call it agouti.  This does make it confusing as the locus is called Agouti.....even geneticist can't agree on terminolgy sometimes :-)

>>From the research that has been done into Malamute coat colour genetics, it has pointed to the probability that we only have the Aw allele in the breed

Another theory on this is the presence of a gene known as domino which acts on At (tanpoint) to produce a lighter pattern with the typical facial patterns found in the Arctic breeds.  This gene occurs in some of the sighthounds and in my own breed the Finnish Lapphund where a very Malamutey type pattern sometimes emerges from two tanpoint parents.  Not possible if this pattern is exclusively Aw.

If they are all Aw then there is a range of modifiers controlling the distribution of light/dark hairs and the shade of phaeomelanin pigment found in the undercoat, underside of body and face to give the variation found in the breed.

Julie

>> Ay is sable yes.  Aw (w is for wolf) is called either wolf sable or wolf grey.  Some geneticist use Ag in place of Aw and call it agouti.  This does make it confusing as the locus is called Agouti.....even geneticist can't agree on terminolgy sometimes :)

Yes this is what I thought :) In all texts I have read Ay is classed as Sable and Aw Agouti/Wolf/Wild, but yes I agree it can get a little confusing sometimes as the locus is also called Agouti :D

>> Another theory on this is the presence of a gene known as domino which acts on At (tanpoint) to produce a lighter pattern with the typical facial patterns found in the Arctic breeds.  This gene occurs in some of the sighthounds and in my own breed the Finnish Lapphund where a very Malamutey type pattern sometimes emerges from two tanpoint parents.  Not possible if this pattern is exclusively Aw.

>> If they are all Aw then there is a range of modifiers controlling the distribution of light/dark hairs and the shade of phaeomelanin pigment found in the undercoat, underside of body and face to give the variation found in the breed.

From an article I read, it pointed to the fact that the C locus could possibly have an effect on (with the presence of modifiers) the different facial markings within the breed. It is thought that this locus may also be responsible for the difference in colour between Seals and Greys :)

>>From an article I read, it pointed to the fact that the C locus could possibly have an effect on (with the presence of modifiers) the different facial markings within the breed. It is thought that this locus may also be responsible for the difference in colour between Seals and Greys

C locus can only influence the phaeomelanin shade (except albinism which isn't involved here), not the distribution of black or brown pigment.  It can lighten, probably in combination with other genes, the areas that are tan/cream to such an extent that they appear white.  If the only difference between seals and greys is the phaeomelanin shade, then yes it could but I suspect your seals have more dark pigment than greys?  Modifiers, inherited separately to any other locus, and other loci will be responsible for distribution of dark pigment.

julie

Hi Lorna,

It is possible for the parents to produce other colours, though it is most likely that the litter will be Wolf Grey & White. As Julie mentioned, if both the parents carry the recessive red gene it is possible to get some Red & Whites in the litter. Also without knowing their lines, they could possibly also produce Seal & White pups.

PM Sent :)

Hi lorna...
would just like to say our kai's mum is grey/white and his dad is red/white.... and our kai ... well he's black/white :-) his littermates were all either black, red or grey. so you never know, as someone else said it depends what colour grandparents etc where aswell. :D

Jane,

Does Kai have a lighter undercoat? If this is the case he is actually a Seal :) We have very few (if any) true Black dogs in the UK.

ice_cosmos...

what colour is "seal" then ? is it a greyish colour?
his top coat is black and white, his under coat is slightly lighter than the top.he is registered on his kc papers as a black n white. which makes sense to me as you can only see black and white colours on him :-)

Hi there,

Alaskan Seal is where the guard hairs are black but the undercoat is a lighter colour (white or cream). My bitch is a Seal, the undercoat on the top of her back is a dark grey but it gets lighter the further you progress down her body.

A true Black & White would have a Black or very dark Grey undercoat :) As I stated previously there are very few (if any) true Black & White Malamutes in this country.

To be honest it doesn't matter what they are registered as, my bitch is also registered as a Black & White but she is most definately a Seal. At 5 weeks old when the litter is registered, it could be hard to differentiate, so the majority of dogs registered in this country as Black & Whites are more often Seal as they mature.

HTH

Excellent website for all things Malamute including colours is here :

TexAlMal

thanks for the link melody, very informative :-)

ice cosmos
thanks for the explantion on colours. from what you have said and from the info on the website mel posted, i have checked kai's undercoat again this morning. it definately is a darker shade of grey underneath all the black guard hairs.no sign of white/cream. so going by that then i do have a black and white and not a seal ( just aswell as ive nowhere for a swimming pool lol :D )

Can I possibly ask what Kai's lines are? PM me if you like - I'm curious now :D

i have pm'd you ice_cosmos :-)

Many thanks - I have replied :)